offshore

Hmmmm, Would I sound too cynical, if I questioned what you may actually receive? ( If anything?) "If it looks to good to be true, it probably is" Offshore

Those look the same as the ones which fit into a Rolex! What diameter are the screws? Have a look at these- http://watchbitz.com.au/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=67 Now I realise the correct length is not in this assortment, however I'm sure once you work out the diameter, and thread, it won't be difficult to source the correct item. Offshore

BK, Sorry to hear that your rep experience has been less than fulfilling, however you have a passion for watches, and their repair, so you can still find the best information on the Net right here. I too, no longer dabble in reps, yet I have remained around this place for some years as I truly believe in the level of knowledge and comradeship within these walls. So stick your nose in from time to time, say hello, and benefit from the incredible depth of expertise here. You are always welcome, there's always a spot at the bar! Offshore PS, We haven't even started on the boats bit! (Or diving)

My gut feeling is that a 288 is the way to go, (the existing is 289, but it is extremely tight) although if it was a 1 piece a 289 would probably be fine. Either way it shouldn't alter the price much if anything, and we will have better answers within a day or two. O/S Edit: Thats 28.8 mm OD.

I tried soaking in acetone, and then tried water. To no avail, except the delam disappeared! I believe sfa got his apart, although it had already delaminated pretty badly, and he damaged the MG in doing so. Haven't heard of any other succesful separations. @Fred, It will be interesting to see what price you are offered on an all sapphire! The other question to still be answered is as to what size it needs to be. If the factory would do 1 offs, some experimentation would be in order. O/S

A quick update. First thanks to those who have contributed various thoughts and ideas. Unfortunately I am still at a loss as to where to now take this one right now. I have thought at length about the issue, and received much input from others who are knowledgeable in these things, and I am continually lead to believe that the issue is connected with the tolerances in the engineering between the case, the crystal sealing ring, and the crystal. Simply, the crystal is too big for the hole into which it fits. Once the case heats or cools and expands/contracts, the crystal (or the lower mineral glass section) moves, and the upper sapphire section doesn't. Creating a shear effect. There are many options to fix the issue, however as this is a new offering, I would hope that finally the situation will be resolved by the manufacturers, ( Both case, crystal and assemblers) The easy and best answer is a new crystal smaller in diameter, IMHO. Whether that is a solid, (either sapphire- ??? cost) (Mineral- ?? Not as acceptable) or another laminated version, rests with those who build these things. For those trying to repair their own, I would think a 288 or maybe 287 @ 4.5 thick is the answer. I am tempted to construct and install a 288 from 1.5 and 3.0 MG crystals as a test. However this won't answer the question of dissimilar materials. With no immediate access to a 1.5 sapphire @ 288, we cannot "test" this theory properly. Even if we had them, we don't really know the exact original lamination methods, so our test crystal may still be found wanting. I am reliably informed that some dealers are no longer offering this item due to the large % of complaints/returns. Unfortunately (and I am guessing here) we may find that the cases returned may simply be fitted with another (same) crystal and returned to the owners. (With the inevitable repeat failures) Some dealers are supplying replacements, but we do not know exactly what these are. (Read - are they also just the same? Probably). My guess is this has been a fairly large production run. So there have been a large quantity of crystals commissioned. Which (unfortunately ) WILL be used. Maybe the best hope is for high volumes of sales in the "retail" market, to dispose of these. ( Pity the poor guy buying one on the street!) I am also reliably informed that there are no immediate plans for another run of different crystals, or in the foreseeable future. And certainly not for a 4.5 thick sapphire! Methinks the manufacturers right now, just want it to go away. And it won't. So until we get some more information, or someone comes up with an answer, I don't have one. I will probably build a 288 - all MG this week, and fit it. However, even if this works, it doesn't finally answer the question/problem. But may be at best a short term fix. (Or I may sand the existing laminated crystal back...but as it has already sheared to a degree, any result may be inconclusive) I suppose if we get a replacement, and sand it back to +/- 288 and install, and it doesn't fail, we may have an answer. So many questions...so little time~! Offshore

@sfa, The sapph is still too tight to "drop" in, so I can see excess UV all over the place if I try to press it onto UV. O/S

Yep....Permanent! O/S

Agreed, Sticky it is! O/S

The crystal has now had a day in the sun, soaking up what little UV was around. It appears as before, and the delam is not noticeable to the naked eye, nor under 3X mag. I am now becoming more persuaded, that Nanug's theory, of excessive loadings on a 2 part crystal, during temperature changes , may have some validity. The extremely tight fit of the MG portion of the crystal and the variation in diameters is what leads me back to this idea.. This could be relatively easily cured, by removing the crystal retaining ring, and gluing in the crystal using UV glue, EXCEPT for 1 small issue. At this time, no one has succeeded in removing the bezel, (including yours truly), and as anyone who has glued crystals in will know, there is always a little excess glue which needs to be cleaned off....and the way the seat is located in this case, I fear some excess glue may find its way into the bezel mechanism, with subsequent disastrous results! One would normally never install a crystal by glueing, without 1st removing the bezel, and I am loathe to try with this one! The other option is to try to marginally reduce the diameter of the existing 2 part crystal by sanding, and repressing it into the retaining ring. I confess to be running out of ideas on this little challenge, so any further ideas are most welcomed. Offshore

Interesting indeed. Unfortunately, their instructions for the bezel removal don't work or apply to the rep. (Bugger) Must be a different system. Also the locking ring pictured doesn't exist on the rep. So there is nothing holding the rep crystal in, except that dinky plastic retaining ring the Chinese use, and the 4.5mm crystal contact with it. And the fact that the crystal is BLOODY tightly fitted into the case. Are those pics pertinent to the new release gens, or are they only talking about the original watches here? O/S

Alright, I clearly see the dome, and it doesn't protrude above the bezel, like this current iteration. It would be bloody easy to fit a 2mm double dome, and they are easy to find in sapph or MG. Do we know for sure that the gen is flat bottom? I could easily fit a double dome if this is a way forward. O/S

Here is a write up on it. I'll go out on a limb here, and guess that the "Swiss' movement, originates in China! Seems strange that Bulova would detract from the original Accutron brand by now calling a mech an Accutron. Good looking watch, whatever way its made. O/S

A domed like that would be a magnifier...I don't think these things have a dome! And we are seeking 1:1 aren't we? O/S

Is the gen domed? O/S

Tough little mothers , these are! After 5 hours in the freezer @ below freezing, there is no change to the crystal. So as I was making my morning cup of coffee, I poured a bit of the extra hot water from the kettle into a soup bowl. In went the crystal, straight from the freezer. I was sort of half expecting a mini explosion, or at least a crack, but Nada, nothing. Left it for 5 minutes to thoroughly heat up, and reefed it out with a teaspoon. And it had certainly gotten hot (burned my fingers when I picked it up!) A close inspection, mag lamp and microscope reveals no change from what was seen last night. The original delam is still vaguely discernable under the microscope, but can't be seen under 3X mag, and certainly not with the naked eye. I do think the only reason it can even be seen under the microscope at 40X is when I switch on the backlit ability (which I normally don't use) which would be used for inspecting laboratory slides. Its unfortunately an overcast day today, so the UV level is low. I have been threatening to buy a UV lamp for curing crystal installs, so I think a shopping trip may be in order later today; this experiment is justification for the expense, and I can save myself having to put watches outside every time I do an install with UV glue. I'm not expecting UV to have any effect on it, but its worth a shot. I do however think we need to increase the range of temperature change if we are going to get it to delam or break, but is there much point? That becomes just plain destruction testing (which I'm sure Nanug awaits with glee) but hell, we are just trying to accelerate conditions which these are exposed to, and I don't think a temperature range greater than zero to 100C would ever be experienced by one of these. I'm now at a loss as to where to take this experiment, so once again I seek input from brains more astute than the one inside this old head. Offshore

Yeh.. right, this is glass we are taking about....liquid sand. Methinks this thing is going to die. O/S

OK B, I'll give it 200c or 300C in the oven for 20 mins! And straight into cold, will that do it you reckon? (Sounds like we are baking a cake here) O/S

So maybe the old...out of the boiling water...into cold water trick? O/S

Hey B, Thats the sort of left field analysis i was looking for. The only two queries on this are- 1. The bottom crystal (MG) is tight, but it fits into one of those dinky plastic retainers....wouldn't they give enough to overcome this? 2. It is not possible at this time to remove the bezel. Now its ID is 290, so the crystal just clears when you press it. But you are working "inside" to try to get exact measurements on the retainer, and I don't have inside reading calipers. So I'm guessing a bit. However I am also thinking this problem is associated with temperature and the various materials' physical properties. So after I have subjected this thing to some freezing, and some UV and heat, we will go down this track. Nice work. Offshore

Hopefully !! O/S

Whilst out dropping this thing into the freezer, I was contemplating on how the delam had "disappeared." Now if the original lamination was done by using UV glue...maybe the 4 hours immersed in acetone allowed enough acetone to seep into the delam area, and reactivate the UV glue?? BUT it then sat for a further 3 hours in water, under a fluro lamp, and it has not as yet had any exposure to UV, to recure the UV glue, (if it is reactivated) And I have subsequently immersed it in water, just to complicate things. And now its in the freezer! Maybe too many tests to soon? I may just hope for a relatively warm morning tomorrow, and expose it to some UV and 20C sun 1st... although theoretically UV doesn't cure hard for 24 hours...maybe THEN it can have a stint in the cooker! O/S

Following my last post, I was thinking that all the issues have been claimed as started by water, and yet I had not subjected this thing to any water, only acetone. So I dropped it in a jar of water 3 hours ago. On inspecting it just now...the delamination is no longer visible!! Either to the eye or under a 3X mag lamp WTF? However when viewed under a 40X microscope, you can just barely make out the area which had delaminated, but either the water, or the previously immersed acetone, has found its way into the delam area, and masked the white out effect of the delam!! So that was 4 hours in acetone, followed by 3 hours in water, ( room temperature is around 18C - heated) Well I'm not for one moment thinking we have an answer here folks...I don't think this thing is giving up without a struggle, so I have decided to give it some temperature treatment. First off, the crystal will be taken from its 18C-20C environment, and put in the freezer @ -4C. I will then inspect it, tomorrow morning (about 8 hours later) with the mag lamp and microscope, and make some further determinations in testing from there. I'm thinking it can go from freezing to heat. (either oven or microwave)...haven't thought that far ahead yet. Anyway into the freezer she goes. We are interested right now in any and all theories, so just keep throwing 'em up Gents. Maybe Nanug...who is known for his left of field testing methods, has some pearls of wisdom to offer here ?? Offshore.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! So- 4 hours into soaking in acetone, and there is not a sign of further delam. Not a skerrick of anything has found its way between the 2 crystals. If it was faulty glue surely there would be some signs by now! And even though we see a marginal variance in diameters, its not caused by stress in the install process, as there is no way a crystal can "hang up" during an install pressing...it could happen on removal (although the bigger diameter is the bottom one) So I am now searching for other reasons for this to happen. (I'll leave the crystal soak overnight, but I don't think I will see any change in the morning) So...........could it be that the 2 crystals vary so much in both composition and thickness, that they are expanding and contracting so differently during temperature variations, that they are literally pulling apart from each other? Something is causing the lamination to fail, and I'm pretty convinced it isn't water (or water/liquid/solvent intrusion) Now all/most of the problems were reported after exposure to water...so there would be a larger than normal temperature change at that time. One or two were out of the box....a box which had just transported by air, in a freezing cold cargo hold..... Wonder what we would see after a night in the freezer.....or 20 minutes in the oven? I may let this thing swim in the acetone for a few more hours, and then stick it in the freezer, and see what transpires. We need a lamination expert inputting here about now! Offshore

Received the watch case in from MMA today, and commenced "surgery" A couple of comments on other aspects before we get to the crystal however. Firstly during disassembly I noted that the stem is using a stem extender, obviously a sufficiently long stem was not available, so an extender was thrown in. I also noted that the rear case O ring is unusually placed around the circumference of the case back, above the thread, and in this instance was too big and not seating very well (I have deliberately draped it over the case back to show the oversize of it) So onto the crystal- Firstly it was an absolute mother to get out. I failed to remove it with two various presses with nylon dies...there was just too much give in the nylon. So I resorted to a GS press with a rubber cap pushing into a bakelite die, and it finally popped . The lamination can be clearly seen here. The delamination on this one was hard to catch in a photo but can be seen here at about 1 o'clock. One other interesting point, is that the two crystals which have been joined are marginally different diameters- The Mineral glass (3mm thick) is 28.9 mm Whilst the sapphire is a whisker smaller at 28.89mm Seating of the crystal is into a sealing ring ( I hate 'em) This photo is not to brilliant, however the plastic sealing ring can be clearly seen, as its dark green. Now MMA is showing extreme faith in my abilities (or lack thereof) and has given me permission to test to destruction if needed...I just hope it doesn't get to that. My theory is that the crystal can be seperated by soaking in acetone, which is where we are at right now. I am hoping that the acetone will not have (any) effect on the AR, however I have talked this through with MMD, and he is happy to proceed and split them using this as an initial trial. I then propose to relaminate with Loctite UV glue 358, and run a very thin bead of silicone around the circumference to seal the laminate, once the UV has cured. There is a bevel edge on the MG crystal which will allow this bead to be effective without adding to the overall diameter (I hope ) At the same time, MMA is speaking with his watch supplier, in the hope that he can get a solid 1 piece sapphire, which is the obvious answer. I'm also now wondering if we are seeing varying expansion rates between the 2 crystals due to their different composition and thicknesses. Maybe they are just pulling themselves apart through expansion and contraction? Another alternative is to build a 4.5mm thick crystal from 2 seperate MG crystals which I have here, and we will visit that one later. So the 1st steps are under way,I'll try to update maybe in 24 hours when we have moved a little further down the track. Offshore