RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) One of the brands that brought most of us here is the pioneer of that. I'm not going to boycott them over it, although maybe many have. He who controls the game makes the rules. If you are a Rolex dealer and you sell for less than they want you too they will pull your ticket so fast it will make your head spin. Going out of business? Cash flow tight? Making room for 09' stock? Too bad. Sell for under 10% off retail (or discount at all for some flagship stores) and we will come and clean you out tomorrow. I happens too. I have heard those stories from other AD's and I know many more have too. I think we have to try and stop putting this little rep biz in a vacuum. It is just like Switzerland in many respects. Reps are sort of a luxury item in themselves which will be subject to the same sort of price pressures but just with less zeros. Think of the makers as Rolex and Josh and Andrew as their henchmen and junior partners in for a piece. It really isn't as sinister as many would have us believe. Plus, I spent many years in Hawaii myself and you should all take to heart what Lani said about Asian business culture. I found that all to be true - at least in my limited experience... Of course I would never defend 'price fixing'- however, it is a fact of life in any business involving merchandise- the manufactures always dictate the highest and lowest prices, and the sellers are always held to a certain level of sales. All of the items we purchase through our associations on this board all come from a very limited number of actual manufacturers, in spite of claims that 'my copy is special because it is lubricated with REAL goat semen-' or other ridiculous claim. As such, if one dealer were to suddenly begin to drastically undersell others, it would hurt the business of the others, ultimately driving some out of the business (and lets face it, we are not an easy lot- anybody heard from Eddie lately??) I have been a customer of Andrews for some time, and have been very happy with the transactions. I accept the price fixing which happens as a natural consequence of the business. In a grey/black market endeavor such as this, that we are offered any level of customer service is a miracle, and if the prices are a little higher- so be it. You can throw them off the board, but there is nothing new about this type of practice, and it will continue whether they are on RWI or not- and still get plenty of business. -O BTW- Andrew fixed my ROO in 5 days without a hitch. Try getting that from an AD. Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) It is my understanding that the wholesale part of the biz is the largest. The suppliers closest to the makers like Josh and Andrew sell wholesale quantity to other retailers with bulk orders. Many of these are likely the so-called "scam dealers" everyone always talks about. Not to go off on another tangent, but let's face it, one of the definitions of a "scam" dealer is one that sells Noob Subs for a grand or something. Many of them are not really scams, but rather just sites that pay to have a strong search engine power and simply charge a lot for watches. That is the big biz for higher end reps and the sales are huge compared to ours. Remember, there are many satisfied customers who never find these boards who bought Noob Subs for a grand around the globe. To them it is an awesome copy for 1/5th the price. I think I agree. It only becomes a scam if you find out that it is possible to buy it for $200. One could say that about almost any legitimate product as well. Like say a goose down comforter or something. If you buy it on Rodeo for a thousand or on Overstock for $200, it is still the same comforter. Middle men making profits or retailers with high overhead is not a scam... Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) I would so love it if Josh was a majority shareholder in Swatch. How cool would that be...Funny... Sure there is. There is also a chance that he's a majority shareholder in the Swatch group and is artificially inflating Swiss watch prices to create increased demand for reps. Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 One of the brands that brought most of us here is the pioneer of that. I'm not going to boycott them over it, although maybe many have. He who controls the game makes the rules. If you are a Rolex dealer and you sell for less than they want you too they will pull your ticket so fast it will make your head spin. Going out of business? Cash flow tight? Making room for 09' stock? Too bad. Sell for under 10% off retail (or discount at all for some flagship stores) and we will come and clean you out tomorrow. I happens too. I have heard those stories from other AD's and I know many more have too. I think we have to try and stop putting this little rep biz in a vacuum. It is just like Switzerland in many respects. Reps are sort of a luxury item in themselves which will be subject to the same sort of price pressures but just with less zeros. Think of the makers as Rolex and Josh and Andrew as their henchmen and junior partners in for a piece. It really isn't as sinister as many would have us believe. Plus, I spent many years in Hawaii myself and you should all take to heart what Lani said about Asian business culture. I found that all to be true - at least in my limited experience... It's not quite the same though, as with the ADs, it would be Rolex themselves who take the action. To keep with your analogy, this would be like one AD, saying to another AD, put your prices to the same as ours, or we'll make sure you lose your supply of Rolexes... It's nothing more than petty bully-boy strong-arm tactics, and not the kind of behaviour which should be tolerated from people who are held in positions of esteem and trust. As mentioned before, there was the evidence of the Little White Lies, and nothing was done. This is something else quite different, but equally disturbing, particularly as it involves the same dealers. How much more leeway do these guys actually deserve? Not to intentionally Godfrey myself, but c'mon, when Hitler rolled into Poland, did nations sit back and let him, or, did they say 'Not on our watch...' and actually do something about it? Are the UN letting Mugabe get away with his political machinations, or, are they imposing sanctions against him? RWI have done something about it. They've drawn the line in the sand, it's time for us as a community, and these forums, as our 'nations', to stand behind them and back their sanctions. Enough is enough. There are plenty of dealers out there who will not lie to buyers or intentionally misrepresent their product. People do not need the Cartel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Think of the makers as Rolex and Josh and Andrew as their henchmen and junior partners in for a piece. It really isn't as sinister as many would have us believe. No, don't think of them like that. If the Factories did indeed set the prices, this would be the case. However, it's our dealers (our trusted dealers, our friends) who are setting the prices and trying to bully the factories into not selling to their competitors unless they are forced to match their retail prices. Having said that, how many people get discount from J&A? More than you'd suspect. They're forcing other dealers to match their prices so they can undercut themselves through the back channels. It's all very weaselesque. If only they could be more honest; they'd be better off and we'd be better off. One observation about us westerners not understanding the Asian way of business. Yes, this is true, however it points to an even greater truth: The Asian dealers simply do not have any comprehension of how to do business in the west. Two alien cultures trying to impose their own systems on each other without the slightest willingness to learn how the other works or consider compromise. It's a head-butting competition where even if you win, your head still hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Not to intentionally Godfrey myself, but c'mon, when Hitler [...] Godwin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) Sorry but I have to disagree. All the best reps you probably own right now are projects of the cartel. The 1:1 watches are purchased by Josh and Andrew and they partner with the factory by funding the project with the base watches and help in paying for an enormous amount of CNC equipment. You may not need "THE" cartel, but if you want those watches you will need "A" cartel. Someone has to front these projects and keep its ear to the pavement to see what watches to buy and replicate based on estimated demand. The factories need J&A for that. Plus, in the future because of all this J&A and their factories will be doing more exclusive projects that just won't be available to other dealers unless they partner with another factory in the same way. You have only seen the tip of the iceberg as to what is going to happen with exclusivity and price fixing... It's not quite the same though, as with the ADs, it would be Rolex themselves who take the action. To keep with your analogy, this would be like one AD, saying to another AD, put your prices to the same as ours, or we'll make sure you lose your supply of Rolexes... It's nothing more than petty bully-boy strong-arm tactics, and not the kind of behaviour which should be tolerated from people who are held in positions of esteem and trust. As mentioned before, there was the evidence of the Little White Lies, and nothing was done. This is something else quite different, but equally disturbing, particularly as it involves the same dealers. How much more leeway do these guys actually deserve? Not to intentionally Godfrey myself, but c'mon, when Hitler rolled into Poland, did nations sit back and let him, or, did they say 'Not on our watch...' and actually do something about it? Are the UN letting Mugabe get away with his political machinations, or, are they imposing sanctions against him? RWI have done something about it. They've drawn the line in the sand, it's time for us as a community, and these forums, as our 'nations', to stand behind them and back their sanctions. Enough is enough. There are plenty of dealers out there who will not lie to buyers or intentionally misrepresent their product. People do not need the Cartel... Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 It is my understanding that the wholesale part of the biz is the largest. The suppliers closest to the makers like Josh and Andrew sell wholesale quantity to other retailers with bulk orders. Many of these are likely the so-called "scam dealers" everyone always talks about. Not to go off on another tangent, but let's face it, one of the definitions of a "scam" dealer is one that sells Noob Subs for a grand or something. Many of them are not really scams, but rather just sites that pay to have a strong search engine power and simply charge a lot for watches. That is the big biz for higher end reps and the sales are huge compared to ours. Remember, there are many satisfied customers who never find these boards who bought Noob Subs for a grand around the globe. To them it is an awesome copy for 1/5th the price. I think I agree. It only becomes a scam if you find out that it is possible to buy it for $200. One could say that about almost any legitimate product as well. Like say a goose down comforter or something. If you buy it on Rodeo for a thousand or on Overstock for $200, it is still the same comforter. Middle men making profits or retailers with high overhead is not a scam... No, it is not. But, selling a comfoter described as containing goose down, when it infact contains horsehair, would be a bait and switch tactic, so not acceptable either. Or, selling a goose down comforter, taking the money from the customer, and never despatching the comforter. No one is saying that Jandrew have 'scammed' customers, but that they have previously intentionally lied about the nature of their products, and, in this particular instance, are trying to strong-arm smaller rep dealers into increasing their own prices, just so they will not lose out on sales to a cheaper dealer. Those are not business tactics which should be tollerated from people who are placed in the position of trust, which they are, as being 'recommended' by the forums as trustworthy. For the record, I feel sorry for Joshua that he has also been banned on account of Andrew's behaviour, but, I do agree with the reasoning behind it: They do have close business ties, and, as the saying goes, if someone lies down with a dog, they should not be surprized when they get fleas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Godwin. Godfrey, Godwin, same difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 All the best reps you probably own right now are projects of the cartel. The 1:1 watches are purchased by Josh and Andrew and they partner with the factory by funding the project with the base watches and help in paying for an enormous amount of CNC equipment. Are you absolutely sure of this? All the best reps? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Sorry but I have to disagree. All the best reps you probably own right now are projects of the cartel. The 1:1 watches are purchased by Josh and Andrew and they partner with the factory by funding the project with the base watches and help in paying for an enormous amount of CNC equipment. You may not need "THE" cartel, but if you want those watches you will need "A" cartel. Someone has to front these projects and keep its ear to the pavement to see what watches to buy and replicate based on estimated demand. The factories need J&A for that. Plus, in the future because of all this J&A and their factories will be doing more exclusive projects that just won't be available to other dealers unless they partner with another factory in the same way. You have only seen the tip of the iceberg as to what is going to happen with exclusivity and price fixing... I have never spent a penny with a Cartel dealer. If my source happens to use the same factory (and I don't know or care if they do), then so be it. They are simply someone who buys from the same factory. So the Cartel might have (apparently) provided a watch for use in replication... There are also claims that they have not actually provided a watch for replication. Also, this is a deflection of the issue, as my watches and supplier are not the issue here. The issue, is the unnacceptable business practices of the Cartel. There was a case in the UK last week where someone who had received a Royal Honour for their work with children and founding a children's charity, was charged as a child abuser. Did anyone think "Oh, he did all that good work, so what if he copped a feel every now and again..." No. They said that such behaviour was unnacceptable, and actions were taken, and that is how the situation here should be dealt with. Whatever 'good will' Jandrew might have earned in the past, is not to be used as a 'get out of jail free card' when they get caught with their pants down (again) behaving in an unacceptable way (again). As I said before, there is all this talk of inter-forum co-operation. It is time for all forums, and all the members of this community to stand behind RWI and say "no more" to the Cartel's shennanigans. If that means less easy access to Super Reps, so be it. That is the price to pay. As I said before, there are other dealers available other than the Cartel... Both Andrew and Joshua have observed this thread, and both have skulked off without offering so much as a word of explanation or defence for their actions. Open your eyes. They do not care about their reputations with these forums. Their actions prove this repeatedly. It is time to stop turning the other cheek, and time to fight against those who are fighting against us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 J&A's buisness is completely intertwined. To use the Rolex analogy they are more like Rolex employees than retailers. They are partnered with factories and carry out their wishes. They have the real power as their influence at the government level is what allows the biz to operate. Ever wonder why it is that GZ is the center of the rep world with sales openly in the streets and yet no one ever gets busted? Rolex knows it all comes out of GZ but they never seem to be able to do anything about it? Juice my friend. Big money. Big power. As for the horsehair, I haven't been discussing the nature of the products themselves, only the supply chain and who the players are. If you think one-off sales from these forums is the majority of their business you are mistaken. It is importnat but not the biggest part. The best thing thse boards do for them is help them guage interest in watches so that they can choose watches for projects which will likely be big sellers. The role J&A play for the factorTheir biz is high end watches, but the majority are shipped to other retailers in lots of 10-30 pieces and involves major governmental assistance and the factories "juice" to get them out of the country. Everything in China is about power and grease... No, it is not. But, selling a comfoter described as containing goose down, when it infact contains horsehair, would be a bait and switch tactic, so not acceptable either. Or, selling a goose down comforter, taking the money from the customer, and never despatching the comforter. No one is saying that Jandrew have 'scammed' customers, but that they have previously intentionally lied about the nature of their products, and, in this particular instance, are trying to strong-arm smaller rep dealers into increasing their own prices, just so they will not lose out on sales to a cheaper dealer. Those are not business tactics which should be tollerated from people who are placed in the position of trust, which they are, as being 'recommended' by the forums as trustworthy. For the record, I feel sorry for Joshua that he has also been banned on account of Andrew's behaviour, but, I do agree with the reasoning behind it: They do have close business ties, and, as the saying goes, if someone lies down with a dog, they should not be surprized when they get fleas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 J&A's buisness is completely intertwined. To use the Rolex analogy they are more like Rolex employees than retailers. They are partnered with factories and carry out their wishes. They have the real power as their influence at the government level is what allows the biz to operate. Ever wonder why it is that GZ is the center of the rep world with sales openly in the streets and yet no one ever gets busted? Rolex knows it all comes out of GZ but they never seem to be able to do anything about it? Juice my friend. Big money. Big power. As for the horsehair, I haven't been discussing the nature of the products themselves, only the supply chain and who the players are. If you think one-off sales from these forums is the majority of their business you are mistaken. It is importnat but not the biggest part. The best thing thse boards do for them is help them guage interest in watches so that they can choose watches for projects which will likely be big sellers. The role J&A play for the factorTheir biz is high end watches, but the majority are shipped to other retailers in lots of 10-30 pieces and involves major governmental assistance and the factories "juice" to get them out of the country. Everything in China is about power and grease... You're absolutely right there, I wouldn't dispute or argue that at all. The only reason I mentioned the nature of their products, is because it is a previous (and consistent) example of their unacceptable behaviour, which, for reasons known only to others, went un-checked, and was infact tollerated. I was simply pointing out, as a way of illustrating previous conduct, that these two dealers do not have unblemished records, do have a history of lying to and manipulating their clients, and, are not above taking the actions which led to the RWI ban. I'm just sick of seeing members of the community defending and justifying their actions, when their own actions today, prove that they a ) do not deserve such loyalty, and b ) do not even care enough to defend themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) Sure, and that is the choice everyone has to make. You are right. They don't care about these forums other than to stay connected to the retail side of the biz. Selling one-offs and servicing them is a pain in the a*s I'm sure. I wouldn't want to do it either. It will just be interesting to see what anti J&A members will do when a good number of the best reps around are exclusive to them and not available from any other dealer. If they contribute enough money and pre-sales, the factory will continue to grant exclusives as they can get more money that way. If no other dealer can get a watch and they want to charge $700 retail people will pay. If not here then somewhere else. And the factory will just eat that up when they can start getting double for each watch at the wholesale level. It is a no brainer really. Exclusivity=more money at every level and that is where we are headed... I have never spent a penny with a Cartel dealer. If my source happens to use the same factory (and I don't know or care if they do), then so be it. They are simply someone who buys from the same factory. So the Cartel might have (apparently) provided a watch for use in replication... There are also claims that they have not actually provided a watch for replication. Also, this is a deflection of the issue, as my watches and supplier are not the issue here. The issue, is the unnacceptable business practices of the Cartel. There was a case in the UK last week where someone who had received a Royal Honour for their work with children and founding a children's charity, was charged as a child abuser. Did anyone think "Oh, he did all that good work, so what if he copped a feel every now and again..." No. They said that such behaviour was unnacceptable, and actions were taken, and that is how the situation here should be dealt with. Whatever 'good will' Jandrew might have earned in the past, is not to be used as a 'get out of jail free card' when they get caught with their pants down (again) behaving in an unacceptable way (again). As I said before, there is all this talk of inter-forum co-operation. It is time for all forums, and all the members of this community to stand behind RWI and say "no more" to the Cartel's shennanigans. If that means less easy access to Super Reps, so be it. That is the price to pay. As I said before, there are other dealers available other than the Cartel... Both Andrew and Joshua have observed this thread, and both have skulked off without offering so much as a word of explanation or defence for their actions. Open your eyes. They do not care about their reputations with these forums. Their actions prove this repeatedly. It is time to stop turning the other cheek, and time to fight against those who are fighting against us... Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Febus Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 I'd rather have no reps than buy from manipulative price fixing dealers. That's why I stopped buying from the so called cartel at the time of the original revalations and partly the reason I went away from reps for a while. Game over IMO and I wonder whether this site should distance itself from them now and why it didn't before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 ditto febus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Sure, and that is the choice everyone has to make. You are right. They don't care about these forums other than to stay connected to the retail side of the biz. Selling one-offs and servicing them is a pain in the a*s I'm sure. I wouldn't want to do it either. It will just be interesting to see what anti J&A members will do when a good number of the best reps around are exclusive to them and not available from any other dealer. If they contribute enough money and pre-sales, the factory will continue to grant exclusives as they can get more money that way. If no other dealer can get a watch and they want to charge $700 retail people will pay. If not here then somewhere else. And the factory will just eat that up when they can start getting double for each watch at the wholesale level. It is a no brainer really. Exclusivity=more money at every level and that is where we are headed... They will probably decide to either seek alternative sources, or simply go without. Who actually needs a 1:1 super rep anyway? Only dishonest people who want to pass the watch off as genuine to others. Anyone else, who simply has a genuine appreciation for nice watches, and who is not afraid to tell someone they are wearing a rep, will be satisfied by what else is on offer. Also, regardless of the money and pre-sales they may put in, if enough people were to actually stop buying from the Cartel, if the various forums were prepared to actually stand behind RWI and actually ban them from all the forums, then the factories would drop them, because they would want outlets for their product which people are prepared to buy from. That would be the smaller dealers... I'd rather have no reps than buy from manipulative price fixing dealers. That's why I stopped buying from the so called cartel at the time of the original revalations and partly the reason I went away from reps for a while. Game over IMO and I wonder whether this site should distance itself from them now and why it didn't before. I don't 'wonder', I outright think it should, even if it is just as a show of solidarity and inter-forum co-operation. - "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish, and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper, and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Sorry. I don't mean to puff. Not all but a lot recently for sure. The ones that ones to mind are The GMTIIc, The SFSO, The B&R, The Breitling Heritage, The Slevin, The Graham Chronofighter, and the Chopard Miglia off the top of my head. Imagine if all these were exclusive and as such cost the same as the Big Bangs for instance. There would be some pretty pi**ed off people on these boards for sure and I think that exclusivity is right around the corner. All the pieces of that puzzle are in place... Are you absolutely sure of this? All the best reps? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutima Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Sorry. I don't mean to puff. Not all but a lot recently for sure. The ones that ones to mind are The GMTIIc, The SFSO, The B&R, The Breitling Heritage, The Slevin, The Graham Chronofighter, and the Chopard Miglia off the top of my head. Imagine if all these were exclusive and as such cost the same as the Big Bangs for instance. There would be some pretty pi**ed off people on these boards for sure and I think that exclusivity is right around the corner. All the pieces of that puzzle are in place... Those watches you mentioned above are not so exclusive afterall...They are readily available with many dealers after a short while... That was where the price fixing and strong arming small dealers began... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Well I have to disagree there. I have no interest in passing a watch off as a gen. Actually I don't really own a lot of reps right now, but the quality of the 1:1's can't be beat. If you want the best watch for the money those are it. The manufacturing process itself insures the highest possibel quality and those pieces really are a sight to behold for the money. I own the genuine Aquatimer and the genuine SFSO and also had the reps of both and I must say the quality is blinding and absolutely every bit as good as the gen down to the last degree - and it still has visual flaws. By contrast, even the best Rolex and PAM reps not made with the detail of the 1:1 process just don't have that extra "something" that my gens from those two camps IMO. It is the super high tolerance CNC work on each and every piece that makes the difference. They will probably decide to either seek alternative sources, or simply go without. Who actually needs a 1:1 super rep anyway? Only dishonest people who want to pass the watch off as genuine to others. Anyone else, who simply has a genuine appreciation for nice watches, and who is not afraid to tell someone they are wearing a rep, will be satisfied by what else is on offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Sorry. I don't mean to puff. Not all but a lot recently for sure. The ones that ones to mind are The GMTIIc, The SFSO, The B&R, The Breitling Heritage, The Slevin, The Graham Chronofighter, and the Chopard Miglia off the top of my head. Imagine if all these were exclusive and as such cost the same as the Big Bangs for instance. There would be some pretty pi**ed off people on these boards for sure and I think that exclusivity is right around the corner. All the pieces of that puzzle are in place... I neither own, nor would want to own, any of those watches you mentioned... Same goes for the Big Bang. I simply do not like them. Everything I have ever wanted watch-wise, I have been able to source from other dealers. (and, in the past, I have used several, including the infamous Applewave) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Also, regardless of the money and pre-sales they may put in, if enough people were to actually stop buying from the Cartel, if the various forums were prepared to actually stand behind RWI and actually ban them from all the forums, then the factories would drop them, because they would want outlets for their product which people are prepared to buy from. That would be the smaller dealers... I don't 'wonder', I outright think it should, even if it is just as a show of solidarity and inter-forum co-operation. - Blessed is he, who, in the name of charity and good-will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper, and the finder of lost children. Even if banned people will not forget the tt and PC websites, but if people do what is moraly right then J and A will A. Lose the power the have, because that is money, or B. They will see the error of there ways and change the way they have been doing or C. Reinvent them selfs under different names like paul has done on many occasions maybe to make a break from a bad rep. But this all starts with the consumer US, WE have to make the desision of where WE shop and even if banned NOT to go direct to those websites. What the admins of the forums do will not make a differnce until WE act. And Act WE must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Right, but I'm saying that may be about to change with future 1:1 projects and will become exclusive from start to finish. As every one of these 1:1 projects becomes more and more successful, Josh and Andrew gain more power with that factory group by the second... Those watches you mentioned above are not so exclusive afterall...They are readily available with many dealers after a short while... That was where the price fixing and strong arming small dealers began... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Then you are in great shape my friend. I neither own, nor would want to own, any of those watches you mentioned... Same goes for the Big Bang. I simply do not like them. Everything I have ever wanted watch-wise, I have been able to source from other dealers. (and, in the past, I have used several, including the infamous Applewave) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Even if banned people will not forget the tt and PC websites, but if people do what is moraly right then J and A will A. Lose the power the have, because that is money, or B. They will see the error of there ways and change the way they have been doing or C. Reinvent them selfs under different names like paul has done on many occasions maybe to make a break from a bad rep. But this all starts with the consumer US, WE have to make the desision of where WE shop and even if banned NOT to go direct to those websites. What the admins of the forums do will not make a differnce until WE act. And Act WE must. You're absolutely right there, amigo, it is up to us as a community to act. I also feel it is up to the admins of the forums to make good on this inter-forum co-operation, by imposing mutual sanctions on the Cartel. That would be an even bigger blow to their [the Cartel's] crediblity than people saying "I won't buy from them anymore..." All the time the forum admins continue to allow them to operate as 'trusted dealers', in their [the Cartel's eyes], they have won/done no wrong/are untouchable. RWI has drawn the line in the sand, it's time for us all to get behind them as Allies. Then you are in great shape my friend. All I'm trying to illustrate, is that for the most part, most people are satisfied with the majority of available watches. It is only the most die-hard fans (or those who truly feel the need to misrepresent their watches as gen) who crave the Super Reps, and, even then, those are equally available from other sources. TTK claimed he was the only dealer to have the 'NoobMariner', yet, another new dealer has been able to tap into that source as well. I've seen Tony advertising MBK PP Nautilus, with both Asian and Swiss movements. Now, I don't know enough about the MBK PPs to verify that they indeed are MBK PPs, but, I do know that Tony is not a watch enthusiast, does not know the details himself, and relies solely on what his supplier tells him. Now, the Cartel on the other hand, play a (apparently) huge part in the construction of such super reps, yet, the B&R Fiasco showed that they were knowingingly and intentionally mislabelling their products. It's not a month ago that someone pointed out that a watch they bought from Joshua had a different crown to the stock picture, and, the only defense he had for that, was that as a drop-shipper, he did not realize that the new stock had different details to the advertized photo. Personally, I find that line hard to believe, especially from someone who 'plays a major role' with the factories. It may be an uncharitable view on my part, but to me, it just came across as another example of Joshua trying to manipulate a client. (Again) But, given the past actions of the Cartel, I feel my schepticism is not without reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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