pamlover Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have been on these forums for awhile now, and in this rep game for at least 8 years before I found forums. I started buying best quality available reps on Canal St NYC years ago. From what I have read and saw with my own eyes is that Panarai forum and its following is by far the largest on any forum, and there are so many PAM geeks trying to buy those good PAM's, but they all have more issues and defects then Rolex and Breitling super reps still. I hope dealers are watching these forums and super PAM 1:1 reps are on their way, it only would be a good business decision for them to make as many PAM super 1:1 reps from GEN as a sample, and instead they come out with Corum, U-Boat, Grand Carrera, Graham etc. super reps, that have a very small following if any, most people just buy them because they are the closest to gen outhere, and nothing else good is available. BCE, Skyland, SA are all great super reps and I am glad they make them, they now need to make Navitimer and Navitimer World super rep as well.i But I think dealers would make more money selling 99% acurate 111E-G+,112, 005, 196, 88, 127, 217, 104, 183, 190, 233, 232, 177, 253, 000 to name a few. They need to make movts for open case models more acurate with bridge stamping on E-G series and on H+ series movts. I mean come on, they can make a BCE with a lot more complex dials so acurate and so close to gen, and they can't get the font size and spacing right on 104 and 111 dials?! How hard would it be to make better bridges with better blue stamping of OP on H series movts or like gen stamping of E series movts on E series movt using high beat clones? I just hope they are making these movts as we speak to put in these reps that are now out of stock due to movements shortages, otherwise they are missing out on a lot of cash from us. It takes a good crown, super C3 lume, correct crown and CG with flush lever pin and correct casebacks on them and sell them for $450 so you do not have to do any mods after sale, people would scoop them up like hot cakes. Chime in if you have any inside info on super pam reps coming up, since I see Cartel is pumping out new super reps at least one once a week now.. How is with me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhben Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have been on these forums for awhile now, and in this rep game for at least 8 years before I found forums. I started buying best quality available reps on Canal St NYC years ago. From what I have read and saw with my own eyes is that Panarai forum and its following is by far the largest on any forum, and there are so many PAM geeks trying to buy those good PAM's, but they all have more issues and defects then Rolex and Breitling super reps still. I hope dealers are watching these forums and super PAM 1:1 reps are on their way, it only would be a good business decision for them to make as many PAM super 1:1 reps from GEN as a sample, and instead they come out with Corum, U-Boat, Grand Carrera, Graham etc. super reps, that have a very small following if any, most people just buy them because they are the closest to gen outhere, and nothing else good is available. BCE, Skyland, SA are all great super reps and I am glad they make them, they now need to make Navitimer and Navitimer World super rep as well.i But I think dealers would make more money selling 99% acurate 111E-G+,112, 005, 196, 88, 127, 217, 104, 183, 190, 233, 232, 177, 253, 000 to name a few. They need to make movts for open case models more acurate with bridge stamping on E-G series and on H+ series movts. I mean come on, they can make a BCE with a lot more complex dials so acurate and so close to gen, and they can't get the font size and spacing right on 104 and 111 dials?! How hard would it be to make better bridges with better blue stamping of OP on H series movts or like gen stamping of E series movts on E series movt using high beat clones? I just hope they are making these movts as we speak to put in these reps that are now out of stock due to movements shortages, otherwise they are missing out on a lot of cash from us. It takes a good crown, super C3 lume, correct crown and CG with flush lever pin and correct casebacks on them and sell them for $450 so you do not have to do any mods after sale, people would scoop them up like hot cakes. Chime in if you have any inside info on super pam reps coming up, since I see Cartel is pumping out new super reps at least one once a week now.. How is with me? I'd drop $450 for Pam super rep in a heart beat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poopypants Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) I'd drop $450 for Pam super rep in a heart beat! i will 2nd, 3rd, and 4th that comment... EDIT: WAIT! i just wanna $450 SUPER REP for $250... they did it with the skyland... might as well not give the Cartel anymore reason to hike the prices on Pams too... Edited August 1, 2008 by poopypants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milsub5517 Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 i agree, looking at recent breitlings ( skyland, SHO, SFSO) many PAM reps are a grade below in terms of accuracy. Interestingly, Panerai watches are less complicated compared to other brands and still our chinese friends manage to screw them up. go figure!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I agree with you; the technology exists to create a true clone, but it doesn't seem to be in the manufacturer's best interest. For one, it's a fake. The factories and parts manufacturers aren't interested in achieving 100%; rather, 95% - 98% accurate seems to be acceptable. This may be for a number of reasons of which I can only speculate, but at the top, I do suspect that the following reasons contribute to the topic most: 1) There is no standard of build quality amongst the different manufacturers. While assembling factories may be churning out a product, there is no guarantee that any consistency will exist amongst the different suppliers of parts out there. My thoughts on this are that they use what parts are available; when one batch runs out, they order another, though they may use the first source of availability, or they may base this decision on price to keep margins low. 2) Keeping the above in mind, some manufacturers may actually go out of their way to keep certain aspects and details of a watch flawed. I am not sure about the validity of this notion, but it's interesting to look back and take note of all the updated versions a factory may release of a watch, with prior flaws fixed. Unfortunately, this tends to result in prior correct characteristics to now be the subject of problem (commonly known as the 1 step forward, 2 steps back conundrum). While this may be puzzling to some, the motive seems to be continued sales of a product that may likely be saturated in the market already. Or, it could be a genuine oversight. 3) Factories may simply not care. They're making their sales, breaking even on cost and generating profit for every unit sold above their initial production cost. In my humble opinion, if you want a nice, accurate rep, you have to build it. Take the best of the best from each watch and combine them to build your own ultimate. Sure, it might be pricey, and it may be time consuming and effort intensive. But the result (which is likely to be less than gen, but more than your standard rep) is well worth it. You end up with a special piece, built from the best parts and orchestrated the way *you* want it. At least, that's the way I've been doing it Cheers! R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poopypants Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) i agree with ubi about building your own... i bought the skyland "super-rep" and i am currently putting a swiss movement in it and trying to source a gen dial due to the lume markers being absolute crappy alignment... of course, i also live by the saying "you want it done right, do it yourself". even some pams models i have had needed to be butchered... even making your own fantasy models is a way to getting away with wearing a rep around a WIS and having him say: hey! they don't make a PVD PAM196! but, i do understand where pamlover is coming from... they are making these new, great, more correct, models... they might as well start refining the old ones too... ESPECIALLY something as simple as a Panerai! Edited August 1, 2008 by poopypants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strattakan Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I agree with you; the technology exists to create a true clone, but it doesn't seem to be in the manufacturer's best interest. For one, it's a fake. The factories and parts manufacturers aren't interested in achieving 100%; rather, 95% - 98% accurate seems to be acceptable. This may be for a number of reasons of which I can only speculate, but at the top, I do suspect that the following reasons contribute to the topic most: 1) There is no standard of build quality amongst the different manufacturers. While assembling factories may be churning out a product, there is no guarantee that any consistency will exist amongst the different suppliers of parts out there. My thoughts on this are that they use what parts are available; when one batch runs out, they order another, though they may use the first source of availability, or they may base this decision on price to keep margins low. 2) Keeping the above in mind, some manufacturers may actually go out of their way to keep certain aspects and details of a watch flawed. I am not sure about the validity of this notion, but it's interesting to look back and take note of all the updated versions a factory may release of a watch, with prior flaws fixed. Unfortunately, this tends to result in prior correct characteristics to now be the subject of problem (commonly known as the 1 step forward, 2 steps back conundrum). While this may be puzzling to some, the motive seems to be continued sales of a product that may likely be saturated in the market already. Or, it could be a genuine oversight. 3) Factories may simply not care. They're making their sales, breaking even on cost and generating profit for every unit sold above their initial production cost. In my humble opinion, if you want a nice, accurate rep, you have to build it. Take the best of the best from each watch and combine them to build your own ultimate. Sure, it might be pricey, and it may be time consuming and effort intensive. But the result (which is likely to be less than gen, but more than your standard rep) is well worth it. You end up with a special piece, built from the best parts and orchestrated the way *you* want it. At least, that's the way I've been doing it Cheers! R Agree. Also think that ppl like us around rep foruns isn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strattakan Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 i agree with ubi about building your own... i bought the skyland "super-rep" and i am currently putting a swiss movement in it and trying to source a gen dial due to the lume markers being absolute crappy alignment... of course, i also live by the saying "you want it done right, do it yourself". Well, swiss movt make the thing little costly, but a gen dial and hands ( i saw the chrono seconds hand and the red paint isnt perfect on the edges) will make it gorgeous... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I used to think that the factories kept from building a 100% accurate rep to avoid copyright infringement, but anymore, I think it's just a matter of too many inconsistencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Something interesting- Here's a dial I picked up. An old DSN (I'm told an old prototype) which I don't believe to be in production any longer. Some aspects of the dial look great, while there are a few that could have been done a little better. I believe the above to be an issue of one supplier providing one dial (the above) while another may be actually contracted to do the work (resulting in a completely different end product altogether). A similar parallel would be the old vintage Rolex models pre-1990's (prior to Rolex buying their suppliers out to do things in-house). Lots of variations in dials, hands, etc. as several were contracted to provide the parts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strattakan Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 And I think sometimes the hardcore members will do themselves the watches... just think: Get a gen of 10grand. Make 2k units, sell for 400 each one... you paid the gen, the manufacture costs and get some cash just selling half of lot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OiRogers Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I think if you were to replace any pam reference with "black rollie sub" in the OP you'd be looking at an age old rep argument/problem.... many years and many many versions and we still don't have a 1:1 rep of (what I would assume to be) the most sought / commonly recognized watch in the rep game. One would think that a watch as simple as a pam 112 would be a breeze to make a "perfect" rep... yet it hasn't been done. Simple fixes such as the canon pin, crown guard and its pin, crown itself and the lume... never seen those fixed other than on "modded" watches. Only reason I can think that the rep-makers continue to make such products is a lack of incentive to correct the problems... The pams they make now sell in sufficient numbers to turn a good profit, what incentive do they have to re-tool to correct the flaws? I do not believe that rep makers intentionally introduce flaws to keep reps from being perfect, they would sell and continue to sell a "perfect" rep to many people as long as they could be produced. I firmly believe that the designers of reps get them to a "good enough" point for visual accuracy and cost to produce and call it a day at that point. I'm sure that myself and many others would leap at the chance to purchase 1:1 perfect copies of many watches... but I just don't think the factories/makers have the incentive to correct their current flaws as long as their watches continue to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I applaud the sentiment but I think we have to bear a few things in mind. In spite of the fact that rep folks around here are huge fans of PAM's the number of gen PAM's sold worldwide is miniscule compared to other brands. One of the reasons that PAM's were so intently pursued a few years ago is that the initial target markets (Japan and the EU) were a disproportionate percentage of the buyers and as a result the rep manufacturers piled in. But in truth If you haven't noticed a number of the PAM reps are being discontinued. The trend now seems to be to build $300 reps of $1800 pieces or $800-$1,000 reps of $7,000 plus pieces. In general PAM's don't fall into either category. So I don't think I would hold my breath. But the best part of PAM's is that they are so simple and so you can often swap parts from other versions or even gen parts. And that is a reason why a number of folks love them here as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Superlume? Never going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweattdogg Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I guess I'll chime in on this post. This is much easier said then done. Is it just me or do these posts come up about once a month? Someone comes on posts how easy it should be to make a super rep that is 99-100% accurate. Just better bridges, engravings, dials, superlume and everything else. How easy and cheap it should be. They then get everyone all pumped up about how great that would be. What is always missing in these emails is anything resembling a plan of action. I applaud V and anyone else on the board who just did it rather than talk about it. Hours of work done, commitments of money and large orders that they took a chance on. If it was as easy as these posts make it sound, then everyone would already be doing it. What we really need is less of these posts about how easy it should be and more posts with a plan of action, whether it be a specific part or an entire watch. I'm not trying to offend anyone or disagree with the idea of improving what we have, this is just my 2-cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cskent69 Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 In reality - the Pannie reps are actually quite good depending upon which one you go for. EXCEPT for the dials. For some reason - the dials on these suck big time and there are only 2-3 that come close to resembling the real thing. Every other component - is about the same the rest of the reps. We are very critical about PAM reps the same way that we are critical of Rollie reps - most will not notice the thickness of the crowns the way that we do. The other thread along these lines - the one about making some accurate dials - is attempting to address this problem. It was decided that the base PAM dials would be the best to attempt to replicate as it should be easy to do. This is evidenced by the fact that the dials that exist today - actually are not far off - just the wrong engravings, or wrong font. Those kids of errors are simply laziness or apathy - since it would seem that minor attention to detail and the appropriate incentive to get the printing correct (on dials they are already going through the trouble to print!) would have actually ended up in a close to acceptable dial. Lets all hope the dial project actually comes to fruition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chad Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 It is the simplicity that is the problem not an easy solution. Things like font and dial texture have to be perfect on the pams or it looks like crap. Take a look at a super rep with a busy dial and most have flaws in these areas also but they are so busy that you cannot really notice it. Like the dots on the new skyland, just imagine if the dial only had those dots on it. All of a sudden that flaw would be a deal breaker. These guys who make these reps in china are not fine detail oriented people. They are looking to make a buck and low standards when it comes to making something perfect. Yes we have some REALLY impressive reps but if you really want to take things to the next level these guys just do not think that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkirke Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I'd totally drop $3-400 for a super rep in a heartbeat. something exactly 1:1 instead of getting one fully modded from someone like DSN with his varying case sizes and measurements. i'm in!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I think they can, but simply won't do it. As others already have said there are other more popular brands than Panerai. Besides, the already existing PAM reps keep selling, so why invest in improving older reps when you can make a super rep of a new model and get more money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 pams are so - 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 pams are so - 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therebel Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I believe we can make this happen, it will be a lot of hard work, but it can happen. -Get a group of respected Pam nuts who are willing to work with a dealer to make this project happen. -Offer to provide a gen base series (probably the biggest seller and easiest to get going) Pam for the dealer to take to a factory to copy from. -Work with the dealer on prototypes to correct flaws. -Offer an intial upfront group buy (should be very easy between the forums), so that the dealer knows he will make a solid return for his work. It would be hard work for a couple members, but in my mind, it is very doable. If we show the initiative and prove that there would be a large market for this, it may convince the dealers to work with us. I'd be more than willing to help make this work. As Pug said, the super lume just isn't going to happen, but if we could get a great Pam base that only needs to be re-lumed, then the majority of people would be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capice Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I like them, even those before 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I like them, even those before 2007 Great signature, my friend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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