TeeJay

No Worries, I know it's a lot to slog through, but it's enlightening...

Hi Graman, No problem at all. Always good to have new people and new experiences to mix things up a bit. With regard the comments, have you read the comments in both 20+ page threads? Those are pretty clear about the instances of breaches of trust which have occured, as are the ones by Predfan in this particular thread. Indeed, as I've pointed out, the only instance in which my trust has been betrayed by Joshua, was when he told me something, and expected me to believe him. As other emails in Thread 2 have shown, he is not above telling lies to people he thinks are 'too new' to know any better, and will go along with them (see Sony's reposting of a manipulative email Joshua sent him) That's not to say your position is not valid, of course, but there is some pretty compelling evidence of 'less than honorable behaviour'. Again, no problem at all

Contrary to previous comment, and, thanks to an unexptected call from my watch smith, I am finishing the weekend/beginning the week with my beloved 45mm Planet Ocean

Silix is the only dealer who has a correct replica of the rubber strap for the 45mm Planet Ocean. The rubber straps shipped out on other Planet Oceans, are regular Seamaster straps, and have different shaped notch holes, different size tongue on the buckle, and only feature the words 'Omega Seamaster' on the inside, where the Planet Ocean strap features the words 'Omega Seamaster Planet Ocean'. (Also, I personally consider the PO strap to be charcoal grey rather than black, as shown on Ofrei.com, but others insist that it is actually black ) Best of luck with your purchase

I beleieve b16a2 has answered your question already. Another issue to consider, was the recent 'price confusion' over a new HBB model... As for A&J not replying to the threads, they did reply to the threads (certainly in the one started by Edge) and were given extremely short-shrift by the members, and experts such as Ziggy. The fact is, they were caught with their pants down (or rather trying to pull other people's pants down), and rather than holding their hands up, tried to justify their actions. There is no justification for lying to people, or the issues b16a2 raised... Precicely. No possible excuses/justifications for those examples, which are not isolated incidents.

Hi Graman, welcome to the forum With regards your comment about customer satisfaction, a sense of security in their business, and doing the right thing, I would as if you read every page of these threads, as there are examples where people have not been taken care of, have been refused refunds, have received a watch 'in a condition' other than it was advertized (for whatever reason that may be) and comments from former customers who, while happy with the services they personally received, could not condone the business practices which have been highlighted in the two threads shown in my signature. I only ask as the evidence shown is clear and specific, and I find it hard to understand people thinking that they are such great dealers, all the time that evidence is clear. Once again, welcome to the jungle. (we've got fun and games... )

You're getting sick of it? If that's the case, then maybe you should tell Admin to stop accepting fees from Cartel Dealers and give them their marching orders! I mean seriously, what is the 'management reasoning' behind allowing them to continue to remain? They have been proven to be liars in two threads with over twenty pages each! There are comments like those of Febus and Predfan which show that they are not prepared to do business with them because of their practices towards others, or their actions towards themselves. As pointed out numerous times, if a new dealer were to do those things, they would be banned for it. Why allow them to remain and behave as they are. The Collector Gallery has this disclaimer: Okay, if the Administor does not endorse these things, then they must view these issues with a dispassionate and unbiassed eye. By allowing dealers who have been proved to be dishonest to remain (for whatever reason) then the implication is that they do endorse them. At the very least, it looks like a case of accepting their fees, and turning a blind eye to their activities. I am sorry that I have had to put this point in the public forum, but every time I have tried to discuss the issue with Admin privately, I have received no reply, so can only feel that my concerns are being ignored. With regards the content of this specific thread, it was one addressed directly at myself and Slay so we can elaborate on the content of our signatures. I have done that, and then responded to any points directed to me on the issue. I have not entered into any petty bitching with other members, I have kept my replies (bar one comment on TV quality) on topic and purely factual. Now. With regards a Commitee. I believe Lanikai's suggesting was to have a Commitee which is independant of RWG (or indeed any other group). The moderators here are here to moderate this forum, and a fantastic job they all do of that. They are not, however, here to discuss people's individual complaints or grievances over a deal with a dealer which has gone sour, and, as pointed out to Lanikai, have no power over the dealers to enforce compliance in issues like issuing a replacement or a refund. I may be wrong in my interperetation of Lanikai's intentions, and if so, Lanikai, I apologize for that misinterperetation. So apologies for having to say this, and with the greatest of respect, but if people are starting to get sick of people (in increasing numbers, as illustrated by this thread) complaining about the behavious of the Cartel, maybe it would be a good idea to actually do something about the Cartel's behaviours, and acting upon the suggestion to add all collector names and urls to the list of the profanity filter so all this forum would be, would be somewhere for people to discuss watches, and leave any enquiries and recommendations of dealers solely in the realms of email and private messaging. As mentioned above, this is simply me responding to the thread (and the comments within) that Chronus addressed towards myself and Slay. I have said my piece, if Slaw would like to take over fielding questions, that might bring other points to the discussion. I have said all I believe I need to say, and anything further, would be repetition of those points.

I really like the idea of a commitee which would act as 'overseers' of sorts, but, there is one fatal flaw with the proposal. We have absolutely no power to force dealers (whomever they may be) to accept 'our' judgements, other than then banning them from the forum... That would be something of a bind if trying to get an issue resolved for someone... As I said to Admin a while back, it would be entirely possible to have the names and URLS for all dealers to be added to the profanity filter, so any names mentioned would wind up [censored], meaning people could only discuss dealers in private. Absolutely doable, and not even difficult to do. Which leads me onto a second issue... If we were to be commitee members, and thus impartial, how would that impact discussions (private or otherwise) where someone asks where we obtained a certain watch from? I have loads of PMs asking where I got my SMPs from... If I was to be impartial, I'd feel it could be construed as a conflict of interest to actually say where I got them from, purely because I was so happy with the service I received from the two dealers... That's not to say I'm against the idea, really, I'm not. I think it would be awesome, and potentially just what could be needed, but, there would need to be a lot of issues worked out, and, people, on all sides, would have to give deference to the decisions of the Commitee in all things, which to be honest, I can't really see happening...

I had my 2531.80 on friday and saturday, but have switched to my 2220.80 for sunday and probably monday as well

Indeed, I think that says it all really, and the other threads contain the proof of those things. I took Business Studies at school... Is that the same thing under a different name? I was always more a 'media related' student, and indeed, continue to work in media related fields

Dude, that's not 'unimpressive' (for not being as good as the new material) that's vintage

Hi V, I totally appreciate what you're saying. As 'experienced watch buyers' (I'm not saying we know everything about everything, but, we do know enough not to 'get our pants pulled down' over the price') we have enough product knowledge to make an informed choice, and gauge the risk on what we buy. For example, the Vintage Rolex I ordered from Silix a month back. I am by no means happy with the bezel which is fitted as standard on all the models, with regards to the specific model I've bought, but, I know enough that I know where I can get an accurate replacement bezel and know enough about watch maintenance to install it myself, so I was happy to take the risk buying it. I would not though, recommend it as a purchase for someone who wants a 6200, has never dismantled a watch, and has never modded a watch. My 'outing' of the Cartel is not aimed at members who know what's what, but for the n00bs who join because they want a 'f/\ke R0lex' to impress their friends, type up "Who has the best Submariner?" then contribute nothing further to the forum. These are the people who are going to think "Hmmm, lots of recommendations for A&J, I'll buy from them!" when infact, they are the people most likely (as proven with Joshua's conduct) to get sent a less than perfect product, because they are viewed as a soft target, and easy money. Those are the ones who need to see these less than positive reviews (like Predfans) before they make their decisions to buy. Those are the people who the 'squiggles in the truth' affect, and they are the ones who need most protecting from those practices. The dealer I use does that... The dealer I use does that too... Holy cr/\p, the dealer I use does that as well!!!1 Sure, I know Americans like their 'next day delivery services' and what not, but seriously, that is like taking a cr/\p and having someone wipe your ass for you... Seven days from purchase to receipt is plenty fast enough for me. Inflation of prices to compensate for fluctuations in the dollar, that's cool, but artificially inflating the prices above identical product sold by other dealers, where's the justification for that, other than claiming a profit? To give an example in your line of business, I recently had a custom-tailored replica made of the jacket Tom Cruise wore in Minority Report. The same jacket is available frmo some companies (sold as a 'sci-fi replicas') for nearly three times what my tailor charged me for making it from scratch... I've always held the belief with product that "it costs what it costs", but, I temper that with the logic that there must be reasonable justification for said cost other than just pure profit/brand name. This is the pooint being made, including by former 'happy customers'. Just because YOU don't care about their lies, don't expect OTHERS to tollerate them... This about thinking about everyone as a community, not just saying "I got good service, so, screw you guys, I'm going home..." That's the kind of attitude that only helps buyer and seller, but does nothing for the community we all belong to. All the time people are prepared to accept those lies, they [the Cartel] have no reason to change their behaviour. Probably something to do with Andrew's forum handle being 'Trusty Watch Guy', and his site being Trusty Time... Shame on anyone for taking him at his word? Shame on him for giving people the impression that they should... Sorry, but I should care about that why? It's like any job, you have quotas/requirements, and you fullfill them and do the job anyway. You certainly don't complain about those expectations to a customer to make them feel sorry for you and close a sale... If some telemarketer told you they had to meet X amount of sales a day, would you seriously care enough to buy their product, or, would you just tell them to jog on? Let's for one second assume you feel sorry for them and buy their product. How many people will they then use that line on just so they can fill their job quota plus bonusses, even when that specific sale will have no relevence on their job security? This is the thing with liars. If someone lies at all, you can't trust them to tell the truth about anything. All you can do, is trust them to act in accordance with their character and deal with them accordingly. That is an absolutely fantastic idea. I for one, would support such an idea in every way. No problem, I strive to be as objective and impersonal in my views on this issue as possible, after all, I have not personally bought anything fromA&J, but, I have been someone Joshua tried to lie to and manipulate over an extremely trivial matter, so, although I'm not too fussed about that issue, for me, it reinforced a pattern of behaviour which, for the reason I pointed out to V above, good conscience for what could happen to 'ultra n00bs' prevents me from keeping silent and leaving the issue solely to those who have bought product from them. Thanks, V. I certainly try not to resort to insulting others, even if I might throw in the odd colorfull expression or humorious jpg along the way

As far as I know, the genuine version only comes in blue. Happy to be proven wrong on that though... Something I would say, in favor of the blue Omegas, is, in low light, it looks black anyway, but, when it catches direct light, is a gorgeous blue. Way more interesting than black, which only ever appears as, well, black... Best of luck with your purchase

I never said that you were. All I was pointing out, is that there are examples of movements which, at a first glance, and certainly to the uninformed, could appear to be, or pass as genuine ETA movements, and given the nature of this interest, it is essential that things are labelled with 100% honesty for what they are. The Chis/Swinese movement is a prime example that just because it has the ETA marks, that does not always make it a genuine ETA. Same as just because the dial says Rolex, that does not always make it a genuine Rolex.

Exactly. They did nothing whatsoever to actually adress the concerns or change their behaviours, they just waited till people stopped discussing it, which personally, I find intollerable, and can't understand why Admin indeed continues to tollerate it...

Fish, My issue is pretty much solely the business practices. I do not agree with price fixing or increases, unless that increase genuinely reflects difficulties associated with production. I have no personal issue with either of the dealers in question as I have never purchassed anything from them. From what I have read, I would never want to buy anything from either of them, and am, like a few others, trying to bring this issue to the attention of people so more people are aware of it. If any new dealers were to behave as A&J have, they would be banned, yet, for some reason, known only to Admin, they are allowed to remain, where they continue to 'shoot fish in the barrell'. As V pointed out above, my interest is solely for the betterment of the forum, and the community of its members. I have no personal stakes involved whatsoever.

Yes, that's a very valid point about corporate alliances. The key difference here, is if someone is selling a specific phone, then they are actually selling the specific phone. They are not selling display 'blank' with blinking lights inside it. They are selling a specific product, as advertized. To do otherwise, would you not agree, is highly dishonest, not to mention illegal? This is my isue with A&J, as things like the B&R Fiasco revealed. They are advertising Product X to have movement A, but instead, it has movement B. How is that honest? As mentioned above, someone's dad got ripped off over a cheaper replacement, and not getting re-funded the difference. Again, how is that honest?

If people were to accept the facts which have been presented on numerous occasions, rather than folks trying to justify the dealer's actions, then I would not be so condescending... As mentioned above, I would not want to buy anything from either of them, so am missing out on absolutely nothing.

If they 'have a stake in things', no, I have no proof of that whatsoever, I am just pointing out that someone who is involved in the industry, and says "There's no Cartel" when those involved have admitted there is, comes across a nothing but a spindoctor on a damage-control exercise. Who cares how many posts the guy had. What is important, is the information presented. Second hand, it may be, but, it was still something Joshua himself wrote. The same goes from the posts Andrew made on another forum, which I re-posted. They were something he personally said. That is not me making anything up, or even quoting another person's opinion about them, but Andrew's own comment. Regardless of how you want to define their business relationship, there is no denying the opinions in the two threads linked, which prove that there were outright lies about the products they were selling. Look at the comments of those who had good service from them, yet chose to boycot them because of their business practices. Surely that is sign enough that people's confidence in them is not unshakeable. Clive, how many of those 'hundreds of scam dealers' come on forum and cosy up to people to sell their watches, then pull dishonest tactics as mentioned in these threads? Never will? Says who? You? A&J? Either way, I really couldn't care less. I said before, and I'll say again, I wouldn't want to buy anything from either of them because they have been proven to be untrustworthy. So, apart from not giving someone the opportunity to [censored] me in the ass without even having the courtessy to give me a reacharound, what exactly am I missing out on,? Oh yeah, big loss there

I agree with Corgi. It sounds like something Joshua would say.

If this gentleman is the person I suspect you to be refering to, I would not consider his opinion as unbiassed. The thread 'The Time Has Come to Say Something', linked to above, features plenty of sources, including quotes of emails and forum posts by both Andrew and Joshua. Two prime examples (literally 'from the source') being: Page 8, Post # 146 Page 14, Post #262 So. Do you still believe this gentleman who says there is no Cartel, or do you believe what you have seen with your own eyes?

Seeing this thread made me chuckle A few things. - First off, there is a Cartel. Andrew and Joshua have openly admited it on other forums. - There are not two members in the Cartel, there are four. Andrew, Angus, Joshua and King. Okay. With regards to their 'lies', and Hambone's comment above, as I said on the 'merger' thread, it does not matter if someone lies a little, or lies a lot. Anyone who lies at all is a LIAR, and therefore, cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Honorable people do not lie, period. With regards 'seeing the watch purchassed', with regards A&J, that is, frankly, [censored]. People have often commented that they received a watch different to the one advertized on the website. Sure, it might just be a case of differences from one batch to the next, but, advertising pictures should reflect that. How many people have bought the 2531.80 SMP, expected it to have the 3 O Clock marker, but for the marker to be absent? Sure, they might have been sent a replacement dial after they make a complaint, but, a decent seller would either, not send the incorrect watch in the first place, or, have a picture that accurately reflects the stock which will be sent already on display. Is a little more accuracy and honesty about the products too much to ask? Then, there's the instances of people who ordered a watch and asked for it to be waterproofed or serviced, yet the watch that arrived leaked, or, when inspected, had not been serviced, and had a dry movement. Again, that is just promissing to provide a service, taking someone's money for it, and then just not following through on the promise. Not particularly honorable by any stretch of the imagination. On Rep Geeks, Andrew made the the offer of a 'special deal' watch for the members. Sounds great on the surface, but, the watch in question was a Chopard. Not a VC Overseas, not a basic Panerai, not even a basic Submariner. Sure, it's a nice watch, but it's hardly one of the most popular ones around. What, on the surface, looked like a great offer, was likely nothing more than someone trying to shift a load of stock which was less popular than anticipated, at a 'break even' price. Other than that, if people really want to view the facts for themselves, I suggest they read, in full, the following threads: Little White Lies We're Supposed to Tollerate? The Time Has Come to Say Something The times when the Cartel dealers posted (most particuarly in the second thread), their 'arguments and defences' were utterly ripped to shreds. Add to that, the reports as above where watches have not been 'as promised', despite the additional funds taken, and I think the facts clearly speak for themselves. Most telling of all, are the comments by people who have satisfactorilly purchassed goods from A&J, but who cannot condone their business practices, and who do not buy from them, now the truth about them has been revealed.

Let's not forget the watch shown a while back where it had an ETA baseplate, but the rest of the movement was just Asian parts... Swinese, Chiss, either way, Ziggy pointed out that it wasn't 'all it claimed to be', and it was indeed interesting (from a consumer point of view) that such a movement would exist. In a way, I think there is a real similarity to 'kit cars'. Externally, they look about right, but pop the hood, and you find parts from all sorts of donor vehicles. The movement in question, wasn't, to stick with the car analogy, wasn't a Porsche engine with a few parts replaced with generic replacements, but a generic engine, with the part with the Porsche logo bolted on top. Given the Cartel's history for incorrectly labelling the movements, I think the best bet is to have the movement identified by an independant expert if that's something that really matters to you. Personally, as long as it tells the time within reasonable standards, (my 2220.80's Asian movement is rock solid at +4 secs a day) I couldn't really care what the movement is, providing of course, it is as described in the point of sale

That's something I can totally understand, although, the thing I try and bear in mind, is a flaw which you, I, or any other 'watch expert' could spot, the average person in the street wouldn't even have a clue about. I actually got round to showing my repair guy my dad's AT earlier. He said, "That's a really nice copy," (knowing full well that I only buy reps) but, was also genuinely interested when I pointed out the modifications I had made with the hands and dial, and when I pointed out that, although the black dial model should have the black datewheel, my dad would find the white datewheel easier to read, he agreed that for this specific watch (and it's intended recipient) the white datewheel was perfect. I don't think I could ever wear a total 'fantasy model', like the blue Planet Oceans, in public, although a 'less than perfect' rep, I wouldn't be so concerned about, as, I doubt anyone would actually realize. The exception to that rule, is the GMT Submariner I'm planning on building, but, the difference with that, is that I can always say "I built it myself", so although it's a fantasy model, it wouldn't be a purchassed fantasy model, if that makes any sense... [Edit to add] Don't be worried about the size of the 45mm, to be honest, I first thought it would be too big, and, trying it on in an AD, it certainly looked big compared to the other watch I had, but, when I finally got mine on the rubber strap and just put it on, the size really wasn't an issue.