namor

No short cuts, and no way to do it without removing the movement. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, just have a local hole-in-the-wall watch shop move it a few mm for you.

Absolutely right, there's never a shortcut - either you do it the right way, or you better don't touch it at all...

But even Watchsmiths are aware of removing these cyclopses because there's always a risk of breaking the crystal/cyclops - you have to ask first if they work on reps, and then you can ask if they are able and willing to do this mod.

Personally I can say that I removed and reglued at least a dozen cyclopses (because they are almost never 100%) and I always took my time to do this and succeeded everytime. Never broke any (but burnt my fingers a little... ).

Congrats, well done !

I am wondering since I first saw the 036 why they can make the crown nice and fat - and on most other PAMs they're just slim and bad...

I had one - it was genuine ETA 2892-A2 with a nice engraved Rotor.

No, I didn't do a review - cause it's just the same like the others...

I like Silix too - but found out that their cheaper price sometimes results in a

slightly increased number of, well, small issues. (Which they work out !)

But overall you need a little more patience and have to work on your watches

for yourself to not increase the price.

For example: I received a nice Day-Date from them, but the Datewheels were

both misaligned - well, they will send me new ones and I will change them.

If you can't change it yourself you'll have to pay for it to be done or pay for

shipping back and take again the risk of customs when they ship you out a new one...

Again, everyone here has to inform himself and make his decisions based on facts.

For a discount of more than 70 bucks (I am speaking of the PO) I am ready to

work on some issues *IF* they occur...

But that's just me - another members are happy to pay more and get a flawless watch

at first attempt... (mostly)

Yes I didn't make it clear enough but I am speaking of the Josh/Andrew/Silix/Pauls out there. The ones who are a whole different game like TTK and narikaa (the ones who really do stock things in hand and or take their own photos) fall into a different situation, not what I am addressing so much.

And to be clear we are talking about buying watches here where Silix and Joshs pics do fine... it's nice that TTK has awesome photo abilities and we get the see them, but it's only tangential to the product.

If you went to a restaraunt that charged 50% more for the same food as the one down the street but said "we polish or dishes to a super high shine by hand which adds cost that we must pass on" what would you say? I would say, "well fair enough, but if you are adding to your bottom line for a service which doesn't really relate to your product (taste of food/quality of watch) then that's your own busines mistake, not one I am going to pay for." And yes I know many restaraunts charge a buttload for basically plate polishing... and I would think most of us are the kind to see through that... if not we would be shopping at goreplica where you can get overnight shipping and the convenience of COD for a meer $800 markup...

And I don't really think anyone is arguing this as one of the reasons for rising prices anyway... I mean TTK is the only one I know of who does such a spectacular job and I get the feeling he does it becuase he loves photography and has a history in it anyway... I can't believe he coudln't get the standard stock shots the other dealers do for cheap or free whatever the other dealers pay for them...

We can go back and forth about details and possibilities and point out minute differences, but the big picture remains, our dealers make a very comfortable profit margin and it's important to not blindly accept what you are told about a situation... like I said, the truth will always withstand the laugh test so no one should be offended if their argument is put to the laugh test.

Yeah - I never said to accept blindly everything they offer, that's why I buy from different Dealers...

Bought a IWC Jones from River for 79,- USD shipped (Sapphire and the "old" movement with real cnc-crafted bridges - not the stick on plates they offer now...) - that's incredible !

Got an Ultimate PO from Silix for 150,- USD instead of 220+ from the other Dealers - compared it side by side with a friends one (who bought it from another Dealer for much more) - exactly the same...

Try different browsers.

I can't log in with Firefox, but have no Problems with Opera...

While our dealers definitely need to make money for their services I do start the question the costs involved in these services...

While I was in China I was hundreds of miles away from ShenZhen... and I was dealing with guys who spend 12 hours a day in a tiny rented booth selling these things... no such luxury as on the side with a day job, these guys were paying their bills with just this and paying rent on their little booth... I found these guys have no problems taking back broken watches, doing minor repairs etc... and all at prices about what people are reporting in ShenZhen...

If these guys can get the connections to pull this off I have to wonder why it's such an expense for our dealers too... I mean these booth guys have a much lower margin, and still can get these services (replacing broken/defective items) with no trouble...

I fully understand our dealers have other expenses to deal with such as loss due to shipping and such, but when a guy in a booth charges $150 for a watch our dealers charge $300 for and will replace hands/dials/whatever doesn't work within reason it really takes some of the heat out of the argument of expenses...

And before anyone comes out wheeling that I am not there and that if I was a dealer I would know the real details, I am first to admit to that, but I don't think there is a flaw in my logic anywhere that if a guy across China paying rent in a booth in China but not in Shen Zhen, where business is pretty poor for this kind of thing (most Chinese citizens don't buy reps for thesmselves because right across the street they can get a nice dept store watch for SUPER cheap) can make a living doing this and covering breakages and such the same as our dealers then for $100+ profit per piece over these street vendors I can't really believe our dealers aren't still making a decent profit after accounting for their special added expenses.

Charging what the market will bear I think is a completely legitimate argument and I couldn't blame a person for doing so, but for the dealers comming out of China specifically I just don't see that it can be justified this way. If they really are getting such high expenses for the same service the street vendor guy gives for dirt cheap then maybe our dealers need to look into updating their connections... obviously the connections to get this done at low prices exist...

You're right - but those Dealers don't speak English THAT good, don't operate Web-Sites, don't operate several accounts to offer you easy payment services, don't ship your watch half way around the earth don't shoot photos from all angles for you, and mostly they don't have a clue of watch details and so on...

You're right, our Dealers probably DO make more profit - but they also offer more service. You can get a burger at BK - or go into a nice restaurant, your choice.

(I like BK, by the way...)

I'm fine with the prices rising - I will still buy it! but I know the rising prices are due to many factors that each dealer has to face in order to make dough. But my previous post is comparing those prices with those scam sites does not justify a price rise.

Yes, I fully agree - Scam-Sites aren't comparable.

From a pracitcal aspect, I have a upper limit to what I will pay for any watch. Paying a few hundred for a watch that sells for several thousand is a good deal as long as it functions and does not fall apart but I have a limit for my disposable income and this hobby. Drop shipping does not insure this and hand inspected and then shipped does to most extents because it allows for the removal of those units that fall far short of practical quality. So, if I want to increase my odds to get a trouble free watch as the prices raise (and I do), because the hassle of getting a lemon becomes prohibitively expensive and because I become less tolerant of imperfections and manufacturing defects, this steers me toward those dealers that handle and inspect the watches rather than drop shipping. Also, I expect to pay more for a watch with complications but standard watches, I would think, should not go up nearly as much. All of the above is from the perspective of a purchaser and collector that would like to buy more than just one watch.

From the side of the dealer, there is no doubt the troubles these guys see and have to put up with. The type of crap that Neil recently described is simply not worth the effort. Add the price that has to be built into the watch for replacements (for what ever reason) and the seller needs volume to make it all work. If the prices continue upward, the great dealers that do drop ship are going to loose business so the raising of prices, while in part is market driven, will be self defeating and ultimately seek a level that will be self adjusting, just like any supply and demand market.

So, the one thing that can make all of this work better (for the dealer and the buyer) is to decrease the quality problems we see and I am not talking about the nit-picking details described in a 1 to 1 comparison but rather dials, bracelets, bezels, and movements all working well and functioning as they should. I have seen the power of group deals where the dealer, the manufacturer and the buyers are all tuned in to creating a common goal. The dealers act as the go between, the dealers and prospective buyers are examining the proofs and the manufactureres are trying to get it right. That is not such a bad scenario so the system can work with some effort. I think that quality can be had but we have to continue to demand it at all levels, not just the buyers but the dealers too. Better quality works for everyone and will reduce the needs for price increases.

That leaves the losses by customs and the mail systems. There is no recourse for these losses. When they are gone they're gone and the dealers have to build this into their business or they will go out of business.

Back to my notice of price increases. Will I pay, on the average, 75 USD more for rep watches. Yes, but not nearly as many as I used too and certainly not on the first run and, you know, the used market is looking better and better. If a lot of prospective buyers think this way too, this hurts the dealers and the manufacturers - provides negative pressure on the market and can drive the prices to stabilize or even drop back a notch. Also, to a great extent, this is an impulse buy market. Anything that deters us from making that quick impulse buy will most likley kill the sale. Just ask any salesman, if they see his mark leave the showroom - Elvis has left the building. So, price will most certainly effect significantly this business as in any other.

Just my two cents.

Usil

Yeah - everyone has to decide for himself and should think about it. I don't do any impulse buys and never did - I don't buy a watch just to "complete a row" when I don't like it really. I love Chronos - but don't own one at this moment, because I don't want to have trouble with the asian 7750 - and the swiss ones are either to pricey or I don't like them (like some Breitlings for example). Also I need watches which are at least basic waterproof (for simple swimming) - therefore I don't own watches which are dangerous for that (for example a seadweller with it's He-Valve).

There are no Show-watches in my box - every piece gets it's wristtime and has it's purpose, but that's just my way of collecting...

I agree - we get a very good service from our Dealers here ! You have to have this in mind when buying, you always

pay for the service too !

When I look at the watches generally, without talking about specific brands or models, I am really convinced that I get

more for my money than anywhere else.

You can't get watches with Sapphire, S/S cases, Titanium Cases, ETA-Movements, good S/S-Bracelets, Buckles, Deployants,

Swan-Neck movements, Super-Lumi Dials and Hands, A/R Coating on the crystals and many more features for these prices

anywhere else - and please don't quote me some ugly copied No-Name watches in eBay now...

But you get even more ! You get parts for your projects, you get something to work on, you get watches which you really like

but are not willing to pay several thousands for it - and you get an international platform here to learn new people who

share the same hobby and you can build realtionships with.

If you don't like wearing a replica - paint the dial of an PAM black (just an example) and you still have an outstanding, reliable

watch for a fraction of the money you would pay anywhere else...

A genuine buckle (just a freakin' buckle !!!) from Panerai costs the same like a whole complete PAM here !!! Just think about !!!

What do we have to pay for it ? A fair price - and if you want to increase the quality, your time to mod/tweak it.

It's everyones own decision - I made it for me and I'm really happy here and enjoy every little piece, even if there are

flaws and sometimes a little trouble (which our dealers always try to minimize/sort out !)

Don't get me wrong - of course it would be better for us if the prices remain low, without raising - but we're still in a very good price

range...

Have you tried a different browser ?

I can't log in to RWI with Firefox - but works well with Opera...

Just a quick question:

are there any Hands which (fortunately) will fit straight on like

from a Fiddy perhaps - or do they have to be made individually ?

guys, ok, i will try to explain this one more time for those of you who keep referencing the tracking #.

IT IS NOT THE TRACKING #

IT IS THE 4 DIGIT VALIDATION CODE

i type it in and it tells me it is the wrong #. Anyway, i will just watch my mail.

Thom

Thom,

we are joking a little bit (but I'm sure everyone here knows the feeling when waiting for a new watch...).

You just have 2 choices: 1.) mail your dealer and validate your 4 digit code (perhaps there's a typo ?)

2.) Try other Websites who are involved in the transport (like USPS) - like stated above.

Otherwise you just have to wait patiently like we all do when Tracking doesn't work properly (which is very common)...

I'd buy a rep of the alarm... as it is, $2000 for a quartz alarm clock? no way.

I'd gladly pay $100 for a rep though.

Ah, yes - nice Idea indeed ! I would buy a rep of it too - should be not

too hard to produce for the factories.

And I really would not be picky about flaws on this one... (as long as it is

overall good quality !)

There definately IS a trick:

Sometimes the goods are ready delivered in your hands and the Tracking No. is still not in their system...

I suppose this has not much to do with the different cases (0581 / 0117)

but if the crystal is mineral or sapphire...

My story:

I have a 217 with mineral-crystal, it got scratched minimal and because

I read about the problems I decided to not wear the watch and observe

the damage.

The scratch really grew itself and got deeper - in a period about 3-4 days,

and then it shattered - all this happened with no influence from outside !

The watch was all the time on my desk and was not touched and it was

in a constant temperature...

As far as I know all of them are engraved - otherwise I thought it would be a

good starting point for self-building an individual watch with a clean case.

@craytonic:

Just curious: what was the second reason ?

You guys are getting crazy...

Go look around - the gen Inge actually existed with the short hands. I have my datefont adjsuted to genuine, so mine is perfect - no one knows about the AR.

Oliver, you're absolutely right !

Most people have not in mind that there are heavy variations in the genuines sometimes !

For example Rollies: I have seen personally and in watch-catalogues too many which have slightly different fonts, font-spacing on the dials and even cyclopses which differ from 1x to 2,5x magnification...

Just a little detail to add: the catalogues which I am speaking of are the japanese Rollie collectors books - so no AD-Catalogue where pictures are altered/photoshopped...

Don't get me wrong please - I like a 2,5X cyclops too, beautyfully filled with the date, but for example the rehaut is more important to look at because this detail differs not !

Generally it is a nice calming sound which I enjoy - but sometimes it can be so exciting

that I stand up again and start cleaning, polishing, repairing, modding...

Hehehe, just kidding...

hypothetically, if someone were to charge $45 to blow dust off the dial of every watch they opened they could probably buy a villa really quick. Speaking hypothetically, that is. One could probably get good money from all sorts of hypothetically unsound business practices like hypothetically holding my watch for 2-3 months, hypothetically not returning calls or emails, and then hypothetically charging me $25 "processing fee" to get the watch and money back. Hypothetically speaking, that is.

As for dealers, I have no problem with them running a successful business. I do hate that some of the prices have been rising and that will lead me to purchase less watches - but I am sure they understand the economics of that.

...The case and caseback are missing some engraving. Between the lugs (well sort of lugs) the case should have Stainless Steel engraved and the caseback is missing the correct model numbers...

...so really no 1:1 - I would have been surprised !

I don't believe that there's really a 1:1 Rep out there. There are always some little differences (and I don't mean this in a negative way !) - that's just the way it is...

All of our trusted Dealers honestly keep saying "a Rep is a Rep !"...

Yes, many parts are interchangeable, some Reps even take genuine Parts - but 1:1

would mean an exact copy - these just don't exist.

Why these 1:1 copies are never been done ? Well, that's another point which we discussed many times with different results...

I have a Dubois Dépraz 2020 movement - would this be of use for your Project ?

If not - any Ideas of what to build with it ?

As in any business, the sale price of an item is directly related to the wholesale price. Wholesale price plus profit margin equals retail price. If you can make 30% to 50% on an item you are doing very well. For example, if you buy 5 watches at $100 each wholesale, you should sell them for no more than $150.

If you are selling a used item in good condition you should discount it at least 20 to 25% from what you paid.

You don't get me right...

I know very well how the regular pricebuilding works - but thats not always the case...

For example: If one has a Omega SMP from the legendary batch in good or even new condition ?

These pieces are unique meanwhile - why should one discount them ? That would be not very clever...