namor

Good Lord! Have you actually read the posts on this thread? Most of us have tried to get a response from Joe, by E-mail and by phone, and we have all been unsuccessful. Except for the divergences into whether Joe does good mod work or whether mod work is worth doing, that's what this thread is about. If Joe wanted to respond he would already have done so. P only wonder if there isn't someone who knows Joe personally and could give us a more informed idea of what is going on?

Ehm, he already posted here...

@Namor.

You have a much too "holier than thou" attitude. you have to share some blame in this. you chose to have a watch sent from king to Joe for you, and then expect Joe to know exactly what to do, what you would do? while I agree those seem to be glaring flaws in the watch...it was your choice to take a short cut, so you need to accept partial blame for that.

I didn't chose a short-cut Nebakanezzar, this was a regular option Joe offered. I never said Joe crooked the cyclops (just to take an example) - it sure was crooked including the bad bracelet.

Only thing that would make sense in this case is to exchange that bad watch with king and write me a little mail that the whole watch will be delayed 2-3 weeks cause king delivered a less nice watch with serious issues.

That easy. It was wrong to start a whole modding package on such a watch.

But that is not the problem of the customer ! If I get a watch from a dealer and the send it to Joe he is not responsible for any existing issues with that watch.

But if he regularly offers in his pricelist to get the watch for you and mod it directly and THEN send it out to you he IS responsible for that. He even charged 20,- USD more than kings regular price.

He explained me this additional fee and that was ok for me. I prevented trouble to have the watch firstly sent to me, than to Joe and then back to me.

Again, you're trying to pull the topic in a direction I never wrote about.

I do not want ANYTHING back from you, I didn't complain about the price or anything like that you just try to turn the whole thing into another light.

This whole Thread is just about my experience with you. If you are so professional like you always tell you have to accept this.

...if u critiqued a genuine this bad rolex would stop making watches , lmao...

Ok, this I better do NOT comment.

This whole thread is [censored]! Namor, if you had a problem you should have sent the watch back or kept it and bit the bullet. You wanted palp to fix it? At RBJ's cost? Your unbelievable. YOU BOUGHT A REPLICA! Your damn replica doesn't come with a warranty and may not be the best quality, oh well, what do you expect for a replica. RBJ operates in the amazing country called the United States of America, we are a capitalist society, he can charge whatever prices he chooses and you can choose whether or not you are willing to pay that much. I don't have my watches modded because it is overpriced, that is just how I feel. I CHOOSE not to have them modded. You thought if you spent $600 dollars on a replica it would be perfect, not the case dude. If you wanted guranteed waterproof, warranty, no customs worries, 100% accuracy buy the genuine you retard! You are pathetic and have no right posting this thread. I aggree your watch is shitty, but you took a gamble and lost MOVE ON, GET OVER IT! Take your shitty watch and shove it, next time don't be so stupid!

What kind of stuff did you take ? What's wrong with you ? All of that BS you wrote is answered way ago - additionally I never chose such a language as you did. So simply do NOT read this thread.

It' really not necessary to pull the niveau down here like you do.

Aah, well now you sound a little different. Seems like we can talk now...

Did you read the whole thread Joe ? If so, where did you see that I want ANYTHING back ?

Where did you read that I complained about your 600,-$ bill ?

Nowhere.

I never wrote something like that.

We talked about the price and it was ok - what was delivered was NOT ok. Simple as that.

It's not the point whether there are new versions or not. I didn't ever mention something like that, meanwhile I own other watches including other Subs as well.

Don't turn the topic elsewhere. It's all about paying a large bill and receiving bad work. There was so much wrong with that watch - you had to be really blind to send it to me.

I also didn't want to have a watch like the real thing - quit this newbie-fault talking.

My facts are clear: it was NOT the case that I complaint about the price or that my expectations weren't met.

It's about paying a large sum and receiving crappy work.

...but going around bad mouthing people like you did in this last post, you lose credability. dont throw [censored], just facts, and be willing to come up with a mutualy benefitial solution.

Seriously: are you kidding me ? Where do I'm going around badmouthing people ? Joes whole post was a big flamearound without any explanations - I just commented this. I didn't use any bad language like he did nor I told him to take a "mental pill" because he is expressing his thoughts like he said to me.

???

I'm sure you got something wrong here...

Joe, thank you for your posting !

You couldn't have done it better - still so many unanswered questions - still no logic in your working.

No explanations for the members waiting for MANY MONTHS for their watches while others are made meanwhile.

I'm really sorry for your health issues - but even that I'm not believing anymore...

Just flaming around - namor is bad - ziggy is bad - palpatine is bad.

You are doing so much more than palpatine or ziggy or any other watchman ! Oh please friends ! Don't compare apples to oranges ! Joe is doing so much more to the watches !

Come on man, the hype is over. The watches are getting better. Members are much better informed.

Nobody believes you this kind of cheap marketing gags !!!

You're talking about small issues with the watch - even members who defended you stated that this watch is JUST POOR !

You say I said that the bracelet has a nick on the outside - but you just saw it in the inside.

Don't you see on the pictures that one is on the outside and another is on the inside ?

These are the same pictures I sent you.

You say I didn't want you to correct the cyclops - that's true !

But just because YOU ordered the watch for me directly to you !

I never saw it before - how should I know ?

But receiving a watch with that bad cyclops and bracelet you just had to return it to king - that easy.

But you're telling you didn't saw the cyclops issue, you didn't saw the bad bracelet, you didn't saw the scratch at the crown.

WHERE WERE YOUR EYES ? PEOPLE ARE PAYING YOU FOR PERFECTING THESE REPS !!!

So again thank you - for all that snake stuff, mental pills, chaos theory, no explanations, flaming senseless around, making others work look bad and all that other stuff.

People saw how you react. I showed pictures, I argued, I debated here with other members pros and cons.

What did you ? Perfect reaction - this behaviour you showed here is like a puzzle piece perfectly fitting into the rest...

@Nebakanezzar:

Here you'll find all the answers to your Question:

Addition:

After receiving the watch and seeing the flaws I asked Joe for a partial refund (don't stated an amount in my mail) - declined.

He just said repeatedly that I should send him the watch back, knowing well I won't.

I couldn't trust him anymore - I had spent more than 600,- USD, I should spent again some money to ship to him, I should have the customs risk - and loose the watch outta my hands not knowing what he would offer me to make it right ???

That's ridiculous.

So I offered to send the watch to palpatine and they could make an agreement each other, you know from pro to pro. This he accepted, but palpatine never saw any parts or a cent from him.

Palpatine will remember this sad story well I'm sure.

Till then the watch is sitting here - I took the bezel insert to another watch temporarily till my ordered new one arrives and I'm waiting for a new glass.

The faulty bracelet was replaced by me too.

I also polished out the scratch at the crown and will overwork the CGs after having a new crystal installed.

I see the point that he had his costs - around 180,- USD for the watch and around 25,- USD for the insert.

Thats more than 400,- USD he charged for workmanship - and this is an budget of more than 400,- USD you can think about refunding to a customer if you did bad work.

If you're just thinking about how many watches he is doing - there is no problem to make one faulty, BUT THEN MAKE IT GOOD FOR YOUR CUSTOMER AGAIN !

Even if Joe had done every mod he said he would have and done them perfectly I don't think it would have turned that watch into a $600 item.

You are absolutely right ! The watch would definetely NOT turn into a 600,- $ item.

But I wouldn't complain about this. If all the work had been done by Joe, I would own not a perfect but a very nice Submariner. Later then I would have found out that it was not necessary to spent that amount of money for that watch - but would take it as a lesson.

Like buying a rep from Dealer "1" and reading 3 days later an offer by Dealer "2" for the exact same watch but 400,- $ less.

Come on guys, nobody would write his Dealer a mail wanting the 400,- $ refunded. This happens all day in life.

But another point is spending 600,- $ for a Submariner and seeing this awful piece. And with a few logical thoughts realizing that some of the work isn't even done - BUT WELL AND EXPENSIVELY PAID FOR (I'm talking here especially about the water-testing).

Thank you all for your input, I'm really glad that we have a respectful communication here !!!

Over 3000 views and 135 replies - and we all managed to argue and not to senseless shout to each other.

Please let's keep it so.

@HighDef

yes, I agree partially to your thoughts. @all: Please do not get my example wrong !

I agree with HighDef - I don't really think his only intention is to scam people.

But he seems to be very thirsty for our wallets. You realize that reading his price list and looking at the fact he accepted watches even when having work for months...

Facts are Facts. My watch is screwed, my money is away.

Many of your watches aren't back on your wrist since months.

Telling nothing about his intentions - this naked facts are scam.

Again some points from me:

As you see I am here. I started this Thread yesterday and stood online till early morning today.

I am tired as hell and even from work I responded. Now back home I'm here again.

This is because I KNOW that I chose a hard title and feel responsible for this.

Because of this I answered all your questions, added more details, argued and communicated with you all.

Some things to clear up:

- I never complained about the price. He told me the price and I agreed. The problem is that I didn't receive the value for my money which I paid for !

STOP THIS SCAM ! Some of you think I do exagerate this ?

What is Scam ? What is a Scammer ?

Why is bestswiss.com a scam-site ? Why are the people working there scammers ?

Easy: it's not the point that they rip you off with nothing in your hands !

The point is you do not get that watch you did pay for ! You pay for sapphire-crystal and swiss movement - and receive a cheap asian version.

Additionally you get no service - no cash back - no refund - no other watch. And sometimes you can wait for weeks or months till you receive anything.

ALL THAT is happening here !!!

Come on guys, just read the recent postings ! There are more and more people coming out with issues.

You won't believe how wide this trouble is spreading ! There are many, many members here with issues !

Possible reasons why they not come out:

1) They fear being grilled here.

Me not more - as I stated before I am here, I made a clear Thread, I have pictures, I some very reputable members are involved meanwhile telling about issues too.

I have all emails, I have the watch, I have solid arguments and do debate with you with respect !

2) Some people working on watches cannot tell the truth - cause it would look like they are just hunting for Joes customers.

3) Some members told and told you all again - and get grilled for that. Now they are really fed up.

4) Some of you have your watches sitting at Joe for months now - you are afraid to never see them back again if you mess with him agreeing to my Thread.

...? Perhaps many more points - these are just a few which came into my mind now.

Believe me. Not all of you has told everything you know. And some of you still did not decide to come out with your issues.

This is what I know, from PMs, from eMails, phone calls and so on.

I DEFINETALY won't come out with names here - everyone of you have to decide for your own !

@Craytonic:

exactly that's the point I was trying to tell !

Some of you are riding the wrong horse.

To clear up some points:

@Hari Seldon:

Yes palpatine HAD received the watch from me and mailed with Joe - then he waited, but nothing happened.

- it's not about the question whether mods are necessary or not, thats completely a theme of it's own. Nobody of us is able to decide this generally - it's a decision everyone has to do on it's own.

- I'm not complaining about the price - but if I pay this amount I want to get the work done. Yes it IS a large amount, but I decided to pay it and was OK with that. But receiving a watch in this condition messed it all up.

Nowadays I'm with you all - I wouldn't spend that money again for many reasons. It's too much. Either I can do the work myself or I simply let my watches as they are because it doesn't make enough sense to modify them.

But as I stated before - this is a story of what happened to me last summer. It's not about judging whether it is stupid to spend money for mods or not...

1. Joe has come on the boards several times recently to apologize, say that he is ill and he will get back to work as soon as he can. Most guys have to have something falling off to admit they are sick, so it's quite possible that Joe is more ill than he's let on. For you young guys in the audience - it's something to look forward to.

You seem to not have read carefully - this is not my issue, but from many others. And in the meanwhile he did many other watches for others and is mod at RWI. If he is really ill he couldn't do anything. And if he can do just a few because he is not well - then he has to do the ones waiting for months at first !!!

2. I have a real problem with Namor's titling of his original post "This SCAM has to be stopped - NOW !!!" and then the first sentence, "or let more people get into trouble and being scammed." Even if everything that Namor said is correct, referring to someone like Joe as a scammer is way off line. At worst you didn't get the quality of mods you were hoping for.

I'm sorry - if you're having a "real problem" with this titling either don't read it or I say it again, read it again more carefully. There are many arguments why I choose my words.

3. In reading the original post, Namor says that Joe "just said "send it back, I'll see". Knowing well that I'm extremely aware about customs (I paid him extra money for secure shipping firstly to someone else in EU - than to me).

If i interpret this correct, Joe told Namor to send the watch back and Namor didn't want to because of customs issues. So, if Joe said he'd look at the watch and rework it, how is that a scam? Anyone, in any field who does not perform service to your satisfaction is gonna ask you to bring it back and they'll fix it. They are unlikely to refund money. As to the potential customs issues, this is one of the problems inherent in dealing with illegal goods.

Again, please read my posts on page 4 - there I explain more detailed why I didn't sent back the watch.

Also I wrote that Joe AGREED to another solution: sending the watch to palpatine. But palpatine never saw any money or parts...

4. Like Ziggy has said on several occassions, there's a real problem with someone buying an inexpensive Chinese rep and then paying triple the price to have it modded. Something about making a silk shirt out of a sows ear. In the Rolex rep world, unless you have an MBW or WM or DW with 1:1 cases where you can substitute gen parts, no amount of mods is going to give you a perfect sub.

Knowing that well I like many mods to have done - even if the result isn't a "perfect Sub" (which you only can get from Rol*x). It my make no sense to you - but you have to respect that point of view.

5. The waterproofing issue has been beaten to death on these boards. I don't care if someone water tested the watch or not. Once he shipped it to you and it got bounced around from the U.S. to the E.U, any water testing is irrelevant. I've got a watch repair guy who I've used for years on gen watches who tells me constantly that wearing any watch in water is a crap shoot. Check the genuine boards for the number of people who have ruined genuine submariners in water.

Fully agree with you - but again I have to say: read again. I didn't want to have a diving watch - but this watch sucked even little drops of water immediately into the watch. As I said, my watchsmith measured the crystal - it was slightly too small in diameter. This is nothing that happens through travelling...

Again, I don't know Joe and haven't used his services but this thread has gone over the top. Let's rethink our views.

Dave

Yes Dave, rethink your view - here are the facts, nothing more.

I had many months to think about it - others too.

Addition:

After receiving the watch and seeing the flaws I asked Joe for a partial refund (don't stated an amount in my mail) - declined.

He just said repeatedly that I should send him the watch back, knowing well I won't.

I couldn't trust him anymore - I had spent more than 600,- USD, I should spent again some money to ship to him, I should have the customs risk - and loose the watch outta my hands not knowing what he would offer me to make it right ???

That's ridiculous.

So I offered to send the watch to palpatine and they could make an agreement each other, you know from pro to pro. This he accepted, but palpatine never saw any parts or a cent from him.

Palpatine will remember this sad story well I'm sure.

Till then the watch is sitting here - I took the bezel insert to another watch temporarily till my ordered new one arrives and I'm waiting for a new glass.

The faulty bracelet was replaced by me too.

I also polished out the scratch at the crown and will overwork the CGs after having a new crystal installed.

I see the point that he had his costs - around 180,- USD for the watch and around 25,- USD for the insert.

Thats more than 400,- USD he charged for workmanship - and this is an budget of more than 400,- USD you can think about refunding to a customer if you did bad work.

If you're just thinking about how many watches he is doing - there is no problem to make one faulty, BUT THEN MAKE IT GOOD FOR YOUR CUSTOMER AGAIN !

...Namor i don't think you would have been flamed had you come forward with your experience sooner...

johnnyboy: perhaps you are right - perhaps not. Nobody can answer this question for sure. Haven't you seen the thread at RWG1 with Ziggy ? How he was treated ?

Come on guys, that is Ziggy. He is respected Member from much earlier than I am.

Can't you understand that I was afraid nobody would have anything to do with me ? It's a bit like this nais-thing (a little joking...).

For all the people thinking I want to make a profit here: read again all my posts - I never stated anywhere that I want some money back - it's too long ago.

I just wanted to tell this to rescue others.

I don't know, but it better be good!

Couldn't agree more - nothing to add...

I am merely stating my experiences as a counterpoint.

That's absolutely legit. I understand you.

It's necessary to have different views - yours is one and mine is another point of view/experience.

I just want to clear up that there are some personal point of views and on the other side there are HARD FACTS.

Everybody agreed to the point (which is not mine) that there is NO - ABSOLUTELY NO excuse for holding someone elses watch for MONTHS.

Seeing that he is responding to others and making other peoples watches ready and yours is laying around for months is just frustrating. Also seeing this facts - there is NO room for excuses concerning his illness.

To say it again: In the same time he is making other peoples watches and he is mod on the RWI - all that is time consuming - but some people are waiting for their watches many months.

There is no logical explanation for this. And even when he comes out with a story which would make sense - I cannot trust him and believe it.

It's just like I have a garage working on cars - you brought me yours a half year ago and it's still parking around my garage with nothing made, but you hear from several neighbours that their car which they brought to me is done within 2 weeks.

In this situation, what could I tell you to make you believe that I had a reason to behave like this ?

A little comment to all that friendship thing here:

johnnyboy is writing that he met ziggy in person.

Thor wrote same thing about me.

Both are moderators and trusted and respected members here.

What are with all the people telling Joe is a friend ? Have you met him ? Did you see his work as he is doing it ?

Have you spent several hours with him talking about different things than watches ? Have you learned each other truly as friends ?

In case of the above examples this IS fact. Neither Ziggy nor me are having any benefit of this "flaming".

This, and all the other issues are just facts - thats the truth and it has to be said.

Don't call anyone "friend" if he isn't. Being nice on the phone and having done 10 watches for you is no friendship...

Believe me, all communication, all mails, all phone calls I did with Joe went perfectly - like real friends.

Till I paid and received this POS.

One more point:

of course he has received the watch with this crystal (I ordered the watch directly from him). Perhaps the bracelet was in this condition too. He told me he usually get the Submariners from Ms.King.

So why the hell do you start working on a watch with flaws like this ? If he really would had done the watertesting he would have seen even more that this watch IS faulty.

Just contact Ms.King and send this watch back to get another. ALL of our Dealers offer us this service.

And for him it would have been more than easy - buying so many quantities, I'm sure Ms.King would have sent him one without wanting the faulty back...

And now please don't tell me "perhaps he didn't see the faults..." I paid over 400,- USD to delete all possible issues and improve the watch. This cyclops jumps into your face even when you look elsewhere !

Some more facts:

Example 1:

Did you ever had a genuine Submariner in Hands ?

So why are you so happy when you receive your Sub from Joe and turn the bezel ?

Let me tell you: I had several Genuines in my hands - the CN-Case Submariners are feeling and sounding completely off !

You are just happy because it feels solid and everyone tells you Joe is the man.

Example 2:

Did you send your Watch to Joe because it leaked ? No ? You just buy the whole package including watertesting, hm ? So what do you know really about your watch ? Most of the watches are resistant enough for a shower, he has to do nothing with them.

Did you read the issues with my watch which I got from him ? It's very clear that he NEVER touched a drop of water to this watch - but i paid for watertesting !

Example 3:

Did you really see the crown-guards of a genuine ? Obviously not. You couldn't - otherwise no one of you would be so pleased.

The CGs Joe does are miles away from the real thing.

Example 4:

Did you had your watch in your hands before sending to Joe ? Or did you ordered it to be directly sent to him or should he purchase it for you ?

Hey, listen. When I buy a watch - I see it's pictures first. I like it. I search for prices and ask my prefered dealers.

When I receive it - the watch is ALWAYS MUCH MORE BEAUTIFUL than any pictures can show it.

What I want to say: When you receive the watch from Joe - and never had it in your hands before - IT'S ABSOLUTELY NORMAL to be impressed ! You've never seen that thing live before !

It's not just about the faults on my watch - it's about useless stuff, about easy work for BIG prices. It's about work which is paid - but never done. It's about a hype which is just wrong.

You are confident with your Sub ? Come on, I officially invite you to a beer and show you a genuine one. Of course a genuine is a genuine - but you will see for yourself quickly that all the things Joe is telling us "he is modelling the watch, sitting in front of a genuine..." is totally [censored].

A TW-Best Submariner for example has a completely different bezel spring-system and really sounds and feels like a genuine. The new Subs have really good CGs - right out the factory.

SHOW ME SOME WATCHES from Joe with CGs like genuine. You think CGs like genuine aren't possible ? Why not ? Here is a picture of a genuine:

I've done that work to 3 watches now - and many other members too - compare this picture with the one in my post i received from Joe.

I read many interesting posts, let me comment and add some facts:

@2005SUBMARINER

You're writing that you see no sense in spending so much money for moddings - nowadays I agree with you because I can do many things myself.

But here is an interesting point: you also say, like others too, that most reps are just fine how they are.

YES ! Absolutely correct !

Here some Rep facts:

- Most Submariners are waterresistant enough to easily withstand a shower - so you pay Joe for watertesting but he doesn't has anything to do. Mine was clearly never in water before.

After receiving it (he is always repeatedly telling you "no guarantee for watertesting results") you take a shower with your watch - the watch is fine and you think Joe greased it and changed the o-rings.

- Most inserts nowadays are fitting the bezels fine. Some of them even snap in like genuine. The time is over when you had to sand them down and do more work to make them fit. And NO these inserts are definetely NOT expensive. Joe tells something different - but these inserts are mostly the same you can get in ebay for example.

- realignement of crystal, yes makes sense. This is something that is done within 1 minute of time.

- polishing. Polishing ? Oh, come on guys ! There is nothing to say about polishing and oiling. We had 1 billion posting how-to's about that. You know it's easy. You know it takes not more than 20 minutes.

- click spring adjustement. This is something that makes sense - and it's done within 2 minutes. We have how-to's for that too.

There are just 2 things which aren't that easy: CG milling and mirror-finish polishing.

@Chronus

Yes, that's right - everybody is responsible for his wallet. But all this here in RWG ?

This is like you are in an professional Car-Forum discussing about complicated engine issues - and then taking your car to a guy who takes money for testing the pressure in your wheels...

It's not the first time Ziggy brought up misgivings. There was a lot in the old RWG which, I think, went mostly ignored by many.

Yes, I feel very bad for that and I'm really sorry !

It's true, all this had to be said earlier - now it IS said. So everybody is warned.

You're absolutely right - but when other reputable, longtime members are talking about issues too - it's not important anymore whether the poster is a newbie or not...