TeeJay Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Nothing more than the result of distracted clumsiness on my part. I was winding the movement, momentarily distracted, and for some unknown reason, cranked an extra turn into the movement once it had reached it's 'maximum wind' The crown made a crunching noise, then rotated freely (not engaging the winding mechanism) The watch still works. It is still windable, keeps time perfectly, and still requires winding as per it's regular intervals, so nothing seriously amiss there. But. When winding, sometimes the stem will engage the winding mechanism, sometimes it 'free floats' till it re-engages the mechanism, and, since this accident, is resting in a slightly different position, as the CG lever now rattles loose, rather than it's previously solid 'lock down'. What kind of damage am I likely to have inflicted here? Damage to the stem, or damage to the movement (or both) Would it be easier to repair the movement, or simply replace it? Also, as a side question, if the damage is to the movement rather than the stem, if I was to replace the movement, would the existing stem (with crown mounted) be okay with the new movement, or might there be 'fitting/length' issues? Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 You might have stripped some threads from the stem or crown may just be a simple loctite job to fix it, does every thing look in order in the back, are there any teeth missing from the winding gears and are they all lining up correctly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 You might have stripped some threads from the stem or crown may just be a simple loctite job to fix it, does every thing look in order in the back, are there any teeth missing from the winding gears and are they all lining up correctly Looking at the back, the gears look okay. No missing teeth or misallignment there... It really feels like the stem is not properly engaging into the movement itself to wind the mechanism 100% of the time. I might try pulling the stem entirely to see what kind of condition the end is in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Probably need a new crown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Best place to start mate. if the end looks ok then see if it is still tight in the crown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Yeah... I've experienced a similar issue with some Rolex crowns. The spring loaded clutch/grab mechanism broke free and allowed the crown to sort of free wheel around. Once I replaced with a new crown, all was happy again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 I've just performed a quick examination, and these are the findings... Upon removing the caseback, there was a few flecks of very fine 'brass colored dust' on the inside of the display back... I removed the stem very easily. It pretty much just pulled clean out... The 'square section' at the end of the stem appeared undamaged. There were no 'bites or dents' in the edges... Putting it back together, the issue is still as before. The watch will wind, but with occasional 'free-wheeling' Ubi, are you thinking I might have stipped the threads in the crown, rather than the insides of the movement? I'd hope that might be the case, but, the metallic dust on the inside of the case are concerning me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Hmmmm... Brass colored debris. That can't be good. Do you have another crown and stem to test with? That might help with torubleshooting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 I dont think that the crown in question is a spring loaded one, if the crown and stem are still solid together then it may be damage to the winding pinion and clutch wheel. But beacause you say the lever is now loose it leads me to believe that the crown has screwed down tighter on the stem making is shorter and then makeing the winding pinion and clutch wheel not fit together well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Ahhh... Good point. I forgot that PAM crowns aren't always spring loaded like Rolex crowns. Hmmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Further examination.... Ubi, indeed, I have a spare crown and stem, and tried your suggestion. The results were not encouraging... The PVD crown appears fine in its connection to the stem, and, when inserted into my 113, was able to wind the movement smoothly and without problem. When I inserted the 113 crown into the 111g movement, the same issue occured when winding. I can only conclude that there has been damage sustained to the part of the movement which engages on the 'square end' of the stem (possibly the clutch wheel?) If this is indeed the case, would it be cheaper and easier to just replace the entire movement rather than having the existing movement repaired? (I don't want to replace the entire watch, as it was a birthday gift from my wife, so has sentimental value, despite its lack of wrist time) [Edit to add] As before, the function of the watch appears unchanged, and it keeps time (and retains it's power reserve) as before, although, without the pressure of the CG lever, I fear the water resistance of the watch might have been compromised... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted September 20, 2008 Report Share Posted September 20, 2008 Hi TJ, Sorry to hear that. I am not able to help to fix the movement, but I can give you my advice about your other question. G series movements with swan neck are worth a lot these days (if dagger swan neck, even more)! Up to 200-250 USD! Don't give it away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2008 Hi TJ, Sorry to hear that. I am not able to help to fix the movement, but I can give you my advice about your other question. G series movements with swan neck are worth a lot these days (if dagger swan neck, even more)! Up to 200-250 USD! Don't give it away! Thanks, my friend Sadly, this movement doesn't have the swan neck, just the needle adjustment, so no easy money for me on that count I've been looking through Tony's list, and have a PVD Radiomir project planned, which will involve a dial and movement transplant from a 'sweeping seconds' dial/movement, to a Base dial/movement. The 'sweeping' movement is identical to the movement in my 111g, so it will be a perfect transplant Of course, I think I'll need to sell a few canvasses before I can undertake these projects, and, in all honesty, the 'damaged' movement is still functional, so I know there's no need to rush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted September 20, 2008 Report Share Posted September 20, 2008 I think The Zigmeister once said it's impossible to 'over wind' this movement, or at least he never encountered it. So I also think it's the stem/ crown assembly.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 I think Ziggy once said it's impossible to 'over wind' this movement, or at least he never encountered it. So I also think it's the stem/ crown assembly.... Indeed, I remember him making that comment, but, when asked if it was possible to then damage the movement by forcing it past the point of the complete wind, I don't believe he answered. As I said before, the PVD crown appears fine in its connection to the stem, and, when inserted into my 113, was able to wind the movement smoothly and without problem. When I inserted the 113 crown into the 111g movement, the same issue occured when winding. I can only conclude that there has been damage sustained to the part of the movement which engages on the 'square end' of the stem (possibly the clutch wheel?) Thanks for the input, but I think the fitting of the 113 crown into the 111g movement ruled out the possibility of it being a crown/stem fault, as there was nothing wrong with that crown, yet the issue persisted with the movement It's not a problem though, I'll just replace the movement when I get the chance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAMman Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 I dont think that the crown in question is a spring loaded one, if the crown and stem are still solid together then it may be damage to the winding pinion and clutch wheel. But beacause you say the lever is now loose it leads me to believe that the crown has screwed down tighter on the stem making is shorter and then makeing the winding pinion and clutch wheel not fit together well I know that it's only a theory, but I tend to favour the view that the crown may have tightened on the stem and is now too short to engage properly. When you have experienced the same problem with a different (PVD) stem & crown it doesn't neccessarily prove anything, as the alternative stem & crown may never have been a suitable length. To test this 'short stem' theory, remove the 'O' ring from the base of the original crown and re-try it. This will give you the extra length which may sort the problem. At least it should eliminate this possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikerblade Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 If you are thinking about changing the movement & you feel confident it might be worth stripping the keyless works & rebuilding it. I had the same issues with one of my pams while I was changing the cannon pin. I had to press the stem down while turning to get it to engage, although it looked ok I took it apart & reset all the parts & 6 months later its still one of my nicest feeling winders. The only other time I have had something similar is when I shortened a stem to bring the crown closer to the case, I could set the time but the winder wouldn't engage although the stem worked fine in a different case. Seems a tiny difference in the length can make a huge difference to the keyless. PAMman beat me to it & a better explanation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 Indeed, I remember him making that comment, but, when asked if it was possible to then damage the movement by forcing it past the point of the complete wind, I don't believe he answered. As I said before, the PVD crown appears fine in its connection to the stem, and, when inserted into my 113, was able to wind the movement smoothly and without problem. When I inserted the 113 crown into the 111g movement, the same issue occured when winding. I can only conclude that there has been damage sustained to the part of the movement which engages on the 'square end' of the stem (possibly the clutch wheel?) Thanks for the input, but I think the fitting of the 113 crown into the 111g movement ruled out the possibility of it being a crown/stem fault, as there was nothing wrong with that crown, yet the issue persisted with the movement It's not a problem though, I'll just replace the movement when I get the chance You are right. Then you've ruled out the crown/ stem combo. I would take it to a watchmaker, it's probably a cheap fix. And to avoid these things in the future.. stay out of the gym Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Thanks for the input, guys I don't really have the tools (or the knowledge )to think about rebuilding the keyless works, and to be honest, too lazy to strip the two watches again to test further stem theories, so I'll just be transplating in a new movement when I have one available Might be a while (unless someone decides to buy my canvas ) but I'm in no hurry. The watch still works for the purpose of telling the time, and, despite it's sentimental value, doesn't see much wrist time, so it's not an essential repair to be done now, it's more a case of I wanted to find out what issues I was dealing with for when the time comes to get down to full on repairs Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Let me look around in my spares... I may have a bunch of keyless works parts I can send you. If I do... I'll let you know. At least you'd have the option of rebuilding if you wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Let me look around in my spares... I may have a bunch of keyless works parts I can send you. If I do... I'll let you know. At least you'd have the option of rebuilding if you wanted to. That's really good of you, but honestly, I couldn't repair the movement itself, so I'll just replace it entirely when I'm able to That said, if the remains of my movement would be of any use to you, you'd be very welcome to them It still keeps time and works, it's just a bit iffy on winding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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