shimside11

I got a similar response from a sales lady at a dealer (omega, ebel, breitling, etc.). I was wearing a black SS dive watch (Invicta sub clone) and I was looking at a black dial Omega Aqua Terra. She said "you'll probably want to look at the silver dial, this one looks like the one that you already have on". Sure, I see the similarities...black dial...hmmm. SS bracelet...you might have a point there if it wasn't for the bezel with the little numbers on it, the cyclops, hands, markers, Omega vs Invicta? (give me a break), and of course the co-axial escapement far beyond your ken. I would expect that response from any number of my friends or the guy on the street, but she was selling the damn things. I almost went to the manager and said "keep her away from the watches and don't let her handle any of them until she gets some kind of appreciation for them". Yes, we are freaks. I have to admit it. To most people a watch is a watch. With my friends and associates, I've learned to keep it very low profile and only talk about them if they are genuinely interested...pearls before swine and all that.

I totally agree. Never try to pass off a rep as a gen at an AD. That is just inviting ridicule. Wear it there proudly, dressed nicely, with your best manners, and chances are you will have the staff intrigued by the quality while falling over themselves to compare it to the gen. (Great way to compare without having to sneak around). Skippy the WIS isn't going to whine when he knows that you could buy and sell him, and you know ten times more about watches than he does. One caution, you've got to have the attitude and confidence to pull it off. If you don't look like you could drop 5k on a real one right now they will eat you alive (maybe not to your face, and certainly will not offer to show you others or give you a catalogue) and talk about you behind your back when you leave. And by all means, have fun with it. It's easy to take this stuff too seriously.

I took my new PAM 120 rep into my local Panerai dealer. I told her I just got it after trying on a gen, just to see if I liked the look and feel. It took a few minutes for her to realize that it was a rep. I tried on a few 40mm (the 51 and the 48). Also tried the 112 and a couple of other 44mm (they are growing on me and now don't seem too big anymore). They actually had about 10 Panerais in stock, which is rare for my area. Now, a rep is a rep and will never be a gen, but for under 200USD I came out of there feeling very good about my new watch. The colour is very well done, the dial is crisp and compares favourably to the genuine blue dial that the customer next to me was wearing. I really couldn't tell a difference in the feel of the rep 120 and the gen 51. The only real giveaway was the poor date mag. The lume is also very weak but it's not that obvious in the daylight (bad pun, sorry...). I have no problem at all wearing this one in public. Oh yeah, BTW, she gave me a new 2006 catalogue which is a fantastic reference. From what I gather here, they are not that easy to come by.

@Joshua Thanks for clearing that up. I was starting to loose sleep What a fantastic watch. Thanks for the service and the quick delivery (even more so, as I understand that things are getting tight with the authorities lately). You'll be hearing more from me, that VC Overseas is calling me and I really don't think I can resist.

Here's a place to start. These guys have a good reputation. I contacted them by phone once and they seemed to know their stuff. Very accomodating. watchprince Good luck

Hmm...curiouser and curiouser. It seems that the PAM 120 isn't a 120 after all. Upon doing some research it appears that I have a rep of a PAM 69 or 70. I think the 69 is the bracelet model. They look almost identical except for the LswissL on the 69 and Swiss Made on the 120. Maybe the dial textures are different but I can't tell. The caseback has the markings of a 69. "op6529" is common to my rep and pics of the gen. Also the production indicates 5000. The 120 reads "op6625" and the production is 400 which I believe is correct for the 120. Here's a really bad pic from my phone. There is no current price list for the 69 or 70. The latest price was back in 03 or 04. Is the 120 a newer version of the 69? Does anyone know anything about these? Responses to any threads concerning this model are very rare and not much comes up in the search. Submariners are much easier to deal with and much more documented

Great choices. There is no substitute for the moon watch. There isn't a rep that's even close. Timeman.net looks like a great source and has a pretty good reputation. He's got some decent ones for 1500usd. There are "reduced" 35mm models for under 1k, but they look tiny on the wrist. The Cuervo y Sobrinos is very nice too. I saw several of them at various places in Vegas a few weeks ago. It's funny that everybody associates the exploded dial with Franck Muller now (including myself) even though it's been around since at least 1910. You would think that he invented it for all the copy it gets.

good post. very informative. thanks

I got the new PAM 120 this morning. I ordered it last thursday afternoon. After I was done, I realized that I had inadvertently paid twice. I sent Josh an e-mail and within 2 hours I had a refund on the duplicate transaction. TWO HOURS!! Along with the notice that he had sent back the duplicate payment, I also got a confirmation of the item and a tracking number. It was shipped out that day and I got it this morning (Wednesday - less than a week from my order). I have never had such a quick response, and such great service even from big domestic companies that specialize in mail order. Anyway, The watch exceeds all expectations. It is very solid and well put together. Having tried on a gen 3 weeks ago at Tourneau, I had a good idea of what it looked and felt like. The colour is right on. The bracelet is very heavy and there is no play in it. This really is not a <200usd watch. This is my first Panerai rep, and I must admit that the larger ones freaked me out a bit. The 40mm is a great size for someone with small wrists. It still has the girth and the substance of a 44mm but just not as big. But now I want a bigger one....I think that I've really caught the fever. I know that you're out there laughing "there goes another one". I'll post pics when I can get hold of a camera.

They are a company with Cuban roots. They were a very high-end jeweler in the pre-Castro days. They seem to have a good reputation since the name was brought back from the dead recently. They are advertising heavily in all of the watch magazines and other high end mags like the Robb Report. I think it's a nice looking watch, classic deco style. They are incorporating the cigar mistique into their advertising. Some (maybe all) come packaged in a mini humidor that you can use for your cigars. The whole thing is geared toward the Cuban heyday motif. I really like what I've seen of them.

That's a little disturbing. What is wrong with it? Are the hands sticking, or is it just dead? When did you get it?

Thanks. That is a great link - worthy of a bookmark. I have a suspicion that this may not be the end for me. I've been fighting off the Panerai intrigue for about a year since I first tried on a gen 111. From what I've seen here it sucks you in and you have to keep getting more. It's been two days since my order. Having a hard time waiting.

Have you tried PM?

I posted this topic awhile ago and got no responses. I wonder if anyone has any info on the PAM 120. 40mm blue dial. It must be either rare or new or unpopular because almost nothing comes up on any search here or on the other boards. All I know is that it had a production run of only 400. I tried one on at Tourneau in Las Vegas a few weeks ago and couldn't stop thinking about it. Great look and feel, nice colour. I ordered one from Josh yesterday so I will post a review when I get it. I understand that the 050 is the same thing in black (?) This is my first Panerai rep, so I really don't know what I'm looking at. From the posts on the 050, it seems to be a very close rep. I know that there are alot of die-hard PAM fans here. Any info at all would be appreciated.

As I understand it, the break in period allows the lubrication, which may have settled, to work through the moving parts of the watch. The main thing is in the balance and escapement. As the balance wheel has less friction due to the dispersement of lubrication, it is able to rotate more smoothly. If it doesn't travel its entire arc, the watch goes faster than it should because each rotation allows the escape wheel to advance the time by one beat. That is why a new watch slows down some over the break-in period. Take it for what it's worth. I'm very much a novice, but I'm learning. If I'm totally off base I'm sure someone will correct me, but from what I've read, that is the basic idea of the break-in period.

As you are testing the magnetism of the bracelet, be sure to use the most powerful magnet you can find. You can just put it right there next to your watch. You can also use a magnet to test the magnetic properties of the hairspring. If the watch stops working you know that you have a genuine automatic movement. Sorry, in a bit of a sardonic mood today. Thanks for your indulgence

Coals to Newcastle, eh? I'm sure that you can source some of the grade AAA+++ swiss made 99.99% reps from some of the sites we don't mention here. They make them there, right? No need to import them. Although they do cost a bit more, because we all know that if you're spending less than about 800usd you're getting cheap Asian rubbish. And if you can't get the super primo elite reps right there in Switzerland, you may have to consider the venerated Italian made reps. I understand that they are up there at the top of the "grading scale" of replicas (does that come from COSC?).

The way the copy is worded is really an insult to anyone who appreciates watches. It reduces the credibility of the company and approches the "Dr. Smith's Amazing Cure-all Elixir" school of marketing. Am I supposed to think that these guys have discovered a way to make a 20,000.00 mechanical masterpiece for what...50.00 their cost? Maybe the Swiss watchmakers just pop these things out one every couple days and mark them up a million percent and then go on holiday for six months? Replicacenter, Idealwatches, Sharper Image, say it isn't so. The lawyers must have figured "tourbillon-style" is good enough to keep them out of jail. Caveat Emptor!

I have noticed several SMP rep fotos that have the bezel about three clicks off 12:00 to make the HE valve look positioned correctly. I've always thought that was amusing and amaturish.

I'm considering the Navitimer (tri-compax blue dial). I live in a rather prosperous area myself, and I've seen them on wrists here. Breitlings are great looking watches so I wouldn't hesitate. As for the exclusivity, when I'm out and about, I see Seiko, Citizen, Fossil (shudder), Timex, Rolex, etc., and wannabees of every kind. It will probably be some time before Breitling reps or gens become too common. Rolex has that dubious honour among higher-end watches now, and if anyone is next in line it is Omega. If you want exclusive, I would be thinking IWC, VC, Patek, or maybe something like Harry Winston or Richard Mille if you want to be a little more creative. Vintage anything will also set you apart if you are into that. (Vintage Navi maybe?). You have to ask yourself "can I pull it off?" Exclusive is exclusive for a reason. One other thing. Breitling reps have traditionally sucked, it's just recently that we have come upon some good ones here, so if you see well made Breitling reps in the wild, they probably know of this place. Just come up to them and say "Jetmid" and offer the secret handshake.

Has anyone got the PAM 120? I've searched and there are about 4 results. I tried a gen on at Torneau a couple of weeks ago and haven't been able to get it out of my mind, but I'm not going to spend 5k on one. From what I can see, Josh's rep looks great. The closest I can find is the 050 rep (Sql pl, great post by the way.) Is the 050 the same thing only not blue? From what I've read that is what it seems to be. Case, bracelet, clasp, etc. I'm going to get it anyway, but I was just wondering if there was anything that I was missing, or any feedback that hasn't been posted yet. Thanks for your help.

Seriously, I think that a SS Sub is a very worthwhile purchase. I've personally got a "sub fund" that I'm throwing money at when I get a little extra. There really is nothing like a genuine. I was quoted about 4700usd by my AD so my target savings is 5k. (My problem is that I keep buying reps in the mean time, and diluting my watch collection with the damned things) The extra 1k that I was going to put away actually buys an Overseas, Navitimer, and really only ends up w/ 400.00 in the bank for the real deal. I guess it's just an occupational hazard after you've discovered reps. Go for it! I'm sure that you will be glad you got the gen.

If you pay over 200usd for one you're a fool. (sorry, couldn't resist)

Last Friday night I tried on the Santos 100 medium (38mm) TT at Cartier in the Wynn in Vegas. Very nice watch. Too bad it didn't have a deployant clasp for that kind of money (5600USD). I really think that the rep will be one of my next purchases. I also tried on the bigger one but it looked much too big on my wrist. I haven't compared the two directly, but the rep looks like it does justice to the gen. Give it a shot and tell us what you think. I'd get it now, but after trying on so many watches, it's down the priority list somewhat. current list: PAM 120 blue dial 40mm VC Overseas Omega Planet Ocean Cartier Santos 100 medium

Ok, I see the difference now. I'm looking at the manufacturer and its distribution channel as one entity. When a merchant becomes a retail outlet for a producer, I view them as assuming the last link of the value-added chain in representing the maker. In other words, they are still on the supply side of the delicate supply/demand equilibrium. Luxury goods are really a strange part of traditional commerce because such a big part of the appeal of a product is the intangible. That said, it looks to me like the free market functions just fine with the company we're discussing. Rolex sells every watch they bring to the market. Every year they raise prices, partially in an attempt to discover what the market will really bear. How far can they push their demographic before it rejects the high prices. If they find that it's too high, sales will wane and their former market will now get their luxury fix somewhere else. Maybe these things are actually priced too low since they keep selling out. (SS Daytonas are selling for 10kUSD+ on the secondary market. Retail is still 6k and change). If they get too greedy, their market will insist (by staying away) that they lower their prices. The invisible hand (fist?) comment applies here too. The bulls make money, the bears make money but the pigs get slaughtered. Eighteen years in the investment/securities business has taught me that the market's equilibrium is very tough and is hard to disrupt over the long term.