RWG Technical

I am all for short cuts and time savers - when the results are the same as if it was done the right way. Certainly if the results would have been the same, then it would be a great time saver, but it appears to have flaws. The cleaner I use (L&R watch cleaning solution) is quite harsh, I put a A7750 that was quite dirty in my ultrasonic machine, put the heater on, and left it for 30 minutes...when I came back, the movement was EXTREMELY clean, even some of the plating had been "cleaned" off from the gears revealing the base metal...ooops. Not taking the movement apart, I would be concened that not all the cleaner is rinsed away, and the risk of corrosion setting in between the plates and parts. I too would look forward to the response, and actually found this quite interesting to test it out. RG

I joined the original version of this board on October 14, 2004. I had a difficult time even garnering the courage to post a few items, and was even more afraid to send a PM to anyone. Since that time, I have come to meet and make many great friends. It's no different than walking into a room of strangers and trying to fit in. It took me 6+ months to feel comfortable, but what I did was try and contribute things that were in my area of interest and ability. When I joined, there was little to no discussion on watchmaking or technical matters, that area interested me, so I decided to contribute what I could, no matter the responses I got. And believe me, not all the responses were positive... To make the board successful, I think everyone needs to participate and contribute what they can...since we all share an interest in watches, it should be easy to fit in if you contribute your part. Sitting on the side lines is not going to make the board grow, or allow new members to get to know the existing members. RG

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The pictures explain what many words could not...now you know what I knew already. RG

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I'll have the end results posted in a few hours, busy doing up my retort to "The Technician" on movement servicing... RG

No - new Girl Freind , I said "bed" not "sleep"... Much better the second time around. RG

I managed to get it all together tonight, and took some various pictures. I expect to post them tomorrow. RG

Cool thanks...so it is a good thing. I tried it out tonight, threw the whole movement in the tank and washed and rinsed it off, took a lot of pictures, and will post the results tomorrow if I have time, or if it's a slow day at work. I am always open to new things, and really look forward to the explination of how the movement is oiled without disassembling it, should be interesting. I used 2 spare 2836-2's for the test. Time for bed. RG

Just for the fun of this discussion, I am going to try the test, 2 ETA 2836-2 models, one taken apart, one together as suggested, in the bath, then disassemble and compare the assembled one to the taken apart one after they are dried and oiled... Should be interesting, stay tuned. RG

I am not sure what this means...good or bad... RG

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If ever I have time to waste, I will do this to a 2836, let it dry, take it apart and show you the cleaning fluid all between the plates, pivots, gears etc... This is only my opinion based on what I see, if anyone was at the bench beside me, they could easily see that you can't do it this way, and expect good results. I'll stick to the time and tested ways, and leave the shortcuts to others. I am sure Ubi would not have appreciated his El Primero being treated this way. RG

I wonder which one of my customers would want this done to their watch? Probably no one... RG

Well it is indeed interesting, I'll say that much. As soon as you move past a ETA 28XX series, into say for example a 7750, your shortcut falls apart, since to get to the mainspring barrel you need to take most of the movement apart anyway... Mainsprings should be replaced at every service, seems as if your cutting this corner as well, mainspring barrels need special grease for the bridle on the outer edge, applying this grease requires mainspring removal which you have not done either... Things like cannon gears on a 7750 are lubricated at the factory with special oils, cleaning them will destroy this oil and the cannon pin is ruined. You can't oil all of the pivots on a 28XX series without taking the date change over gear out of it's place and most of the dial side gears, you can't oil the cannon pin on this series without taking it off and turning it upside down, you can't oil the hour wheel to cannon pin without taking it apart, you can't lubricate the clutch lever and various keyless works parts, again, without disassembly...etc, so all your oiling is the visible pivots, and nothing else...and this is acceptable? The pallet stones require special oil, you don't mention removing and oiling them. The clearances between the pivots and the jewels is extremely small, there is no way that the cleaning and rinse fluid is working it's way into these spaces, cleaning the old oil out, let alone being removed and dried and ready for fresh oil. A movement immersed into the cleaning and rinse solutions will still have both of these chemicals in them for a long time, if not forever...it's got no way to evaporate or dry off. Oiling a pivot correctly requires a dry pivot and jewel joint, so that the oil can wick into the correct location... your pivots are full of old oil and cleaning/rinse fluid. An El Primero for example does not get certain parts cleaned or oiled, using this method would ruin the movement. I could go on, but you get the point. Sounds like a good argument and shortcut, but from my perspective, I'll stick to what my late uncle, who was a master watchmaker from 1935 until his death 4 years ago, taught me, and what is accepted among reputable shops and master watchmakers around the world. Lets see you post this on TZ and see what the experts there tell you. It all sounds interesting, but not something I will do, as I pointed out already, based on your comments, it's easy to see that you or your boss are not doing a correct job if you dont' take the movement apart and lubricate them, 51 years, repeat customers, or whatever. That in itself does not make it right, there are many businesses that have been aroudn for years, and scam people every day... There are well known accepted ways to service a watch, what you describe is not an accepted way... But if it works for you and your boss, fine by me, we'll agree to disagree. Your arguments fall apart, as I pointed out all the problems above. For some reason your writing style is all too familiar...strange... Lets see you post this on TZ and see what those who know far more about watches than I ever will have to say...since my word probably doesn't hold much weight... RG

We had a falling out about a year or so ago...some harsh words were said, by me and you, and I decided to not go there again. The reason you can't pm me, is that you have been blocked. I treat everyone the same, I offer a service, do the best I can, and for whatever reason if we don't get along during our dealings, I simply move on and work with the members who I can get along with. That's just the way it goes sometimes...personalities conflict... Therefore I am very reluctant to open up doors I closed in the past, if you were in my shoes, maybe you would feel the same way...look what happened with Panerailord, I opened the door, my associate booked him in, told him to ship, and nothing... What else can I say? RG

Unfortunatly as the number of watchmakers dwindles down, this is the new wave of servicing from those who are in it for the money. It is equivalent to using one type of oil everywhere on your car, in the engine, transmission, brakes, power steering etc... It would not work on your car, and sure doesn't work on a movement. The swish and dip does not even come close to acheving what is needed to service a watch. Imagine immersing a whole El Primero movement in the solution, then into the "dip" which leaves a light film of oil over everything...yeach. It takes up to 6 different oils and greases to properly lubricate a watch, there is no way that applying a film of oil over the whole movement does it any good. As I have said before, there are no "shortcuts" and certainly not any "Tricks" when it comes to servicing a movement, or doing any job in watchmaking, tricks are for clowns... RG

Since I am home this am, I will see if a crown fits a certain case... RG

Yes I agree with that comment, it's a TRICK. Your fooling yourself if you think this is an acceptable way to service a watch, and any "watchmaker" that recomends this methode, is a hack. It's called the old "SWISH and DIP", done in many shops, by people who's goal is volume of turnaround, not quality. It's also done by so called watchmaker wannabees, because they have no skills to take a watch apart and re-assemble it. Not disassembling a movement completely while servicing it, is identical to adding a quart of oil to your car engine, and calling it an OIL Change, it's a scam and rip off. This is how I service a movement, you can keep your swish and dip, I'll stick to the real way of doing watchmaking...maybe you should find another mentor... RG

I offer these services, my signature has all the info... RG

The potential is always there, I agree, especially when it comes to reps. I have made lots of mistakes, and will make many more...as long as I learn from them, try and avoid repeating them, I'll consider it a success and a lesson. Glad to hear your in the drivers seat again, wonderful news. I may also be moving on from the regulatory side of the fence to industry again, to do some training, in EU I believe...but that is a way down the road. Who knows, maybe our paths will cross sometime... Stay well. RG

The only wobble I can remember in our dealings was a delay in me receiving parts from Europe...a situation beyond my control. Sorry, but I can't agree with that statement. I have never "screwed the pooch" on anyone, anytime. In fact, I have always gone beyond the required level of support with anyone who has delt with me. Sure I mess up just like we all do, but I always make the situation right to the satisfaction of the customer. Screwing the pooch would imply intentionally doing something wrong, or failing to correct a situation your aware of. That has never happened, and never will, everyone gets their watches sent back well before the apointed turn times, emails and PM's are answered within hours, I stand behind my work, and when things do go wrong, not once has a customer been out of pocket a dime for shipping to and from, or correcting a problem, I cover all the costs. This is how I have been, and will continue to conduct myself. I have delt with many members here, and have made many friends, I have standards and adhear to them at all times, even with the work I did for you. As for the rest of the conversations, I have no comment. RG

Thanks for the feedback. That Miyota will last a lifetime. Sorry we couldn't do anything with the other one. RG

Try it now... RG

ETA 7750 day/date wheels fit the new Asian 7750 28.8K models. RG