yellomen Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 Hi guys, I have been eye-balling the PAM88's for some time now and imho all of them have some flaws. So i figured why not combine the good parts of several of them... I think the 'ultimate' PAM88 sold by the cartell might be the best starting point. This just because the crystal and cyclopse are already good and it's hard to get single sided AR these days. The dial however is not as good as the DSN dial... The V crownguard i bought can also better be fitted on the cartell case i was told... So thinking out load... the best possible PAM88 would be the 'ultimate' with a DSN dial... but... is it possible to fit a DSN dial in a cartell case? I'd love to hear the experts opinion on this matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 I own the DSN PAM088, but I don't like the blue film which is supposed to be AR. In the past I owned an 'ultimate' PAM164 and I liked that AR way better. Not sure if I like the DSN CG better than the one from the 'ultimate'. But the CG should match the serial number on the back. If I'm not mistaken Panerai changed the shape of the CGs with the introduction of the H-series. Angus's caseback is an I-series. So the V-CG would be a perfect match for that. DSN's is F-series so the flat CG is the proper match. So combining a DSN dial/hands/movement with an 'ultimate' case + V-CG could be the best option for a 'perfect' PAM088. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 I have read and DSN has confirmed he is now useing the standard rep case for his pieces now. Contact him to make sure. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shura110 Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 I have read and DSN has confirmed he is now useing the standard rep case for his pieces now. Contact him to make sure. Cheers I have installed a DSN 088 dial in the regular case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 V cg is completely inaccurate for the 88 You need a Jimmy cg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellomen Posted November 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 So you mean the post H series automatics don't have the V CG? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolli Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 from the h-serie and successive series, all have the v-crown-guard shape. but if you like the v-crown-guard more than the flat crown-guard, then it's no shame to install the v-crown-guard, and nobody will throw at you with rotten tomatoes and stinking eggs. rolli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellomen Posted November 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 ... and nobody will throw at you with rotten tomatoes and stinking eggs. hahaha, that's a relief ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolli Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 hahahahaha...... and don't forget the cream pie...... ... QUOTE (rolli @ Nov 4 2008, 06:17 PM) ... and nobody will throw at you with rotten tomatoes and stinking eggs. hahaha, that's a relief ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sql_pl Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 Somehow I got bitten by the 88 bug and would appreciate if anyone could post some real life pics of this rep. Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepshow Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 IMO, the DSN 088 with a Lello datewheel would be the best thing out there. Oh, and DSN's caseback is for an F series 088, so a V CG would be all wrong. Not sure what Josh's caseback is, because he has a pic of the Laureus caseback shown for the 088. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sql_pl Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Somehow I just can't stand DSNs fonts on the dial. They all seem way off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepshow Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 DSN: Josh: Fonts look pretty similar to me. DSN's might be a shade less bold than the Cartel dial. DSN's subdial is correct, Cartel's is incorrect. DSN's crown is better. CGs are pretty much a wash, the Cartel lever pin is better, but the opening for the crown in the CG is too big. Mod DSN's CG lever pin and his CG is better. Pretty much the only thing better on the Cartel watch that isn't a 10 min fix is the datefont. I'm certain DSN's lume is miles better, as well. Buy whichever you want, but I see a clear winner here and it ain't the Cartel watch. Feel free to disagree, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Somehow I just can't stand DSNs fonts on the dial. They all seem way off. Here's SSSurfer's comparison pic between gen and DSN dial. http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...mp;#entry473873 Only the 24 hour numeral fonts seems a tad too thin. Also the DSN dial has a slightly lighter black finish than the cartel's. The last time I had an I-series gen in my hand, it seemed to have the lighter black dial as DSN's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 I just received a Cartel 'ultimate' dial and hands. Unfortunately it seems that the minute hand is a fraction smaller than the hour hand. Also the lume - which is supposed to be great - sucks. It's even worse than the standard version. Currently I favour DSN's PAM088 as the base for the perfect PAM088. Swap the dial for a standard Cartel dial, add in some SL and CG modding (pin and lever) and you're very close to 99%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Has DSN improved his date font and cyclops? To me this is the most glaring flaw. The gen date looks bold and legible from almost any direction. DSN's only looks good straight on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 In the end: Take a DSN dial & movement, put them into a cartel's case, replace the DW with a Lello's DW, replace the crown with a T48 crown (w/ stem adapter), and live happy. Details: CG: Folks, please don't assume that what applies to handwind and especially historical models automatically applies to auto models too. Here is a compare pic between a 088D and a 088J: do you really see any substancial difference in their CGs? I have no 088 rep, neither DSN's nor cartel's, but on the pics the DSN crown guard looks more accurate than that of the cartel, cartel's looks flatter. But, as DSN swears he's using standard rep case, I'll assume it's just the pics. Date & cyclops: Again, I have no 088 rep. But on many pics I saw, DSN's and cartel's look essentially the same. And they both would benefit, even if slightly, from a Lello's DW. Caseback: I am sorry that DSN stepped back from his G-series prototype, that was accurate, to this F-series with incorrect BB number. That incorrect number, added to a too thin caseback border, makes the cartel's caseback more accurate. Dial: If the pics are correct, then the greyish, flat subdial of the cartel's version is a dead giveout. End of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellomen Posted December 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 And the D series has "L SWISS MADE L" where the newer J series has "L SWISS 12 MADE L" with the 12 in between... (at 6 position) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 I have no 088 rep, neither DSN's nor cartel's, but on the pics the DSN crown guard looks more accurate than that of the cartel, cartel's looks flatter. But, as DSN swears he's using standard rep case, I'll assume it's just the pics. DSN indeed has a different CG with a bit curved surface instead of the flat Cartel CG. Having seen the gen in the flesh this looks accurate to me. Also the CG screws have a different size and position on the case. Without drilling new holes the DSN CG won't fit on a Cartel case. The DSN lever pin is rounded, so need to be made flat. The DSN lever is polished and should be brushed. ....And they both would benefit, even if slightly, from a Lello's DW. I have a Lello DW, but the difference with the DSN DW is minor, so I haven't changed it. But the font on the gen still looks more bold. I am sorry that DSN stepped back from his G-series prototype, that was accurate, to this F-series with incorrect BB number. My DSN caseback has G0087/2000, OP6554, BB 1124890 Is that correct? If the pics are correct, then the greyish, flat subdial of the cartel's version is a dead giveout. End of story. The Cartel dial is more silver than greyish. The DSN subdial is silver, but with a yellowish teint. Both are a bit recessed and have little circels in the subdial (not showing in the pic, though). Which is more correct? The black of the DSN dial is lighter black with a greyish/blueish hue. I found that the dial emphasizes the blue hue of the DSN AR too much. So in reality the blacker Cartel dial makes the AR look more subtle. However, the J-series gen I had in my hand seemed to have the lighter black color. Could it be that Panerai has changed the color a bit over the years? And the D series has "L SWISS MADE L" where the newer J series has "L SWISS 12 MADE L" with the 12 in between... (at 6 position) My (old) Cartel dial has L SWISS MADE L with the 12 on top of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolli Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 take a look in the parts for sale area. i have a 088 davidsen dial and handset for sale. rolli In the end: Take a DSN dial & movement, put them into a cartel's case, replace the DW with a Lello's DW, replace the crown with a T48 crown (w/ stem adapter), and live happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 My DSN caseback has G0087/2000, OP6554, BB 1124890 Is that correct? Yes. If it was G0087/2000 & BB 1124109, or G0868/2000 & BB 1124890, it was a gen. The Cartel dial is more silver than greyish. The DSN subdial is silver, but with a yellowish teint. Both are a bit recessed and have little circels in the subdial (not showing in the pic, though). Which is more correct? It should be plain white silver. So maybe none is 100%... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Since this is my favourite topic since months... Left = 'Ultimate Cartel', Right = DSN 1. As you can see the black of the DSN dial is a bit lighter, less glossy and has a bit of a greenish hue (the very reason why the blueish hue of the DSN AR is empasized too much) , but the color of the DSN dial looks more like the I-series gen I had in my hand. 2. The subdial of the ultimate Cartel is slightly more grey than the silver DSN subdial. Both are not recessed (optical illusion by the small circular patterns). 3. The arabic numbers 1 - 24 on the DSN dial are a bit thinner. To me the numbers on the ultimate Cartel dial look more like the gen, but 'Panerai automatic' and 'Luminor GMT' are too bold - especially the 'A's in 'Panerai'. Ironically this was better on the old Cartel dial, which also had a recessed subdial (see pics of the installed old Cartel dial hereunder). All in all the DSN dial looks more accurate. DSN Ultimate Cartel Installed hands are DSN on an old Cartel dial, the others are 'Ultimate Cartel' The DSN hands have the same thickness, but the lume part on the hour hand seems too long. The Cartel hour hand is slightly thicker than the minute hand, but the lume part on the hour hand is shorter than on the DSN and the hour hand is also slighly shorter than DSN's. I left out the GMT hands - they are similar. So both are not perfect, but I would choose the new Cartel hands. Lello DW vs. Asian DW The Lello font is much thicker and brighter. Lello DW vs DSN DW Not that much difference. Lello is slightly brighter, but has more grain. DSN PAM088 with old Cartel dial (note the difference in L SWISS MADE L vs 12) and DSN hands. So far my 'perfect' PAM: DSN case, movement, hands. Old Cartel dial. Future mods: - make the lever pin flat (it's too round now) - brush the CG lever - change DSN hands for 'ultimate' Cartel hands - The Zigmeisterlume and full service of movement Also see http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=88010&hl= I'm not sure if I'm going to remove the blue 'AR' and put the DSN dial back or that I keep the old Cartel dial as installed now. As I understand Chief doesn't do AR on sapphire with a cyclops and I'm not sure what the effect is of removing the current 'AR'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdkno Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Scoobs - Looking at the "Best Version" cartel watch, the dial printing looks alot cleaner than the "Ultimate" cartel dial you have posted above. http://www.jpc8118.com/000000pn08803-marin...est-p-5126.html Is your dail the same as this one or is it just that your close up shows the overfill on the A's better than the stock photos?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepshow Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 $428?!?!?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Is your dail the same as this one or is it just that your close up shows the overfill on the A's better than the stock photos?? The dial printing on Josh's pics looks definitely better than on mine. Maybe there were inconsistencies in the batch or different batches and I got a bad one.... But still the color of Josh's dial looks too deep black and the subdial to greyish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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