Movement replication...

[Shundi]

We've all seen Asian movements get better over the past few years- most notably in the past 6 months with the recent Asian ETA clones. From some accounts they are getting really, really close to the quality and appearance of the true Swiss ETAs. Keeping this in mind, take a gander at Josh’s new addition to the PAM line at http://www.joshwatch.com/0141-p-5206.html . Now, the watch is an obvious “fantasy” model and has the wrong font, date wheel, and the gen is hand wound vs. automatic but take a look at the automatic movement:

Notice anything? Look at the bridge for the balance wheel… I’m not sure if this is currently on Chinese automatics but that looks an awful lot like the balance bridges on a Rolex Cal 3135

We’ve discussed it before but am I the only one who feels that now that the Chinese have become very proficient in producing 1:1 cases and (in some cases) dials that the next big battle is going to be movements.

Case in point, the new Tag Aquaracer… I believe TAG has included a display back on their new model to “showcase” the movement. Companies like VC and Patek have also rolled out designs showcasing the movements as the movement is an obvious tell for reps with in-house or well-finished movements. My Millionsmart tourby from Homer has (I assume) non-functioning Microstella-esq screws on the balance wheel...why couldn't the Chinese add these to the rep 3135?

I’ve always thought that the next two to three years in the rep world will be marked with improvements on movement reliability and accuracy not only with regards to time keeping but with regards to aesthetics as well. The pictures of that PAM just brought the Cal 3135’s balance bridges to my mind and I’ve seen rotor replications and even maroon click wheels on some Asian DG movements… if the Chinese manage to combine these and add perlage and gold script…they’d have a pretty close representation of the 3135… Rolex manufactures most movement parts using standard CNC technology, there’s really no reason the Chinese couldn’t figure out how to manufacture such movements at our price point within the next few years… especially if they’re already purchasing gens to make 1:1 cases and bezels…

Thoughts? Disagree? I just found the pictures on Josh’s site interesting and I’d love to know what others think about the future of rep movements…

[freddy333]

A balance bridge in lieu of a cock is certainly a step in the right direction. But until I see what is under there, I will reserve judgment.

There is no question that Chinese factories are getting better at making things look more accurate, but, as recent experience with GMT & secs at 6 A7750 movements have shown, they have a long way to go in terms of matching the gens' manufacturing or performance quality.

[Shundi]

Freddy,

I agree- the seconds @ 6 movements and recent CHS GMT were, by nearly all accounts, disasters waiting to happen (save for a few- which I seem to have been blessed with! My Daytona runs perfectly) but while they've been crude, I feel the Chinese are being cautious and testing the waters here...

Also, I'm not sure of the assembly process but is it possible the GMT modification was performed by technicians or workers who were not associated with the original movement factory? In other words, were these movements mickey moused together after the fact as opposed to being created "in house" at the same factories where the Chinese build the Asian ETAs? It could be an important difference...what if a movement manufacturing company such as Seagull or Millionsmart got into the GMT game in a big way or designed some sort of seconds @ 6 movement that just happened to be a chronograph? Do you think there'd be a major difference in the quality or would you chalk it up to the technological superiority of Swiss movements vs the current available technology across the board in China.

Also, great pictures of the bridge (since I see him reading) on the 3135 can be found in RobbieG's recent post on the differences between the ETA 2892 and the Rolex Calibre 3135... found Here

[freddy333]

Also, I'm not sure of the assembly process but is it possible the GMT modification was performed by technicians or workers who were not associated with the original movement factory? In other words, were these movements mickey moused together after the fact as opposed to being created "in house" at the same factories where the Chinese build the Asian ETAs?

Ah, yeah. Welcome to the world of reps.

The term 'factory' is something of a misnomer, since most rep watches are assembled in anything but what most in the west would term a 'factory'. It is not uncommon for the assembly of rep watches to be contracted out to families of home builders, who then construct the watches on their living room floor or around the dinner table (keep this in mind the next time you wonder why there are fingerprints or debris inside your rep). But even if reps were assembled under clean room conditions by Rolex-trained technicians, the fact remains that you are not going to get a solid gold rep at rep prices when the price of an ounce of gold is generally many times the cost of the entire rep watch, & you are not going to get Rolex (or any other luxury brand) parts/design quality at rep prices either. The problems associated with the corners cut in the design, manufacture & assembly of recent Super rep watches were neither accidental nor unique. On the contrary, they are to be expected considering the (drastically inflated) retail prices being charged for high end rep watches (which I believe are still mostly reasonable when you factor in the beauty & visual accuracy of some of the better reps).

[Shundi]

Freddy,

I totally see your point regarding super reps and I agree that for the price point they are excellent "values" in the watch world...

I guess my point is that even though the recent GMT and Seconds@6 movements were fiascos, I personally feel that if the Chinese have begun to step up movement production standards... I can only speak from experience but the last few "Asian ETA" movement I've received from various sellers have been of phenomenal quality with quiet rotors, smooth sweeping seconds hands and of the 5 I've received recently, 4 have been at or near COSC standards with the 5th being slightly out @ around +-9 per day. Also telling, I have serviced Asian movements which have remained within fairly tight tolerances for the last two years or so and, as per RobbieG's aforementioned topic, a good watch movement can not only be adjusted to COSC specifications but it can STAY at COSC specs due to tighter manufacturing standards and QC.

I understand and am aware of the "factory" misnomer and I apologize for using it in a general fashion in my original post, however while I understand that the final assembly may take place in a kitchen, the movement parts and pieces (of which manufacturing precision and finishing is essential for a great movement) must be produced at some sort of factory with CNC technology yes? My point is that, much like Hyundai, those factories might well start off manufacturing "throw away" products or "poor quality" products and then, as technology improves and becomes cheaper, such companies can offer highly finished final products that easily outshine former output (Like the new Genesis in North American Markets, for instance). I honestly think we're going to start seeing that in rep movements- at the very least I think we're going to see an improvement in the timekeeping ability and reliability of Asian copy ETA's...

The term 'factory' is something of a misnomer, since most rep watches are assembled in anything but what most in the west would term a 'factory'. It is not uncommon for the assembly of rep watches to be contracted out to families of home builders, who then construct the watches on their living room floor or around the dinner table

Interestingly enough it turns out that this is how parts of the Swiss industry worked for hundreds of years... crazy huh? Imagine some Swiss family assembling a Patek in the dining room The difference must be the QC and training, not to mention the superior Swiss produced parts.

[Pugwash]

That movement is an old SeaGull ST25 movement.

I seem to remember posting the likeness to the 3135 back when Gran posted his first SeaGull movement guide.

Edit: Correction of the movement name. It's not an ST18.

[Shundi]

Hmm must have been before my time Pug but I'm glad someone else noticed it...

[marrickvilleboy]

we noticed this a while back when they were seen in PAM reps. Other than the bridge - nothing of potential interest i'm afraid.

[Logan]

The rolex 3135, and in fact all Rolex movements are actually pretty simple, Rolex make them that way to allow for easy assembly, servicing and long life. Cloning one really wouldn't be that hard assuming you're already making watch movements and have the equipment. Cloning the 7750 would have been much more difficult and thats seems to have works reasonably well (apart from the lack of oil in some)

I personally think that the lack of ETA movements for high end reps will sooner or later make a cloned 31xx series a reality. The main hesitation is more likely to be the threat of legal action by Rolex who hit the roof the day a cloned movement appears.

[automatico]

quote =

I personally think that the lack of ETA movements for high end reps will sooner or later make a cloned 31xx series a reality. The main hesitation is more likely to be the threat of legal action by Rolex who hit the roof the day a cloned movement appears.

/quote

I believe it would be relatively easy to clone a 3135 or 1570 rolex (no harder than cloning an eta 2824, 2892, 7750 etc) and one thing about it is that they would all be hidden under the caseback. As long as the movement looks more or less correct when the caseback is removed, they could take shortcuts in other places like flat hairsprings in place of breguet hs etc. They would need to keep dial foot position, hand sizes, date offset, and overall movement size same as rolex to allow the clone to work with genuine spec cases, dials, hands etc.

Seeing that rolex can not do much about replica watches with "rolex" written in plain sight on the dials...I doubt they could do much about cloned movements hidden inside the watch.

Would buyers pay an additional $100 above the price of a watch with an eta 2836 clone in it for a rolex 3135 clone?

My guess is Yes! Yes! Yes!

[Shundi]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments!

Seeing that rolex can not do much about replica watches with "rolex" written in plain sight on the dials...I doubt they could do much about cloned movements hidden inside the watch.

There's also a school of thought that things like the CG's, dial font, etc are intentionally screwed up on Rolex reps as part of an "understanding" between Rolex and the rep world... I've read that some feel that the moment GZ produces a true 1:1 Rolex case, dial, etc CG's included, that Rolex would end up hitting the roof and taking them down with an armada of lawyers...

Either way, it's interesting, I didn't know the bridges issue had been discussed prior to this thread (sorry to beat a dead horse with that particular example!) but it's one of those things where I saw it and went "Now why would they include those bridges?"