Thoughts on fuel economy

[JoJo35]

Before I fell into my present career, I had a career in the automotive safety field where I was able to apply my engineering background. I've always had interest in automotive design and development. I've also always been aware of efficiency since I used to be an SCCA member, where I raced a sports car almost every weekend at area tracks.

As this is a very cosmopolitan membership here, I wanted to throw some thoughts out there concerning fuel economy, and listen to what other educated members might have to say about the current state of affairs.

I apologize if some of my observations may sound, well, opinionated, but I'm going to say what I feel nonetheless. As I live in the United States, I'm expecting to hear some ideas which are very different from my own.

It seems to me that the American population in general has become fat and lazy, which is obviously reflected in the cars we drive. I've observed, over the past thirty years or so, cars here becoming larger and heavier, with the resulting fuel economy suffering. During the gas crises of the early seventies, automobile companies quickly redesigned their stables, and offered cars which were significantly smaller and efficient. It was "stylish" to be green. I can remember development of solar panels and wind farms, among other ideas focusing on preservation and efficiency.

Then, the gas crises was over, and it seems to me, greed took over. Cars knelt by the wayside for Suv's, and everything became "supersized". Manufacturer's, concerned only with their profit margins, pushed these monstrosities, and of course people followed like sheep. I've always known how dangerous these vehicles were. As a motor sports enthusiast, I was always aware of a thing called "center of gravity" which of course on Suv's is particularly high when compared to track width. The results are predictable: rollovers and ejections, many times ending with the death or serious injury of the driver or passengers.

Not only that, these vehicles are always advertised in commercials climbing mountain paths, or in other circumstances they most likely would never encounter with the average driver. But, look at it this way, the company could make a bigger profit margin by adding more equipment!

Now it seems everyone who bought these vehicles is suffering, and the fuel crises is ruining their life (or so they say). The latest stop-gap is the "hybrid". Here's a technology that's basically the same idea that was used in submarines fifty years ago. Instead of making a vehicle lighter, and with a direct injection diesel engine, manufacturers are again striving for that profit margin by pushing "hybrid" to the unknowing. Some of these vehicles are complete beasts, and even heavier than their gasoline powered twins.

Then there is the fuel itself. Instead of the government pushing diesels and lighter vehicles, we now have 10% ethanol added to gasoline. I'm sure everyone is aware what this has done to the corn industry (and price), but there is another very important issue: btu's. The simple fact is that alcohol does not have the same energy released upon ignition as pure gasoline does. To you and me, it means that our gasoline engines are less efficient, resulting in poor fuel economy. Result: we burn more gas (which costs more too because of this added process)

Here's some interesting info I've found:

In the year 1934, a government program was enacted that would support a

[b16a2]

If you eliminate toll roads, then this may have the opposite affect as it makes travelling cheaper. Therefore more people will be able to use such roads and therefore it could increase the number of road users, instead of opting for alternative methods of travel.

A policy on turning of ones engine would be sufficient to prevent people sitting in car parks eating their food. It's not the drive throgh service that creates the problem, it's peoples lack of awareness.

I would suggest making it more beneficial to people to opt for cheaper to run cars. Tax incentives and cuts on more efficient cars, placing a higher rate of tax on SUV's, which are pointless in my opinion for the average person!

Not only is it the type of car that one drives, but also the way in which they drive it. Some kind of educational flyer or campaign etc... would be very beneficial in order to teach people how to get the most from their petrol.

I have seen recently that Honda has developed a Hydrogen powered car which will be leased to a minority of people in the coming years. perhaps this could be the revolution that we are waiting for, what it will do to the economy and political make up of the world, I dont know....

[cornerstone]

We have electronic tolls here. The car just goes 'beep' as you speed through.

Actually, the beep is a bit of a strange thrill. Beep, my bank account just got hit up. Beep, there is goes again.

Last week Top Gear did a thing where they put a Prius up against a BMW M3 for fuel efficiency to prove the point that it's how you drive, not what you drive that can make the biggest difference.

[longshot]

americans are generally spoiled, and lazy

when i was young and seriously racing motorcycles my family owned smallish dodge vans, with 6 cylinder engines and a three speed manual trans. we covered all of the west coast and every year made trips to daytona, talledega in alabama and loudon new hampshire, all from northern california. it was not totally comfortable but was an adventure and part of the fun!

now i race some vintage motocross (in the +50 class) and when i go out to the OHV park about 35 miles away i see families with a 30' 'toy hauler' towed behind a double cab 1 ton four wheel drive truck, or a giant suburban or expedition. hauling two bikes and gear? and everyone is complaining about races they can't afford to go to because of gas cost?

i haul my CZ and husky on a lightweight open 2 rail trailer behind my... saab

not as comfortable as carrying your whole house with you. and i eat sandwiches and fruit instead of cooking a meal. and have to change into and out of my riding gear outside(!!!!!). and i get 30mgp wherever i go

these people have better gear and more 'stuff' than the world and national champions did in the 70's, just to go playride...

dumb

[fakemaster]

I love these threads!

[JohnG]

It is normal for people to desire large comfortable cars. Cheap fuel makes these cars a realistic option for many people. That is why I am thrilled fuel prices are so high. The current spike in oil prices will stimulate innovation in new alternative energy sources and force manufacturers to increase efficiencies in new cars. The market is the best solution to this problem - only when prices are high will the public demand highly efficient designs and be willing to pay a premium for them. Give them dollar a gallon gas and generally they don't give a [censored].

To increase fuel economy in your current vehicle:

Check air pressure in tires every time you fill the tank.

Have all regularly scheduled servicing.

Do not accelerate or brake abruptly. Accelerate slowly and smoothly and let the car coast when you see traffic slowing.

Use cruise control on the highway.

Avoid excessive idling.

Remove excess weight from vehicle. According to the U.S. Dept. of Energy, every 100 lbs of excess weight reduces economy by 2% in the average vehicle.

Carpool whenever possible.

[Johnkaz]

I have noticed in recent weeks the roads over here are generally becoming much quieter, I believe people are really thinking about if they need to use their cars.

I am currently paying

[HauteHippie]

My thoughts on fuel economy: I want more. I test drove a Mini Cooper S the other day and loved that little thing! It's quick and corners on rails. I felt like I could make a U-turn at 90 MPH in it! It seems like a great commuter car while being very fun at the same time. The '09 S model is said to get 37 MPG as well.

What do you guys think of the Mini Cooper?

[baglc1]

This is my solution for the UK, i was stopped in traffic, idleing, wasting fuel going nowhere surrounded by 50t trucks. These monsters should be made to go on night shift to move freight around the country, the only time trucks over 10t should be allowed on the motorways is between the times of 2230h until 0530h then they remove themselves. They would easy reach their destination on time, and every person who drive cars and works between the hours 0600h and 2000h would get to work on time with no traffic jams.

Lets split then into two groups, pay the truck drivers a bit more for the night shift hours and everybody would be happier travelling.

[Daytona4me]

With the increase in fuel prices I have was finally held accountable for my non caring attitude towards a fuel that WILL run out at some point. I was also forced to educate myself on alternative fuels which have many many problems that go undiscussed because it is not the popular thing to do.

E85, ethanol ,, made from corn,, does not get better gas mileage, has driven the cost of corn higher, has decreased the exported amount of this staple food to many in improvised areas of the world that need this food. Ohh... and it is several times worse for the environment than the fossil fuel that we burn in regular cars.

You are better off buying a used car than purchasing a new hybrid. It will save the environment more because the environmental damage of MAKING the car has already been paid for when purchasing the used vehicle.

Fuel cell is another topic.. and the list goes on.

As far as fuel costs,,, No new refineries in the US in a long time, oil drilling, we will pay large prices until all gone,, hope we can strap a saddle on the polar bear and drive it around. Arctic wildlife refuge, because our Oceans and Sprawling hills and meadows are not a refuge.

We also have on guy running for president that is making a campaign slogan about high fuel costs, yet his party has had control of the house and senate for several years now and has done absolutely nothing with the power.. lol.. Most of the time the truth is found on page 147 on cnn.com (not the front page)

I just traded both of my vehicles in this week, I got rid of 2 V-8 vehicles (Z-71 Silverado and Impala SS) to get a new Z71 with active fuel management which cuts the cylinders in 1/2 when at cruising speeds. Also bought a v6 G6. Still spoiled but using less fuel than before.

I do not cry about fuel costs because I know what our Canadian and EU friends pay for theirs. The bad thing is that the US has abandoned the RailRoad as a mass transit option. We did have a decent infrastructure but rail was pulled up because it was deemed unsafe (through media and local government brainwashing) The East coast of the US is better than the Midwest and the West coast with rail infrastructure. This is a classic example of American leaders not thinking ahead like we should except for when it is a hot button issue (the environment) that will help win elections.

[chronology1066]

Just borrow the UK government, you wont be able to afford fuel anyway Current price is about $12.25 a gallon...... and diesel is about 20% more expensive at the pumps

[JohnG]

As far as fuel costs,,, No new refineries in the US in a long time, oil drilling, we will pay large prices until all gone,

Prices will come down again but it may take a while.

As we speak higher oil price effects can be divided into two basic categories:

Innovation - as during the price shock in the 70's high prices will stimulate innovation and research and development in alternative energy sources and more efficient energy consumption - i.e. hybrid cars, intelligent appliances, and low consumption lighting. People and technologies will adapt to find more efficient ways to use a scarce resource.

Exploration and extraction - also as in the 70's the new high prices will (and already are) sustain a boom in exploration and the exploitation of deposits already known but until now too expensive to reach. At $50 a barrel a particular extraction technology (shale oil) or physical location (very deep ocean floor) might not be cost effective to develop, but at $140 a barrel it becomes extremely lucrative. So as yet untapped deposits will be developed rapidly over the next five years.

So, at the same time the development of alternative energy sources and gains in efficiencies through technological advances are lowering demand for crude oil, the exploitation of new deposits will increase production and refining capacity will be expanded thus increasing supply. The result will be a steady drop in prices such as we saw from the late 70's right through the 90's.

My only hope is that the higher prices remain with us long enough to effect some serious change in both conservation technologies and societal attitudes towards responsible energy use.

[southcoast68]

I had an interesting conversation a few weeks ago at a Ford dealership. I brought my Mustang (6 Cyl.) in for a scheduled oil change and when I got there, I noticed I had parked next to a F150 4X4 truck. Not thinking anything about it, I went into the waiting room while they took my car into service. A minute later, one of the techs came out and the guy at the counter handed over the keys for the F150 and said "you got another one". He then told me that that was the fourth F-series truck they processed as a trade in that morning! This was Saturday, and I imagine they save this kind of work for times where the service department is not so busy, so it may have been four F-series trucks over a period of a few days, but still, it really brings to light the current state of affairs. He also told me they had a customer who traded an Explorer and a Lincoln Town Car in for a Ford Fusion since he could no longer justify the cost of feeding the other two vehicles. I said to him "gee, pretty soon you are going to have a run on Escape Hybrids" and he said they already have. However he also said that Ford is not following through on demand, "people ask about them and we have to say that we have none in stock, so they go up the road and buy a Toyota Prius".

For those members here that may be more familiar with the auto industry and technology, my opinoins may be total rubbish, feel free to chime in with added input as this will turn into a interesting discussion.

I personally don't feel that we as citizens of the US have not nearly done enough and I agree with the opinions on how Americans have turned fat and lazy. Of coure we want it all while investing the minimum amount of work and effort. I think the average American who pays in the neighborhood of $400 a month for a car payment probably feels "hey, as long as I'm paying that a month, I might as well have a large luxury or performance vehicle with a V8 and all the luxuries of home". Of course, this mode of thinking only gets us into financial trouble again and again. I'm no different, your talking to a guy who grew up around big V8 Detroit iron, owned many V8 trucks and cars as everyday transportation, and I even still have my old '68 Mustang with 428c.i. V8 sitting in the garage (its doesn't go far these days), but I know I'm going to have to change.

Many probabbly feel as though something needs to be done to curb or reduce fuel prices, and I'll bet that many are looking to next year when we know who the new president will be, and look to him for some relief, although I don't believe it will happen. First off, over the past few years, the American people have been made to believe that $2.99 is cheap when this figure would have been considered sky high just a couple of years before. Most realize that depending on where they live, they rely on thier car for transportation and will pay the freight because they have to, and big business realizes this. Its not the actual cost of bringing the fuel to you, its what the market drives the price to, they charge you that much because they know they can.

I also do not believe that opening up drilling closer to home or dipping into the strategic reserve would do any good to lower costs at the pump for the above mentioned reason, the market is controlling the price. Nor do I beilieve that the price will or should go down, I only think we can hope for a stabilization at where it is now and as the economy re-circulates, peoples wages catch up to the current costs of fuel and everything else it effects. The previous statement may not be very popular with some, but consider the following. Only when the avarage person feels that its back is against the wall will they do anything to change, whether is it eating less, excersising more, or learning to modify habits to save fuel. We in the US were faced with the same problems in the early seventies, we reacted, saved some fuel, and then forgot all the lessons learned when the eighties hit and people started to find more money in thier pockets and more credit at their disposal. We started buying bigger vehicles again, driving more and looking for more convenience in what we did. As was said before, the drive-thru, although being a big convenience to alot of folks, has been a major contributor to lazyness and wastefullness. More and more traffic on aging roads and no real commitment to better develop mass transit has led to millions of grid locked cars during rush hour, all ideling, with A/C units on wating to get to thier destination. Some may say that more mass transit is a pipe dream, but we can send folks to outer space to build a space station, we can spend billions protecting our interests over seas, why do we have such a problem maintaining and enhancing the infrastructure that helped this country grow in the first place? If the price of a gallon of gas went back down to just $2.75 a gallon, this conversation and all the banter of finding alternate fuels and conservation would be lost in a heartbeat.

We gotta realize we are doing it to ourselves and that this old story will never go away until we change our ways. I don't know how to do that yet so I am not saying I have all the answers, but I do feel that things will have to change somehow. Lets start tomorrow by taking a lunch to work, or walking down to the favorite lunch spot instead of driving there. Lets slow down a bit on the highways and let our engines breathe a little easier, lets try to change gasoline to something we choose to use when we want, not something we require everyday.

I guess the one good thing about watches is that they take no gasoline, wether rep or gen, and a lot of them make thier own perpetual energy.

[Pugwash]

What do you guys think of the Mini Cooper?

A friend of mine drove me round Paris in one. Very nippy, much fun. In a city, this sort of car is king (second to the ace of a decent motorbike/scooter, obviously).

[JohnG]

My thoughts on fuel economy: I want more. I test drove a Mini Cooper S the other day and loved that little thing! It's quick and corners on rails. I felt like I could make a U-turn at 90 MPH in it! It seems like a great commuter car while being very fun at the same time. The '09 S model is said to get 37 MPG as well.

What do you guys think of the Mini Cooper?

I'm with Pugwash - very cool little car!

[baltic]

On a recent holiday in Canada we hired the smallest camper van the company offered which turned out to be a 5.7l V8!!! (I nearly passed out when I opened the bonnet to check the oil and saw the sticker on the cylinder head) In Europe it'd be a 2.5l diesel.

Currently I drive a 2.0 TDI VW Golf that comfortably does 50+ mpg (Imperial). I've noticed people are driving less and/or noticeably slower now.

[HauteHippie]

Currently I drive a 2.0 TDI VW Golf that comfortably does 50+ mpg (Imperial). I've noticed people are driving less and/or noticeably slower now.

I had my eye on a Jetta TDI years ago and then The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia promptly made them "49 state" legal. But I've read some articles indicating that highly efficient 50 state legal diesel sedans are right around the corner in '09 or '10.