Edge

We have actually done this, to no avail, this was the course of action after the Aqua Terra incident which they STILL haven't changed. Very True, but when they become ONE entity which they are now, they have the same watches, suppliers, pictures, web sites, and pool resources and collaborate on pricing and deals and EVERYTHING, then they are ONE dealer not 2 so why do we need them, IF we say that we are ok with them having a site referenced on the forum or whatever then why can't they just have one site, with an email address with 2 aliases where you could contact either one, andy@blahblahblah.com and josh@blahblahblah.com simple. they are one dealer now since they share everything so we no longer need them both taking up a spot each. As for the posting on the forum instead of the site, WHO says that the board will allow links back to their site AT ANY point, so no noobs etc. would ever know their URL so they would NEED to post on the forum. That way what is being posted and said can be MODERATED by the staff, which we cannot enforce on an independant website. This is the reason for enforcing the rule of posting on the forum, because if we implement a uniform way of listing items, they would HAVE to stick to it, not just list however they please on their site. I for one would like to see the removal of any inference to their website permanantly, as it ensures uniformity and ensures that their listings can be and are subject to being MODERATED, they are then within the realm of control, whereas as an independant entity they are relatively uncontrollable. And YES!! before anyone says it, I would say the same should be done for Paul or Silix or King or anyone who has their own site, IF AND WHEN they step over the line in the fashion that these dealers have, until then they have the trust of the forum to continue with their site, but if they step over the line we could invoke the same restrictions on them.

I would like to add that these are merely MY suggestions, I am in now way saying that this is the way IT HAS to be, just giving my opinion on a POSSIBLE course of action. I look forward to the action taken and will stand behind whatever the mods and admin staff of RWG TRC and RWI can hopefully do together.

Please be patient with the admin/mods they have to consider the board at larg and must make informed decisions based on discussion, this discussion process is not quick as inevitably not all admin/mods may see things the same way and a consensus must be drawn. They will act in the best interests of the forum, I have full faith.

Well I think the time for procrastination and beating around the bush is done, we have had a lot of evidence against them and it's now time to act, not draw this out long enough that we lose interest and forget about it. We should stop tooing and froing and come to a resolution, my suggestion is this: RWG, RWI and TRC suspend their dealing privilidges on the boards for a set period of time, and make their section invisible for that time RWI removes them from the 5 star dealers list RWG, RWI and TRC stop all linking to their sites All 3 boards enforce new guidelines as to the outline of a sales listing; There must be detailed pictures of the front, back, sides, bracelet/strap and MOVEMENT There must be a detailed and ACCURATE description of the watch for sale (like TTK uses) We as a membership boycott them until they can PROVE to us that they have mended their ways I would also suggest that as Andrew and Josh, have ALL the same watches at ALL the same prices, and ALL the same pictures, they become ONE dealing entity, as apposed to the 2 they are at the moment. Therefore calling for the removal of one of the sites, as it would be redundant. When reinstated the 4 dealers should be watched closely for any indiscretions, and also MUST post all new watches on the forum, NOT JUST LINKING to a web page, the watch must be listed in the correct format or you will be punished. Any further counts of misrepresentation/LYING should result in an outright ban and removal. These are my thoughts, and though quite comprehensive are not difficult to follow and/or impliment. Now is the time for action, strike while the iron is hot, and let's not waste time, the more time we waste the less momentum this will have and we will just end up forgetting about it and moving on. Edge

Well I think the time for procrastination and beating around the bush is done, we have had a lot of evidence against them and it's now time to act, not draw this out long enough that we lose interest and forget about it. We should stop tooing and froing and come to a resolution, my suggestion is this: RWG, RWI and TRC suspend their dealing privilidges on the boards for a set period of time, and make their section invisible for that time RWI removes them from the 5 star dealers list RWG, RWI and TRC stop all linking to their sites All 3 boards enforce new guidelines as to the outline of a sales listing; There must be detailed pictures of the front, back, sides, bracelet/strap and MOVEMENT There must be a detailed and ACCURATE description of the watch for sale (like TTK uses) We as a membership boycott them until they can PROVE to us that they have mended their ways I would also suggest that as Andrew and Josh, have ALL the same watches at ALL the same prices, and ALL the same pictures, they become ONE dealing entity, as apposed to the 2 they are at the moment. Therefore calling for the removal of one of the sites, as it would be redundant. When reinstated the 4 dealers should be watched closely for any indiscretions, and also MUST post all new watches on the forum, NOT JUST LINKING to a web page, the watch must be listed in the correct format or you will be punished. Any further counts of misrepresentation/LYING should result in an outright ban and removal. These are my thoughts, and though quite comprehensive are not difficult to follow and/or impliment. Now is the time for action, strike while the iron is hot, and let's not waste time, the more time we waste the less momentum this will have and we will just end up forgetting about it and moving on. Edge

Nice to see a dealer going above and beyond, offering additional services because he has the watch in hand. Nice to see you offering to pressure test, check timing etc. And the leather carry case is awesome! Good Job!

Have you read the thread?? Andrew, Josh, Angus, and King.

This is how watches should be reviewed!

Just thought I would throw this into the mix......... Oh how the tables have indeed turned....... Now, Neither do YOU!! Neither do we, I wholeheartedly agree hence you will feel our wrath. So that would be you then???......Or not! Agreed, so please start... Oh God I hope so... Rubbish, your watches are made and shipped from china, and you don't live in China, your wife does but you don't visit that often Oh really, I beg to differ, Photoshop is good but not THAT good, can anyone say Honpo's pics!! More Verbal Diatribe! Oh we do josh, We DO!!! Thanks, much appreciated, but who protects us from you??? These quotes are directly taken from a thread at RWI, which can be found HERE, I amn't Lying this is GOSPEL, he said it, go and see for yourself. Josh orers watches which are made and shipped from China by a third party, I have it on good authority from MORE THAN ONE dealer, and in fact from one of the Cartel, that he DOES NOT collect every watch and send them personally, it is another party in ANOTHER country from Josh who does this work. SO MORE LIES, FOLLOWED BY MORE LIES!!!!!

Not right now, for now we aren't seeing the detriment in pricing, we will in the future should this continue however.

I feel like a parrot. Prices are NOT THE ISSUE!! The issues are that they are lying and forming a cartel to try and push out the smaller dealers. If they succeed then: We will lose all input as to what developments there are Lose the quality of pieces built Lose the quality of service we have come to expect Have no recompence at that point, we will be stuck buying from them and them alone CONSEQUENTIALLY, there will be a price rise as we have no other choice, BUT that is merely consequential, we are more interested in trying to ensure that we continue to have input and are able to get the quality and service that open market allows for. The other major issue is that these TRUSTED dealers are outright lying to our face, and selling horsehit movements as high class ones, we CANNOT accept lies or deception, as...... IT IS WHAT THIS COMMUNITY WAS BUILT TO PROTECT AGAINST!!!!!

It was a joke nixon.

Ok so you called for it so here it is, vote what you think. If you have other suggestions hit other, and then list that opinion in the thread. Please DO NOT post inane spurious crap in the thread, please just stick to voting, and if you say other, your alternative. This is not the thread for lots of discussion, I think that thread is well established.

How about we suspend the offending dealers, thus removing their right to trade on the board, and remove links to their sites? This can be done indefinately until the issues are addressed and rectified, to THE COMMUNITIES satisfaction.

What we are asking at the moment is that people vote with their feet and refuse to deal with them and support some of the othr dealers, whoever you choose I'm not out to support any dealer in particular but it's time to do something. It may also be an option to remove any of their links to off site website selling reps so that new members don't get suked in. This is at least until we can come up with a long term solution. OR they change their ways and stop lying to us, as has been mentioned the B&R thing is still going on cos they haven't changed their sites to portray the fact that the movement is absolutely crap, and not an ETA or direct copy of one. The best case scenario is for us to go back to having out trusted dealers and everything be open and HONEST. If that includes these 4 then GREAT if not so be it, I would rather do with a little less choice than run the risk of being lied to. I have nothing personally against any of the 4 dealers I have dealt with 3 of them in the past without issue, but it has to be a big picture thing and not, well they are fine with me so screw everyone else mentality. If one of us gets screwed we all get screwed we are a cumminity, so lets stand as one. What we are asking at the moment is that people vote with their feet and refuse to deal with them and support some of the othr dealers, whoever you choose I'm not out to support any dealer in particular but it's time to do something. It may also be an option to remove any of their links to off site website selling reps so that new members don't get suked in. This is at least until we can come up with a long term solution. OR they change their ways and stop lying to us, as has been mentioned the B&R thing is still going on cos they haven't changed their sites to portray the fact that the movement is absolutely crap, and not an ETA or direct copy of one. The best case scenario is for us to go back to having out trusted dealers and everything be open and HONEST. If that includes these 4 then GREAT if not so be it, I would rather do with a little less choice than run the risk of being lied to. I have nothing personally against any of the 4 dealers I have dealt with 3 of them in the past without issue, but it has to be a big picture thing and not, well they are fine with me so screw everyone else mentality. If one of us gets screwed we all get screwed we are a cumminity, so lets stand as one.

Other watches have had "Misleading" representations, which we have put up with until they started using it to fraudulantly advertise what movement is in the watch. Remember the whole Sapphire Crystal saga, where they said that some watches had "Synthetic Sapphire" so translated in to truth, that means NON sapphire crystal. We accepted it at the time saying, maybe translation issue, maybe misinformation or whatever but coupled onto the B&R etc. these little thing just keep adding together. As for the cartel, yes we shouldn't complain to watchdog etc. as it is an illegal trade and therefore there are less than honest people involved, BUT the whole point of this place is to try and collect togetehr the most honest people involved to try and allow for safe and relatively trouble free trade of these goods. If we start allowing them to lie to us and control prices and who gets to deal etc. the how long before we start seeing outrageous prices, lack of diversity and lack of quality. When they control the boards, they have no obligation to quality control or honesty about new models or developments as noone is here to disprove them, we are in a good place at the moment with the choices we have available to us, and shortening this choice will only serve to drive up prices and drive down quality and service. the issue with RWI is not the fact that they have 5 star dealers, it is the fact that some of the cartel dealers are affecting policy, who do you think lobby's for the removal of dealers? when in reality the issues with these new dealers are smaller than those that we are having with the so calle "trusted" 4 reffered to here.

The problem is that thye B&R scam wasn't the first time this has happened.

We now have a situation where, 4 dealers, Are trying to control who is allowed to sell on forums by pressurng staff over some issues Are trying to corner the market by discouraging the factories from sellign to the "smaller" dealers by using the fact that they have a massive customer base, thanks to us using their site, to try anf force some things from the factory by threatening to take business elsewhee. Are buying up as much stock of popular models as possible in order to control as much of the market for that watch as possible and control the prices etc. Are controlling who can and can't have PAYPAL Are trying to push out smaller dealers to create a larger market share..... The list goes on, I have seen and heard it all, and the main thing is that the dealers in question can't really come out a say too much in fear of being further isolated.

These haven't been mistakes, they have been deliberate, sorry but its true. The Knowingly lied to customers, so it's no mistake it is deceipt, pure and simple. What are we going to do about it/ That is why this thread is here, to get answers and come to a COLLECTIVE decision. I'll put it to you that there have been numerous LIES and that we would not have accepted even half of this froma new dealer so why should we accept it from these guys?? Thats why we should vote wit our feet, and stop buying from them until they can prove to be who they were in the beginning, reliable and trustworthy dealers who cared about us, and delivering quality, not lying to protect profit margins.

Sorry, but the little white lies thread did cover it, but we kinda just accepted it and moved on..... WHY??? ....Do You Like Dealing With People Who Are Lying To You??? I Don't, and I for one wont stand for it, as this community is not about me or what I can live with, but what every new member sees, this is a forum designed to protect members from the lies and "misrepresentation", so why are we blindly accepting it? King

Price fixing is happening, we have 4 dealers trying to corner the market with coming together to form a cartel, however we can only respond to what Trusty is saying, and he attempted to deflate it by saying it doesn't exist. This simply isn't true, there are lots of the smaller dealers who are being almost cut out by the bigger players trying to monopolise the trade. We are in a period in which we have seen many new dealers on the boards etc. this is a threat to the bottom lie of the "cartel" especially if they outgoings they refer to are true, they need to try and protect their business they are doing this by trying to control who can deal in what and at what price. At RWI we saw a few new dealers, some of whom had issues etc. however it is the Cartel that are lobbying for their removal, not the members, they are excertong control over who ca do what by pressuring the powers at be to remove new dealers, that threaten them. Josh in paricular has been trying to throw his weight around and make sure he is having a say in what is going on, this is NOT acceptable we are meant to be impartial, and we need to regain that stance.

I would like to apologise for losing my temper and the use of profanities, HOWEVER, Andrew has avoided responding to the fact we are calling him out on his lies, and has chosen only to respond to the issues he feels he can defend, layout, time, expense etc. When these have never been called into question, it is your integrity as a dealer and moreover a human being that has been called out. We have all trusted you and Josh etc. for a long time, and you guys have now abused that trust TOO OFTEN with all your lies, Sapphire Crystal, Light AR, Now this movement crap.... This has proven to eb the straw that broke the camels back and lets be fair you have been warned, and you have ignored us, you have been given more than enough chances to prove yourself and not not screw over the members, but one again you have failed and chosen to seek profit by deception. That is your perogative, however you must live with the consequences. I would also like to state that my hat is off to trusty for having the stones to reply here, as he is taking the brunt of the stick, when in reality there are another 3 dealers who deserve to be getting it just as much as him, however he is the only one who has had the balls to reply, just not about the actual issue at hand. Lying.

This is the key point there is all sorts of evidence which corroberates the fact that they KNOWINGLY mislead and lied to the members regarding this watch.

You are missing the point. I am not saying you make lots of money, I am not decrying the effort you put in to bring this watch to the members. I commend you for your efforts what we are [censored] off about is the fact that you lied about the description of the watch. You cannot deny the fact you lied, we have ironclad evidence to the contrary. You said "ETA 2892" and "Asian ETA 2892" in the description, which is COMPLETELY false, and then you have gone off at a tangent in your replies. i dont care how much money you make I understand the effort you put in but you CANNOT expect to get away with completely misrepresenting a movement in order to increase sales. So as has been said before you are either lying KNOWINGLY, or are COMPLETELY ignorant about movements. AND/OR are dropshipping the final watches. Lest us not forget the fact that you are also controlling the watches that the dealers on here have acces to, as I have spoken to more than one dealer who is having issues sourcing specific watche sbecause you and your 3 friends have tried to buy up all of the stock to make sure noone else has access to them so you can drive up prices and control the release of these watches.

To be honest I don't give a [censored], how you have to operate, that is your choice to be a dealer and you have to take the stigma that comes with it. All we are asking is that if you put on your website that you have an ETA or ETA clone that it is indeed that, and not some cheap piece of [censored] movement that doesn't even vaguely resemble an ETA. If you decided that it was more prudent to use a non swiss movement NOONE would have had an issue, but the fact that you lied has [censored] everyone right off by misrepresenting what you were selling instead of just telling the truth.