fotoman Posted August 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 If there is evidence that Josh and Andrew are pressuring other dealers to increase their prices on the Steelfish then what pray tell is it? I don't put them above such behavior but suspicions and innuendo is NOT evidence. You offer a price increase by one dealer on one watch as your proof. By the way, please don't imply that those who disagree only do so because they are ignorant. I get tired of being told to read the "cartel" threads. I did so some time ago as many here have, and that I can see you have not yet offered compelling evidence (or indeed ANY evidence) that this single price increase is part of some price fixing scheme. Mr member number 12,000 something - your new around here - you have no history of the way things worked Pre Perfect clones No One had websites except for paul. i have been doing this for years, i have played with all the players - i have been an "insider" for a long time. - i won't be able to produce a fax or email that the cartel price fixes - but, i can tell you anecdotally that its going on. from cartel members complaining to the forum and threatining the forum mods we have had one dealer threaten to report us to paypal - the forum i mean. There is a ton of stuff you don't know that happens behind the scenes - so guess what, your ignornat. its not your fault. it takes time to become a long term insider. trust us - its real. the pressure is real, the monopoly powers are real - the skyland is the best example - for some reason the price control didn't hold on that one and it went down from 300 to 200 over night. mr. fish in a barrel - again - swim away dude, feel free - but, clearly you have never run your own business. People that run their own business spend 60% of their time getting clients and keeping them happy and 40% doing business. we get if not a large portion then a significant portion of their clients for them, at no cost, we recruit - we answer tech support questions we put pressure on behalf of clients to have dealers make things right and they in tern get rich and jack up prices, trying to force other dealers to jack them up as well. what about that does not make you feel used? and - by the way,, go ahead, swim upstream away from our dealer - try finding a skyland when it comes out. Silix has it for $275 the skyland? he has the V1 for 200 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Actually I think rep buying is getting better - not worse. Multiple factories are making the same watch. Exclusives are getting shorter not longer. And dealers are getting access to previous exclusives sooner not later. We actually are seeing prices come down on some of the newer models (Skyland) and prices are coming down on the older higher end models as demand wanes as well. And if they are not it is because there is enough demand at that price (or plain old very little inventory) and if you don't like the price don't buy it. If the price has gone up on an older watch and you want it and you are unwilling to pay it - be patient and buy it in the secondary market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 JohnG, I myself have not been posting for awhile, but do read often these days (too much politics for my liking). Please read threads on the "other" forum where the so called price fixing and bullting of other sellers were brought to light. The outcome was that they were removed from the sellers list. Again, its who you believe. Being a member on these forums for awhile, I believe I know who gets my trust. Why is this being cast as an issue of loyalty or trust? I have never bought from Josh or Andrew and anyone who knows me from RWG1 knows that I am VERY critical of some of their practices. I don't like the "white" lies - whatever that means because to me lies are lies and I think they tell them quite freely. I also find the evidence presented in the threads at RWI regarding threats against other dealers convincing. And I have read and understand the "old" cartel threads. But the fact that certain dealers behave in (in my opinion) a less than ethical way, does NOT convert every one of their pricing decisions into a fraudulent action. If there is ANY evidence that the price increase in the SF cited in the first post of this thread is part of some NEW scheme to fix prices, I would REALLY like to know what it is. If such evidence does not exist - then the price point of that one watch is a mere distraction and this is just a rehash of old themes. That is FINE by me - I am no defender of J/A and am not going to protest a debate about their tactics. But I will speak up if it is suggested, as it has been here, that every price increase is part of some nefarious plot. That is just patently ridiculous. Silix has it for $275 Well, that is pretty compelling evidence that J/A have NOT (at least so far) fixed the price of this replica among all the dealers. As long as this watch can still be had from other dealers at a more competitive price, then comments about the demise of the free market and references to "fish in a barrel" are off base, to put it mildly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 +1. Isn't it great that because of this (ese) forums the number of competitive dealers has increased? Even if the so called Cartel is guilty of what some say there is always another alternative. I mean I think Andreww said another dealer had the same watch for $275 - vs what was it $358? What a big difference. The bottom line is each buyer can shop around and decide which price / dealer combination works best for them in terms of quality & service and long term relationship or whatever. As a side note, let's all not forget that the last item I mentioned is maybe the most important to many here. Some think these watches are all cheap - whether $275 or $358 or anything in between and would rather stick with who they know for such a little price differential before thinking of switching to another dealer. I know I have my favorite dealer who will remain nameless for purposes of this discussion and I'm going to buy from him every time even if there is a dealer with a price a hundred dollars cheaper or more. I like my dealer's service and always have so price is but a minor issue for me. I'm sure there are many here that feel the same way. We have to be careful not to make the mistake in thinking that each member is as price sensitive as the next. Many people could care less and just want the piece of mind from buying from the dealer that THEY trust. That dealer may actually even be mistrusted by another group of members for other reasons. It is all really cool if you ask me and unique to reps due to the illegal factor. Personal (not group) trust is what is important. Rep buying is a very personal experience... Actually I think rep buying is getting better - not worse. Multiple factories are making the same watch. Exclusives are getting shorter not longer. And dealers are getting access to previous exclusives sooner not later. We actually are seeing prices come down on some of the newer models (Skyland) and prices are coming down on the older higher end models as demand wanes as well. And if they are not it is because there is enough demand at that price (or plain old very little inventory) and if you don't like the price don't buy it. If the price has gone up on an older watch and you want it and you are unwilling to pay it - be patient and buy it in the secondary market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreww Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Well, that is pretty compelling evidence that J/A have NOT (at least so far) fixed the price of this replica among all the dealers. As long as this watch can still be had from other dealers at a more competitive price, then comments about the demise of the free market and references to "fish in a barrel" are off base, to put it mildly. Maybe... until you try and order one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Actually I think rep buying is getting better - not worse. Multiple factories are making the same watch. Exclusives are getting shorter not longer. And dealers are getting access to previous exclusives sooner not later. We actually are seeing prices come down on some of the newer models (Skyland) and prices are coming down on the older higher end models as demand wanes as well. And if they are not it is because there is enough demand at that price (or plain old very little inventory) and if you don't like the price don't buy it. If the price has gone up on an older watch and you want it and you are unwilling to pay it - be patient and buy it in the secondary market. Exactly Not sure why we needed, YET ANOTHER, thread devoted to this topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Mr member number 12,000 something - your new around here - you have no history of the way things worked Pre Perfect clones No One had websites except for paul. If you want to attack my reasoning, then do it. My post count or time on the board is irrelevant to my points - which from the comments below it is quite obvious you are not even reading. Read, critique, contradict... but calling me a noob and dismissing my arguments in this manner is a mark of weakness. trust us - its real. the pressure is real, the monopoly powers are real I know it is real. If you can show me where I say that the cartel does not engage in price fixing I will buy you ANY GEN OF YOUR CHOICE. It would be better to just ignore my posts I think, because to argue against them you are going to at least have to spend a moment actually reading them. So far you have replied to arguments I have never made. Maybe... until you try and order one Instead of an insinuation and a wink, how about saying clearly what you mean. If Silix cannot get this watch - say so. If you don't know for sure, then I am not sure what your point is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josevancouver Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 (edited) Hey Noob - don't even trying calling me a noob because I am definitely not one. Noob on number of posts on this board, definitely not a noob in this hobby. I am not siding with Josh or any cartel or whatever. I have bought from practically every dealer for the past few years and if a dealer bumps up the price of a watch by 20-30 dollars, I'm not going to cry 'scam'. This board and others exist to educate and prevent us from getting ripped off by fake scam websites. If a dealer bumps up a price by a certain amount, I don't call that a scam. If I don't like it, I buy from someone else. If everyone else does too, I guarantee that the dealer may start dropping the price down. I also don't buy $700 reps because I know full well that even at a 100% markup, the cost to build the watch is $350. Hi noob. Herey herey I em not talking about all the reps, i em talking about hustling you now like drug dealers giving you cocaine they say is 80% pure and it turns out you paid a premium for 40% crap mixed whit all kind of garbage. Thats have they are doing on the Asian 7750 they sell you crap for 450-1100$ for the price of Swiss 7750 Quality.. You see this forum is here to help members not dealers if some like Dave enjoy spending and can afford this high priced reps then fine for him but not all can or are willing to spend 700 on something that shoud cost maximum of 400.. My collection is all Swiss movements that can be serviced and use spare parts hens they have some value something a 7750 Asian does not.. Cheers Edited August 19, 2008 by josevancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josevancouver Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Great points JohnG. When I go to any store, I fully expect that the price may go up or go down by 2-5%. That's BUSINESS. Price-fixing or lying about a product is another thing. The best way to send a message to dealers we don't like is to stop buying from them. As for Dani being weak-minded, I would agree. Pretty lame tactic. Jose is a newcomer to this forum, but not to the hobby. And even if he were, calling attention to someone's low post count in an attempt to undermine their credibility is a favored tactic of the weak-minded. Surely you don't want to be perceived that way... so why not let your arguments stand on their own merit rather than calling someone you disagree with "noob"? I am NO fan of the cartel and have never purchased from them. And if they attempt to fix pricing or lie about their product I am very quick to speak out. But this thread is about a price increase in a watch. Nothing more. Any dealer can price any watch anyway he or she wishes. As long as there is transparency as to what the product actually IS and they are not trying to force other dealers to similarly increase their price, then there is no legitimate complaint to be made. Calling attention to the fact that a watch is overpriced is appropriate - but insinuating that the act of raising a price, just because you don't like it, constitutes some sort of fraud is beyond silly. We are all (in theory) adults here and can make informed and responsible choices for ourselves. If you don't like a price, simply buy the watch from someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Actually I think rep buying is getting better - not worse. Multiple factories are making the same watch. Exclusives are getting shorter not longer. And dealers are getting access to previous exclusives sooner not later. We actually are seeing prices come down on some of the newer models (Skyland) and prices are coming down on the older higher end models as demand wanes as well. And if they are not it is because there is enough demand at that price (or plain old very little inventory) and if you don't like the price don't buy it. If the price has gone up on an older watch and you want it and you are unwilling to pay it - be patient and buy it in the secondary market. Soooooo true... I hope you all remember the old days were the prices were given by PMs only and never anounced openly, hence sometimes different people were getting different prices at different periods of time Anyway.. I agree that lies and threatening dealers to fix prices is not good at all but at this case a 40$ increasing of a watch price is acceptable for me whatever the reason. Until they threaten for example Silix to higher his price. That would have been price fixing and an actual problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Great points JohnG. When I go to any store, I fully expect that the price may go up or go down by 2-5%. That's BUSINESS. Price-fixing or lying about a product is another thing. The best way to send a message to dealers we don't like is to stop buying from them. As for Dani being weak-minded, I would agree. Pretty lame tactic. Well, I didn't go so far as to say he is weak minded - I just point out the obvious fact that it is a favored tactic among the weak minded. If someone wishes to avoid being perceived that way, they ought to address and critique specific points of another's argument, NOT their post count. By that (weak) logic, everyone who has a lot of posts is always right and everyone who has few is always wrong. It doesn't take much intellect to the see the fallacy of that assumption. Soooooo true... Anyway.. I agree that lies and threatening dealers to fix prices is not good at all but at this case a 40$ increasing of a watch price is acceptable for me whatever the reason. Until they threaten for example Silix to higher his price. That would have been price fixing and an actual problem. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Actually I think rep buying is getting better - not worse. Multiple factories are making the same watch. Exclusives are getting shorter not longer. And dealers are getting access to previous exclusives sooner not later. We actually are seeing prices come down on some of the newer models (Skyland) and prices are coming down on the older higher end models as demand wanes as well. And if they are not it is because there is enough demand at that price (or plain old very little inventory) and if you don't like the price don't buy it. If the price has gone up on an older watch and you want it and you are unwilling to pay it - be patient and buy it in the secondary market. Exactly Not sure whey we needed, YET ANOTHER, thread devoted to this topic I have to agree here... These Threads just drag down the forum and community... Same shit discussed and argued about... Not to mention the personal attacks that they invite... I'm not going to set through yet another one... If you don't have enough opinions in this one already to garner from, then take a peek at this one HERE... But to be honest folks, we're getting tired of it... Back to "Who has the Best Sub"... Thanks, TwoTone . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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