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Love the color of that tritium pearl, R! Back to the Speedy:

Having been around the boards for several years now, I’d like to think that I have learned a little bit about all things watch related. However, the watch that got me hooked on this crazy hobby, and the one that remains closest to my heart is, and will always been the Breitling Navitimer. I often receive PMs from new members asking countless questions about the pros and cons of the various available models. So, I thought it was time to put together a detailed guide on all current and past Navitimer models. Forget about perfection Common Flaws As of writing this guide, there is no perfect Navitimer replica. Some are better than others, but all of them share at least some imperfections. Although each model has its strong points and weaknesses, some flaws are common to all Navitimer reps. Most notably of these common flaws is the slide rule insert. You will notice that the numbers on the rep insert do not come close enough to the crystal. This is the first thing that I look for when trying to determine if a Navitimer is genuine. On the most recent batch of Navi reps the insert markings do not align properly with the dial markings. This is a problem with the insert as the previous generation’s insert aligns perfectly with the newer rep dials or genuine dials. Also, the genuine insert has a silvery tint to it while the rep inserts are whiter in appearance. Another flaw with all the Navitimer reps is the obvious lack of AR coating. The previous versions did have a light coating on the inside of the crystal, but nowhere near the deep blue tint of the genuine. A genuine Navitimer crystal will be invisible from almost any angle. All of the current lineup of Navitimer reps are cursed with and incorrect date font. Although Breitling bases all modern Navitimers on the Valjoux 7750 or 7753, they use their own datewheels, so not even the Swiss 7750 datewheel is correct. Bracelets The Navitimer bracelet is actually quite good. Although the markings, like most reps, are not as deep and defined as the genuine. One obvious clue to a rep bracelet is that the screw heads for the removable links are on different sides on either side of the bracelet. The gen bracelet has all screw heads on the same side. The other obvious tell is that the end link at the buckle is one piece on the rep while the gen is made of individual pieces. The stamping on the buckle extension is also very light with the word “Breitling” being noticeably smaller. Now that we are aware of the common flaws of all Navitimer models, lets look at each model for their unique flaws. Navitimer 50th Anniversary Edition This is one of the more rare reps out there. It is by far the least accurate Navitimer rep available, so there are not a lot of examples of it in our community. This one features a manual wind Seagull movement, which leads to its poor subdial spacing, incorrect subdial function as well as improperly aligned crown and pushers. Also, the see through caseback on this one is pure fantasy as the gen has a solid back. Also, the case on this model is polished while the genuine is brushed. A newer 7750 based version of the 50th Anniversary Navitimer has been recently released on King’s site. Again, this version is incorrectly polished. Also, the subdial spacing and function as well as the pusher/crown alignment is inaccurate because of the incorrect movement. This one also uses the wrong caseback (from the tricompax A23322 model). The most obvious flaw on the 1st generation is its lack of a date window at the 4:00 position. The new model does have a date window, but the date wheel is the wrong color for some inexplicable reason. Date font, window size and position are all well off the mark. Also, the word “Date” should be on the outside of the window, not on the inside. This model only comes with a white dial, but the subdials on this one should be black, not white, according to all my references. The slide rule doesn’t align, and the numbers are too small. The red “60” on the insert is also printed too high. The incorrect caseback is from the Modern Navitimer 23322. Quick summary • Polished case incorrectly finished • Incorrect subdial spacing and function • Incorrect crown/pusher alignment • Wrong caseback • No AR • No date window (Seagull version) • Wrong date font, window size, position (7750 version) Bottom line This one is verging on fantasy isn’t it?. The Navitimer Serie Speciale (Fighters Edition) Although a member favorite, the Serie Speciale is IMO not the most accurate of all the available Navitimer reps. The most obvious “tell” on this one is that the rep case and bracelet are polished, while the genuine comes with a very cool looking brushed finish. The crystal on the rep is another obvious giveaway, as it uses the same slightly domed crystal as all other Navitimer reps. The genuine model uses a domed crystal, similar in shape to that of the speedmaster, with a very heavy lip. The current model is the second generation of the Serie Speciale rep. The only difference between the two is the dial and the use of the 28k 7750 movement in the newer version. The dial on the original version apparently featured odd looking stickers on the subdials. Although the subdial stickers disappeared on the 2nd gen Fighters the “pie pan” effect and subdial look is not as accurate on this model. The sharp lip on the edge of the subdials is not accurate and the piepan effect is not as pronounced as on the gen. The caseback has all the correct markinks, but it is spoiled by the misspelling of the name “Messerschmitt”. Also, the overall shape of the caseback is off as the genuine has a more conical shape to it. The Navitimer rep manufacturer seems to have used one case for all models. The Serie Speciale case and bezel are different however. The gen bezel seems to be deeper with a more pronounced shape to the ground out half circles. (The following images feature Importr’s modded (Brushed) rep, as well as his genuine Fighters Edition) The shape of the case where the lugs meet the bezel also differs to accommodate the deeper bezel. Quick summary • Polished case incorrectly finished • Incorrect bezel shape • Incorrect case shape • Wrong crystal shape • Misspelling on caseback • Incorrectly recessed subdials • No AR • Inaccurate slide rule (2nd Gen) • Wrong date font Bottom line This one is not the most accurate, but with some modding can be a very nice piece. Two Tone Old Navitimer II For those that are looking for a more accurate version of a 6-9-12 Navitimer, I suggest you look at the Two Tone Navitimer II. Some dealers mistakingly advertise this watch as a “Serie Speciale”, when in fact this is a replica of a Navitimer II that was produced by Breitling prior to 2003, when the 7750 (6-9-12) was replaced by the tricompax 7753. The case and bezel on this one is very accurate. The dial markings are somewhat accurate, but the inner set of numbers on the slide rule are too small making them a little hard to read. The slide rule markings on the black dialed version are mistakenly printed in white, not in gold as they should be. The subdials should not be recessed. Recessed subdials seem to be a feature of the more modern Navitimers. Also, the piepan effect is not as pronounced on the rep. From what I can tell, the subdial hands on this model are incorrectly colored. They should have black hands, not silver, although this could have been a variation that Breitling incorporated at some point The caseback is incorrect. The shape of the genuine is more conical , and the rep is marked incorrectly as it is actually the caseback from the 23322 tricompax Navitimer. The proper model for this model is 13322. Quick summary • Wrong caseback • Incorrectly recessed subdials • Wrongly colored hands • No AR • Inaccurate slide rule • Wrong date font Bottom line Why don’t they make this one in SS? This model would be great for adding a genuine dial and ETA movement. Some inaccuracies, but there are so many variations of this model, only a Breitling WIS would be able to spot them. Tricompax Modern Navitimer In 2003 Breitling returned the Navitimer to its original tricompax (3-6-9) layout. The genuine is powered by a Valjoux 7753, while the rep uses a reconfigured Asian 7750. Because of this, the datewheel is lowered to make room for the extra gears needed to move the 30 minute totalizer to the 3:00 position. This is commonly referred to as a “recessed datewheel”. This is probably the biggest glaring flaw on this watch, as the datewheel sits well below the dial, creating shadows and a noticeable gap. The date font is not only wrong on this model (as discussed in “common flaws”), but the single digits on this model (1-9) should be rotated 90º toward the center of the dial. The current Modern Navitimer rep is the second version of this model. The first generation used a 21k Asian 7750, had an accurate slide rule ring, and a slightly better piepan shape on the subdials, but lacked the recessed subdial lip. The 1st generation Navi also had an incorrect matte finish to the dial. The newer version has the correct lip around the subdials, correct glossy finish on the dial, and a slightly bigger and better defined date window. The caseback on this model is correctly marked, but the shape is incorrect. The genuine caseback has a conical shape to it, rising up to the wings medallion in the center. Quick summary • Recessed date window (too small) • Wrong date font * Incorrectly positioned single digit dates • Incorrectly shaped caseback • No AR • Inaccurate slide rule (2nd Gen only) Bottom line Some people despise the recessed datewheel, but in my opinion it is the most accurate of the current batch of Navi reps. After all, the factory created the case set based on this model, then used it for all the other models. Slide rule usage guide Anton has posted an in depth instruction manual for slide rule usage on the Navitimer. You can view that post here... Anton's Guide

Okay...it's a New Year and you've vowed to stop being a wallflowered geek, and get out there in the Land-O-Players. If you want to get in the game...you don't have to be rich, you don't have to be buff and you don't have to dress well. It's all about MIND POWER and dazzling people with your wit and intelligence. How do you do this? Simple...change every aspect of your personality (if required), and amaze them with demonstrations of suaveness and sophistication and a flash of that winning smile. Slides Rules...Yeaaah Baby! Oh...remember there have been great advances in modern dentistry and practicing good personal hygeine doesn't hurt either. If you're looking for pick up lines and high style fashion tips...don't look here. But if you need to increase your confidence and give yourself a sense of purpose...I've got your six, man...and it's all contained in Toad's Guide to the Circular Slide Rule QUESTION: How is using a slide rule going to help me win friends and influence women? ANSWER: With the ammunition contained in this guide you will be able to: Fill lulls in silence with the dulcet tones of your inane and senseless ramblings Assert yourself as having great dimension beyond your natural good looks Assure them that you have the ability to hunt for and kill your own food and ensure the survival of your clan or tribe ...well...maybe not the latter, but you might have a shot with the first two points. I mean Revenge of the Nerds couldn't be wrong...could it? OVERVIEW There are a few decent slide rule guides circulating on the web. There are some frighteningly passionate slide rule afficianados and collectors out there...crazy. I mean, who would spend their free time researching, reading, writing about and collecting something like slide rules? How about taking pictures, close-up macro shots, making elaborate lighting rigs, complaining about small details like scale alignment, fonts, recessed nature of some of the slides, smoothness of the slide, etc? RWG WIS's are well above that sort of behaviour. And yes...I'm ignoring my family and wife to write this guide so you all better appreciate it. Anyways...here are some of the better guides: Anton's RWG Guide to Using the Slide Rule Navitimer.net hxxp://www.chronomaddox.com/breitling/Instructions/navitimer/navitimer_instructions.html Wiki's Slide Rule Entry Andrew Davie's Univirtual Slide Rule Emulator...cooool!! Although there are a couple guides on RWG about using the basic slide ruler found on the Navitimers, the inspiration for making another Slide Rule guide is that in researching how to use this fine mechanical device, I found very little information on using the Bentley 6.75 slide rule, and I found no decent guides in existence that used actual watches for the instruction. All guides seemed to use the existing Omega or Breitling drawings which I thought made it a bit difficult to translate to actual usage using the real watch. I'm not going to dive too much into the history of the use of slide rules in watches, but suffice it say, that Breitling markets itself as the first company to use a circular slide rule with a chronograph with the release of the Chronomat in 1942 using the Type 42 circular slide rule design. Type 42 in 1942...coincidence or scandal? To me, this means that other watches likely had circular slide rules...but no other combined the slide rule with the chronograph functions. 1940's Breitling Chronomat If you want some great historical reading on the Chronomat history, check out Altro's Chronomat history on Watchuseek (I stole some of his historical shots for use here): [*]hxxp://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=9103 [*]hxxp://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=13334 Important notes in this history are that in the 70's Breitling avertising stated: "Are you a specialist in calculations? Designed for industrial or sports timing,enthusiastically recommended by businessmen, the BREITLING CHRONOMAT can do all calculations: multiplication, division, rules of three, interest anddiscount rates, exchange rates, etc...Equipped with logarithmic scales it is the slide rule of the engineer and man of commerce." If that doesn't say "Player"...I don't know what does. See? Slide rule knowledge will help you win favour and influence people. More importantly, the Breitling ad spiel outlines the capabilities of this design which are really quite nifty when you think of what is possible without the use of a computer. 1940's Hollywood Star C

Disclaimer, My photo skills are crap, Sorry Where do we start? When I first started on reps I always shied away from Rolex because of the new bling image, but I got educated along the way, I leaned of the time when this was the watch for real men of the age. People who took life to the limits in the direction they chose, and the watch they chose was one that would survive as long as they did and may be longer. I am not Steve McQueen or Jacques Cousteau I know these are not 1680s but the heritage is of the vintage Rolex and the persona of the wearer But I have had some excitement in my life, done a few wild and stupid things and I still do, and the watches that those people wore survived, they wore Rolexes! Then they were new and the best available (opinion not fact) at the time, They looked good and were true tools made to a standard rather than a price and made to last! Heck they have even been worn by our favorite agents until they sold out to Omega. Last year I retired from the Military after a long career and got a real job, I found I had a little bit of cash that I could spare and thought I would get me a white 1680, and It took a bit of looking to find the right one but in the end I did. Yes I wanted a luminover service dial and hands because I want to wear it and it to be usable all the time, I got lucky as I still have the silver date wheel and it all looks like almost brand new, that’s because it has just come from the RSC which is also why I can be pretty sure that the comparison is of a genuine watch with genuine parts, a comparison of two watch's that are about as close as I can get them with in the realms of sensible price rep building and without going all out franken, My rep has not been artificially aged since I built it the year before last and the case was not brand new when I got it, I don’t polish it every day but I do wear it in the garage, garden, hot tub on the bike in the car and to work, it looks about right to me for a looked after 30 year old watch. The Gen is one of the later versions Late 70s and according to the paper work the date wheel is original so if you like the silver DWs there is the provenance to have one on a later 1680. So what do the comparisons show then, data is below and I would say they are close enough to be with in different batch or machine tolerances almost, the differences are impossible to spot on your own wrist. Please let me know if you want another angle measured wont you. Work performed on MBW case Crown guards front, rear, inside, outside tops and bottoms (more than once) Crown seat lowered Lugs drilled 1.3mm Dial opening opened by 0.2mm Case polished 90% of the serial numbers ect have been worn away by strap and end link movement 93150 MBW rep bracelet smoothed, polished and re-brushed Gen Crown Gen Tube Clarks 127 crystal Not sure on the combination of the bezel now as I have had a few and this combination of retaining ring washer and bezel works and looks best Insert ??? but it clicks in to the bezel like gen Pearl cartel budget vintage sub Movement 21.600 bph 2846-2 with a white MBW overlay like a service one would be, hacking lever added (because a 1575 can be a hacking movement. I am still thinking about removing the quick change for the date and making it single position but not sure whether it is worth making a movement less useable is a good idea. Dial and hands Tritec re-lumed MBW white dial with unknown hands, I was just packing my spares away the other day and I had been reading what Highoeyazmuhudee (name far too long and hard to spell) was saying about them and since I have been looking at the gen then the difference is quite glaring. Well I noticed these in a tube in my rolex spares box and thought” hello they look better” and they do! Just a touch too short in the hour hand area but with a better sized circle. Where they came from???? I can only think of clarks as that is where I last got hands from, but I cant be sure on that, oh and the seconds hand belonged to set I took off as the one in the new set, the tail was too short to eclipse the center of the merc star and the center where the tube fits was too small. My impressions of the rep to gen Well I know all the ins and outs of this as I built it, I would like to have a better movement in there where the date wheel turns the correct way, but is it worth the expense?, well from operation feel and time keeping front, no it is not. The watches feel the same they act the same. To confirm this I was having a very small GTG with a member here who can join in if he likes, but when I gave him both the other day, I am not sure what the thought initially but I did not tell him one was a gen I assumed he thought they were both reps and he did seem a bit shocked to find that one was still under guarantee from an RSC, that tells me that from the look and feel they are pretty close. The little differences that are still possible to solve Well as you can see the clasp is not that close to the gen, but a gen clasp is not cheap, The end links could be better and the right number, and the last link on the bracelet should be folded sheet rather than solid. The biggest tell apart from the dial (and I still think the MBW white is one of the better ones) is the inside of the crown guards, I don’t think at home this could be solved, they would have to be milled to keep that circular look like the gen has, but from the front and sides we are good. Is a gen crystal needed, NOT AT ALL, the clarks is perfect! So apart from replacing more parts with gen parts like the insert ect I am not sure this could get a lot better for reasonable money. Now the comparison shots Hands with the better ones i found Face on Individual Gen Modded Rep Crown side Gen on top Note the round form of the inside of the Gen crown guards that once you open the front of the CG on the MBW you lose 9 side gen on top Note differences in the location of the adjustment holes in the clasp! Siht out of focus shot of the CGs but you can see the inner shape Shows to me that 1.3mm drill bit is use for the lug holes is spot on. Case back Lugs The rep is on the right and you can see that the RSC polished lugs look thinner Difference in the clasp gen is on the right and is a later version 93150 with the lines on the fliplock, not also the softer shape to the bracelet links CG and crown height profile, note the MBW did have the slight droop to the wrist side before i removed it copying another CG picture before of an early 5513 i think Gen on the left And from the back A daylight lume shot (dont hear that every day) And the money shot no photo shopping, watches were running just go to a dark room point and shoot! Guys and Gals (if we have any females) i hope this was usefull and may help you in your builds and i think it shows what is possible with a bit of work and some thing to compare with. Any one in Europe got a spare Ofrie pearl as this one is off centered?

Speaking of spanking the monkey...this video always brings a smile to my face. *** Adult Language*** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01J-fLSEwf4

Damn, such a f'n shame when sh*t like this happens. Not the first time and unfortunately, not the last time. What also sucks is that you will, being a stand up member, will now have to sell some of your prize collection or take out a loan. I feel for ya. Does anyone know where TEXSKI lives?

Carry on for me. This a thread to keep an eye on for most of us I think. The ptsa3135 and yuki are very different. The yuki seems to be a much closer copy on all areas than the first sa3135.

I have both movements and they are definitely different...I don't want to hijack watchers thread, so I'll start a new one to point out the differences.

I drive a nice car and have a nice house, and I am clearly considered well-off in terms of my finances (and it's not an inheritance). I can afford gens, but all my 5 of my watches are reps. Reason is simple, I love watches, and I love the brands. Homages don't work for me. I admire my watches as how you'd admire an ad for the watch. I never buy reps that have too obvious tells. Things like AR that are too blue, screws that are blue, the wrong markers, or a unreliable movement, are reps that I don't buy. I am fascinated by watchmaking, but I haven't had the time to start even exploring it. I can stare at the movement of my open-back Pam 111 all day, just watching it tick. One day, I hope I can dissemble a watch myself and assemble it back myself again. I've never had people call me out on my watches, because people normally assume that they can't be rep based on my lifestlye. When people do ask me about the price of my watches, I tell them what a gen costs. And if people ever ask me if the watch is a rep, i'll answer: "what do you think?" with a wink. The way I figure it, if the person can accurately tell me that it's a rep, I can have a good conversation with him/her about watches. Thing is, I've never been asked this question before. What I won't do is to attend AP get-togethers with AP owners, nor compare watches with a stranger with an authentic Pam. I wish I could, and I wish they'd accept me, but realistically speaking, I know I'd receive disdain and disgust rather than curiosity and friendliness. It's a lonely hobby, but one that I enjoy, because I can never see myself springing for a gen when I know a good rep is there. E.g. a Pam 111 is not a watch with a horological background that I would be impressed with. Whether it is a nice watch, is a totally different matter. A good patek complication, or a JLC, or an AP (not the commercial ROO trash) would be one that I would buy and invest in, and keep it within the family as a heirloom.

for some clarity - i love this watch...it's definitely a looker - especially on the black rubber ocean racer strap...the "flaws" i mention above exist - but they do not significantly take away from this watch...it's disappointing that the AR and superlume is not up to snuff; which is surprising to me with all these latest high quality reps...anyone who has every owned a breitling will know they are defined by terrific AR and toxic lume...that said - i do enjoy this watch - a welcome change from all the chronos in my collection...i will probably invest some more into it, to bring the AR and lume up to par... i still think the v2 skyland is one of the best replica breitlings out of the box...none of the rep Breits are perfect - but the skyland is close...but i strongly recommend the seawolf - yellow dial - without a doubt...

Hmm, tough one. Sorry for this. Anyway I see 2(3) solutions: 1. If you have the ambition and tools, you can open the watch and try to rotate the marker counter clockwise, carefully.Taping your tools in order to avoid scratching the dial or marker, applying firm power. I do not know exactly how that 6 o´clock marker is attached to the dial, but it seems well centred and being connected via 1 pivot to the dial plate. The only issue is that the marker is rotated some degree clockwise. 2. Sending the watch back to China. The less stressful way. No risk to screw up with watch opening & vice versa, but there is again the risk with the customs. This time I would insist having some QC pics, so you know what to expect. 3. Send the watch to a watch modder or watchmaker, near you. Wish you good luck on fixing this issue and please keep us updated.

As always, with reps (clones are reps), have it serviced upon receipt. Problems like this are quite typical. Arguments can always be made that the huge price differentials between gens & reps/clones cannot be justified. However, the differences (in fit & finish) are real & it is up to the buyer as to what that difference is worth.

Just a small rant! When I first started here I bought a 127 & a 104 back in 2009. Did not like them very much because I thought they where too big. Rollies was my game, and was before I ever came here. But now the bug has bitten me again.... With the release of the 1950 3 day series, the fever has started again. And the 44mm has grown on me. First I bought a 236K because of the new 7753 movements (love it, wearing it now) then I wanted the 359M because the dial spoke to me Still waiting for it to be delivered. And THEN I found the 351 with the brown dial and titanium case, and decided I needed that one too (AAAARGH) ordered that last night. Then I went on a strap spree.......... 2 Malio straps 1 Historic & one Classic. One Paneray hornback, One C&B Flottiglia X-M.A.S e.t.c Now my rollies get very little attention. But it might change again in the future Panerai fever is EXPENSIVE. I am happy I am not a very wealthy man because GEN Pan fever would be hard... The good thing about reps is that you are not limited to buying just one. Loving this one! Ambivalent about the SS strap though, its nice but...... Waitng for this. And this