TeeJay

TeeJay ...... i really think a ad hoc commitee would suit the membership well.. some parameters have to be worked out..

the consumer must try every avenue first

don't knit pick the small stuff ...tiny bit of dust on the dial..

We do not represent RWG in any way or form.... RWG's name cannot be used when addressing dealers

we are autonomous and are a member to member group

we do not recommend nor endorse any one dealer or group of dealers.... we have no opinion as a committee on who you buy from

our sole purpose is to support and help members that have run into problems with their dealers about their watches ... and the dealers have not resolved the issue after the buyer has acted in good faith

if mediation is necessary all resolutions or failures wil be noted

and the rest can be tweaked as the system grows

the buyer will be responsible for all postage and the mediation committee will not be liable for any cost incurred...

I seriously request that people with experience and time on this board give this a serious chance ... not that we need to keep anyone 'honest' but i think it will work out better than trying to destroy what we all love.... the watches

thank you ,

Lanikai

I really like the idea of a commitee which would act as 'overseers' of sorts, but, there is one fatal flaw with the proposal. We have absolutely no power to force dealers (whomever they may be) to accept 'our' judgements, other than then banning them from the forum... That would be something of a bind if trying to get an issue resolved for someone... As I said to Admin a while back, it would be entirely possible to have the names and URLS for all dealers to be added to the profanity filter, so any names mentioned would wind up [censored], meaning people could only discuss dealers in private. Absolutely doable, and not even difficult to do. Which leads me onto a second issue... If we were to be commitee members, and thus impartial, how would that impact discussions (private or otherwise) where someone asks where we obtained a certain watch from? I have loads of PMs asking where I got my SMPs from... If I was to be impartial, I'd feel it could be construed as a conflict of interest to actually say where I got them from, purely because I was so happy with the service I received from the two dealers... That's not to say I'm against the idea, really, I'm not. I think it would be awesome, and potentially just what could be needed, but, there would need to be a lot of issues worked out, and, people, on all sides, would have to give deference to the decisions of the Commitee in all things, which to be honest, I can't really see happening...

I had my 2531.80 on friday and saturday, but have switched to my 2220.80 for sunday and probably monday as well

oh my goodness.. people.. let's not forget that these threads were the result of members challenging the blatently false descriptions of a number of watch features:

• ETA movements that were not ETA movements at all
  
• Super lume that had no Super Luminova material at all
  
• 1:1 Cases that could not take gen parts
  
• Water proofing that were not water proofed.
  

Regardless of what you think of them personally or their right to partner, as consumers buying goods from locations half-way around the world, you simply must place a premium on truth in advertising principles otherwise you have nothing. This is not creative marketing, these are blatent falsehoods and they constitute unethical business practices.

Indeed, I think that says it all really, and the other threads contain the proof of those things.

My God... Am I the only one on this board who has taken Economics?

I took Business Studies at school... Is that the same thing under a different name? I was always more a 'media related' student, and indeed, continue to work in media related fields

Shamelessly and completely OT.

You know what's driving me nuts right now? I'm watching a movie on TV with the old format. Fine, looks not great on my plasma. Then it cuts to commercials and the commercials are recorded in 1080P. So the ads are stunning but the actual program is unimpressive.

I can't wait until 1080P becomes standard.

Dude, that's not 'unimpressive' (for not being as good as the new material) that's vintage

But see, this is a kind of attitude that is either seen as noble, or crankish in life.

I'm not saying you are either, TeeJay. I value your opinion, and have seen the person you are in the few months I have been on. That's not it, at all.

This whole thread, however, is about what we as individuals can tolerate from collectors, trusted or not. We make compromises with them about their fudges, their mistakes, their claims.

E.g.: If they drop-ship or not, which one collector ASSURES me he doesn't, but do I believe him? I don't know. I would like to though.

And that's it right there. I WANT to believe him because he's been an exceptional merchant to me, trusting me as a client.

The ball bounces both ways, you know.

How many times, never mentioned by people here out of embarrassment maybe because they didn't buy the tracking, did a watch we send them not arrive in their destination? The collectors ate that cost.

And you don't hear them whining about scammer-buyers, as I am sure they get ALL the time.

No, they stay silent, perhaps out of simply not having time to post anymore, or it just not looking professional to out these people on boards, whereas WE have a medium like rep forums to complain about them all the time.

Boy do we, too.

Just look at what I have said about Paul, whereas he's never once presented his side of the story (there are ALWAYS two sides of the story, as we recently rediscovered, right?).

So, there it is. I think the thread is dying a death -- famous last words! -- but the crux of the matter is that either you are comfortable dealing with increased profit-margins by businessmen, and can tolerate a few squiggles of truths now and again, so long as the collectors are reputable in general, and offer good customer service.

Doesn't mean you can't out them, and in fact, should when they are wrong, TeeJay.

But just know that it's almost a losing battle because they feed us our addictions...

You're like the Don Quixote of the rep world, my darling. It must not be pleasant to be in that position, how ever noble, but I respect your efforts and convictions nonetheless, without sharing them.

Hi V,

I totally appreciate what you're saying. As 'experienced watch buyers' (I'm not saying we know everything about everything, but, we do know enough not to 'get our pants pulled down' over the price') we have enough product knowledge to make an informed choice, and gauge the risk on what we buy. For example, the Vintage Rolex I ordered from Silix a month back. I am by no means happy with the bezel which is fitted as standard on all the models, with regards to the specific model I've bought, but, I know enough that I know where I can get an accurate replacement bezel and know enough about watch maintenance to install it myself, so I was happy to take the risk buying it. I would not though, recommend it as a purchase for someone who wants a 6200, has never dismantled a watch, and has never modded a watch. My 'outing' of the Cartel is not aimed at members who know what's what, but for the n00bs who join because they want a 'f/\ke R0lex' to impress their friends, type up "Who has the best Submariner?" then contribute nothing further to the forum. These are the people who are going to think "Hmmm, lots of recommendations for A&J, I'll buy from them!" when infact, they are the people most likely (as proven with Joshua's conduct) to get sent a less than perfect product, because they are viewed as a soft target, and easy money. Those are the ones who need to see these less than positive reviews (like Predfans) before they make their decisions to buy. Those are the people who the 'squiggles in the truth' affect, and they are the ones who need most protecting from those practices.

I'm a fellow customer of Josh and will continue buying from him...

anyway;

1. who else give fast/polite/meaningful replies to your emails?

The dealer I use does that...

2. who else accept fast/secure cc payment?

The dealer I use does that too...

3. who else ships fast?

Holy cr/\p, the dealer I use does that as well!!!1 Sure, I know Americans like their 'next day delivery services' and what not, but seriously, that is like taking a cr/\p and having someone wipe your ass for you... Seven days from purchase to receipt is plenty fast enough for me.

Prices... OK they are a little higher but I don't mind... US Dollar is at its weakest nowadays... I'm also selling products to USA (nothing about watches, I have tailorship company, we export raw and pre-worked fabrics to abroad), I have no choice to raise my prices in USD range... no option. My production cost remains same, but my income gets lower since it is USD... so I have no choice to raise my prices even that makes US dollar payers unhappy... So I don't blame any seller who is raising their prices in US dollar fund type...

Inflation of prices to compensate for fluctuations in the dollar, that's cool, but artificially inflating the prices above identical product sold by other dealers, where's the justification for that, other than claiming a profit? To give an example in your line of business, I recently had a custom-tailored replica made of the jacket Tom Cruise wore in Minority Report. The same jacket is available frmo some companies (sold as a 'sci-fi replicas') for nearly three times what my tailor charged me for making it from scratch... I've always held the belief with product that "it costs what it costs", but, I temper that with the logic that there must be reasonable justification for said cost other than just pure profit/brand name.

Lie about BR? I don't care, that's the problem of who bought those BR's without seeing the photo of the movement... I didn't... I never buy a watch without seeing the photo of the movement. even from my father...

That's the kind of attitude that only helps buyer and seller, but does nothing for the community we all belong to. All the time people are prepared to accept those lies, they [the Cartel] have no reason to change their behaviour.

I love this part of the post. It truly is the essence of the available divisions. Thank You!

Shame on those who merely trust(ed). What the hell did they think with. Where the hell did they get the idea from that these people were trustworthy? Shame I say.

Probably something to do with Andrew's forum handle being 'Trusty Watch Guy', and his site being Trusty Time... Shame on anyone for taking him at his word? Shame on him for giving people the impression that they should...

The Cartel as everyone speaks of .... with direct "ties" to the makers or if you want,..... factories .... are expected to move a certain amount of product ..

Sorry, but I should care about that why? It's like any job, you have quotas/requirements, and you fullfill them and do the job anyway. You certainly don't complain about those expectations to a customer to make them feel sorry for you and close a sale... If some telemarketer told you they had to meet X amount of sales a day, would you seriously care enough to buy their product, or, would you just tell them to jog on? Let's for one second assume you feel sorry for them and buy their product. How many people will they then use that line on just so they can fill their job quota plus bonusses, even when that specific sale will have no relevence on their job security? This is the thing with liars. If someone lies at all, you can't trust them to tell the truth about anything. All you can do, is trust them to act in accordance with their character and deal with them accordingly.

In the future .. may i suggest the members creating a fact finding team...

1. a member who is disatisfied with his or her purchase(not because of estetics), faulty movt.no lug holes etc. and has exhausted every avenue of communication with the dealer .. contact this commitee.

2. If the committee deems that the member has a legitimate grip .... this cannot be after the fact.. ie. i threw the watch away.. cause i was pi___

I sold it for XXX... and most important.. proof of purchase from the dealer in question ......

3.the committee would then contact the dealer ... the rest is self explanitory..

That is an absolutely fantastic idea. I for one, would support such an idea in every way.

TeeJay.... I commend you on your presentation of your posts .... you have presented it in an educated way .. and kept control .. thank you

No problem, I strive to be as objective and impersonal in my views on this issue as possible, after all, I have not personally bought anything fromA&J, but, I have been someone Joshua tried to lie to and manipulate over an extremely trivial matter, so, although I'm not too fussed about that issue, for me, it reinforced a pattern of behaviour which, for the reason I pointed out to V above, good conscience for what could happen to 'ultra n00bs' prevents me from keeping silent and leaving the issue solely to those who have bought product from them.

This cannot be stated enough. TeeJay is a man of passion about this topic, but didn't, that I saw or interpreted, ONCE stoop to insulting those he disagreed with.

And may I say, it is he alone that has had to defend his position, given the the title header. Sure, others are in agreement and also expressed similar opinions about LWL (to use SSsurfer's acronym). But it is TeeJay who is front and centre in this debate, and I'd say his demeanour remains the same -- on point.

Thanks, V. I certainly try not to resort to insulting others, even if I might throw in the odd colorfull expression or humorious jpg along the way

As far as I know, the genuine version only comes in blue. Happy to be proven wrong on that though... Something I would say, in favor of the blue Omegas, is, in low light, it looks black anyway, but, when it catches direct light, is a gorgeous blue. Way more interesting than black, which only ever appears as, well, black... Best of luck with your purchase

TJ I can't be the only one that got a genuine ETA movement in my Swiss's.

I never said that you were. All I was pointing out, is that there are examples of movements which, at a first glance, and certainly to the uninformed, could appear to be, or pass as genuine ETA movements, and given the nature of this interest, it is essential that things are labelled with 100% honesty for what they are. The Chis/Swinese movement is a prime example that just because it has the ETA marks, that does not always make it a genuine ETA. Same as just because the dial says Rolex, that does not always make it a genuine Rolex.

The other two threads were about as much rucus as you could cause on the internet and the dealers just kept quiet in the main and dug in, the storm blew over, back to normal, ales klar, ok lets put up the postage next then, we can ride that one out no problem!

Exactly. They did nothing whatsoever to actually adress the concerns or change their behaviours, they just waited till people stopped discussing it, which personally, I find intollerable, and can't understand why Admin indeed continues to tollerate it...

TeeJay,

First of all - respect due for having some b*lls and standing up and shouting for what you believe in ...I mean that sincerely.

I think your personal price increase caveat does not factor in the marketing phenonmenon known as "premium postitioning"

I love vodka...Grey Goose is a personal favourite but at

Teejay,

As I have said ... yes - if products are being mis-sold that is wrong and that needs to be put right.

Getting shortchanged on a refund is also wrong....and also needs to be put right.....dealers with respect and honour please take note and action.Personally - everything I have bought has been correct or exchanged without fail ...but I have never bought a B&R and have always acted as a gentleman.

I think you would have far more success if you took this offline and up with the dealer direct.

Do you know what you would accept to resolve your personal disatisfaction in this case?

Just I believe your attempts to "change the rep world" will only leave you disatisfied....:-)

Fish,

My issue is pretty much solely the business practices. I do not agree with price fixing or increases, unless that increase genuinely reflects difficulties associated with production.

I have no personal issue with either of the dealers in question as I have never purchassed anything from them. From what I have read, I would never want to buy anything from either of them, and am, like a few others, trying to bring this issue to the attention of people so more people are aware of it. If any new dealers were to behave as A&J have, they would be banned, yet, for some reason, known only to Admin, they are allowed to remain, where they continue to 'shoot fish in the barrell'. As V pointed out above, my interest is solely for the betterment of the forum, and the community of its members. I have no personal stakes involved whatsoever.

First of all....respect to Vic, Clive and some others for sound judgement and balanced opinions.

I keep seeing this thread and similar ones raising their heads more and more ....the purpose of each bit of "bitching" continues to elude me.

I work in the mobile telecoms industry and have dealt with the largest retailers , networks and manufacturers across Europe at a senior level for many years now so have a pretty good understanding of this market and how it works.

I'm not saying this to blow smoke up my own *ss, but I'm sure that if you're here because you want "stylish" watches you'll have a stylish phone .....the two are some of the most outwardly obvious statements of style nowadays- the finishing touches yet essential to the whole 21st century lifestyle etc etc...

With that said ...do we cry "cartel" "price fixing" and "destruction of the known universe" when the latest phone is released and is only available on one Network and /or only sold in one retailer.........??....I don't think so.

Take the I-Phone ....States - AT&T only - due for launch in Europe - O2 in the UK , Orange in France , T-Mobile in Germany ....and they have done a deal where Apple get 10% of operator revenues - oh and the Networks have agreed not to subsidise the handset as is the norm on EVERY other Manufacturer.

Now I think that sounds far worse for the consumer who loses all choice and pays more- but as I'm sure you have worked out by now ...

There has been no outcry because what they are doing is perfectly legal and acceptable in the world of business and making money to look after your family and people you employ........oh and shareholders of course..(maybe your pension plan if you have one)

if you have a product that you have invested time, money and effort in you protect it's premium through strategic distribution alliances

As far as I can see , this is all that is happening between the makers and the 2,3 or 4 dealers that have been mentioned in these threads ....and as far as I'm concerned ...GOOD LUCK TO THEM....they are taking all the risks , volume commitments and really delivering a quality of product and service you struggle to get frm some global brands .....you try speaking to LG in the UK ...!!

Supply and demand dictates market pricing - not the dealers .......believe it or not it's all down to us the fact that better reps are costing more.

That said , these are some of the "largest" and most "succesful" dealers on this forum and if I have read my history correctly - people like Joshua have been around for quite some time. Clive states he's met him and he's a gentleman ....I have only corresponded and purchased circa 15-20 pieces from him and WITHOUT FAIL ....satisfaction 100% every time.

Yes there have been issues on some but as I'm a gentleman and he's a gentleman we never fall out and every single little problem is resolved amicably.

I have just received my replacement Arktos 092, I sent it back beacuse although it worked perfectly and I really liked it ....after posting on this forum and some eagle eyed members spotted the cyclops was the wrong size.

We had a little debate , I know it wasn't going to be easy for Joshua , but he took the first one back and 4 weeks later I get a perfect replacement

The B&R issue does sound like it needs to be killed ...been whining on for some time now and as far as I can see it was a sh*t movement sold overpriced .........Joshua ...suggest you resolve this as a step forward if you have not already done

Any way enough of my blah....done.

FGD

Yes, that's a very valid point about corporate alliances. The key difference here, is if someone is selling a specific phone, then they are actually selling the specific phone. They are not selling display 'blank' with blinking lights inside it. They are selling a specific product, as advertized. To do otherwise, would you not agree, is highly dishonest, not to mention illegal? This is my isue with A&J, as things like the B&R Fiasco revealed. They are advertising Product X to have movement A, but instead, it has movement B. How is that honest? As mentioned above, someone's dad got ripped off over a cheaper replacement, and not getting re-funded the difference. Again, how is that honest?

well said, clive. there is a reason why josh & trusty are so popular (namely, their prompt communication and top quality after-sales service), and teejay will clearly never have the pleasure of dealing with them.

teejay's self-proclaimed aim is to inform/protect people, which i respect. however, in the end, it's up to each individual to do their own research and make educated decisions about what exactly it is they are purchasing, and what the relative benefits and/or downsides of who they purchase from. what i don't respect about teejay's manner is the condescending tone of quite a few of his posts, and the indignant way in which he regards people who choose to still support josh & trusty.

just my thoughts...

deltatahoe

btw, good to see you posting here at RWG clive

As mentioned above, I would not want to buy anything from either of them, so am missing out on absolutely nothing.

But no opinion is unbiased in the rep world. If you mean that they have a stake in continuing to tout Andrew/Joshua/King/Angus for whatever reason, such as monetary or kickbacks, then I would have to have that proven too.

If they 'have a stake in things', no, I have no proof of that whatsoever, I am just pointing out that someone who is involved in the industry, and says "There's no Cartel" when those involved have admitted there is, comes across a nothing but a spindoctor on a damage-control exercise.

That's important, but still second-hand information from a newbie with 16 posts to his name.

Who cares how many posts the guy had. What is important, is the information presented. Second hand, it may be, but, it was still something Joshua himself wrote.

The same goes from the posts Andrew made on another forum, which I re-posted. They were something he personally said. That is not me making anything up, or even quoting another person's opinion about them, but Andrew's own comment.

I don't want to be trenchant about this, but this doesn't amount to a cartel, IMHO.

It's not even sharp business practise, though it is close, I'll say that.

But until someone can prove to me that these 2/4 people have in some way closed off supplies in the whole of the rep world, so that they form an indissoluble monopoly where they have price-rigged all watch brands, then that is not what is being claimed -- a cartel.

That is a partnership. And a loose one at that.

Regardless of how you want to define their business relationship, there is no denying the opinions in the two threads linked, which prove that there were outright lies about the products they were selling. Look at the comments of those who had good service from them, yet chose to boycot them because of their business practices. Surely that is sign enough that people's confidence in them is not unshakeable.

Too funny, really. With all the hundreds of scam dealers out there, Teejay and Slayer want to attack two of the best that we have.

Clive, how many of those 'hundreds of scam dealers' come on forum and cosy up to people to sell their watches, then pull dishonest tactics as mentioned in these threads?

TeeJay? Dunno. Sees himself as a saviour, I suppose, constantly repeating other people's posts, whilst never having dealt with either Jos or Andrew. Never will, now. His loss.

Never will? Says who? You? A&J? Either way, I really couldn't care less. I said before, and I'll say again, I wouldn't want to buy anything from either of them because they have been proven to be untrustworthy. So, apart from not giving someone the opportunity to [censored] me in the ass without even having the courtessy to give me a reacharound, what exactly am I missing out on,? Oh yeah, big loss there

I agree with Corgi. It sounds like something Joshua would say.

There is a gentleman on the forum who knows the ins-and-outs of the Guangzhou rep watch business, who says it's not a cartel.

However, from what I am led to believe, Andrew was brought into the business by Joshua, and they have remained very close associates.

Might this be in line with what you call a cartel? Extremely pal-sy Associates working (for some) in cahoots with each other?

If you back up your statements with a source, or some kind of reference, people would begin to meet you half-way, TeeJay. Until then, it's speculation, not to say something else.

If this gentleman is the person I suspect you to be refering to, I would not consider his opinion as unbiassed.

The thread 'The Time Has Come to Say Something', linked to above, features plenty of sources, including quotes of emails and forum posts by both Andrew and Joshua.

Two prime examples (literally 'from the source') being:

Page 8, Post # 146

Page 14, Post #262

So. Do you still believe this gentleman who says there is no Cartel, or do you believe what you have seen with your own eyes?

Seeing this thread made me chuckle

A few things.

- First off, there is a Cartel. Andrew and Joshua have openly admited it on other forums.

- There are not two members in the Cartel, there are four. Andrew, Angus, Joshua and King.

Okay. With regards to their 'lies', and Hambone's comment above, as I said on the 'merger' thread, it does not matter if someone lies a little, or lies a lot. Anyone who lies at all is a LIAR, and therefore, cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Honorable people do not lie, period.

With regards 'seeing the watch purchassed', with regards A&J, that is, frankly, [censored]. People have often commented that they received a watch different to the one advertized on the website. Sure, it might just be a case of differences from one batch to the next, but, advertising pictures should reflect that. How many people have bought the 2531.80 SMP, expected it to have the 3 O Clock marker, but for the marker to be absent? Sure, they might have been sent a replacement dial after they make a complaint, but, a decent seller would either, not send the incorrect watch in the first place, or, have a picture that accurately reflects the stock which will be sent already on display. Is a little more accuracy and honesty about the products too much to ask?

Then, there's the instances of people who ordered a watch and asked for it to be waterproofed or serviced, yet the watch that arrived leaked, or, when inspected, had not been serviced, and had a dry movement. Again, that is just promissing to provide a service, taking someone's money for it, and then just not following through on the promise. Not particularly honorable by any stretch of the imagination.

On Rep Geeks, Andrew made the the offer of a 'special deal' watch for the members. Sounds great on the surface, but, the watch in question was a Chopard. Not a VC Overseas, not a basic Panerai, not even a basic Submariner. Sure, it's a nice watch, but it's hardly one of the most popular ones around. What, on the surface, looked like a great offer, was likely nothing more than someone trying to shift a load of stock which was less popular than anticipated, at a 'break even' price.

Other than that, if people really want to view the facts for themselves, I suggest they read, in full, the following threads:

Little White Lies We're Supposed to Tollerate?

The Time Has Come to Say Something

The times when the Cartel dealers posted (most particuarly in the second thread), their 'arguments and defences' were utterly ripped to shreds.

Add to that, the reports as above where watches have not been 'as promised', despite the additional funds taken, and I think the facts clearly speak for themselves. Most telling of all, are the comments by people who have satisfactorilly purchassed goods from A&J, but who cannot condone their business practices, and who do not buy from them, now the truth about them has been revealed.

Pug i'm going to make a thread that would explain my post. Check it out-

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=46258

Those darn cartel dealers and their foolhearted schemes to take over the world. Blast!

I'm sure somewhere along the way, people have got Asian movements instead of ETA. I've had my watchsmith inspect my ETA sub from josh and it authenticated as such. I'd advise to always err on the side of caution. Inspect what you get (or have it inspected by a watchsmith). Talk with your collector.

Let's not forget the watch shown a while back where it had an ETA baseplate, but the rest of the movement was just Asian parts... Swinese, Chiss, either way, Ziggy pointed out that it wasn't 'all it claimed to be', and it was indeed interesting (from a consumer point of view) that such a movement would exist. In a way, I think there is a real similarity to 'kit cars'. Externally, they look about right, but pop the hood, and you find parts from all sorts of donor vehicles. The movement in question, wasn't, to stick with the car analogy, wasn't a Porsche engine with a few parts replaced with generic replacements, but a generic engine, with the part with the Porsche logo bolted on top. Given the Cartel's history for incorrectly labelling the movements, I think the best bet is to have the movement identified by an independant expert if that's something that really matters to you. Personally, as long as it tells the time within reasonable standards, (my 2220.80's Asian movement is rock solid at +4 secs a day) I couldn't really care what the movement is, providing of course, it is as described in the point of sale

Well said Teejay as usual. The PO looks and feels amazing. I may indeed someday trade it off and get a 45mm. On the vanity thing, I do own several Gen timepieces including a Rolex. I don't think I could wear a rep that would get me called out. I am too OCD for that. I recently send out my 16610 sub to get heavily modded and if all goes well in the next 60 days, I'll be trading my 1603 datejust and some cash for the genuine 16610. Vanity DOES come to play though as I have traded a rep for a very close replica of my 1603. So when it is gone, I can wear the rep daydate and no one, at least at work, and friends will be the wiser. Yeah I am vain. can't help it.

That's something I can totally understand, although, the thing I try and bear in mind, is a flaw which you, I, or any other 'watch expert' could spot, the average person in the street wouldn't even have a clue about. I actually got round to showing my repair guy my dad's AT earlier. He said, "That's a really nice copy," (knowing full well that I only buy reps) but, was also genuinely interested when I pointed out the modifications I had made with the hands and dial, and when I pointed out that, although the black dial model should have the black datewheel, my dad would find the white datewheel easier to read, he agreed that for this specific watch (and it's intended recipient) the white datewheel was perfect.

I don't think I could ever wear a total 'fantasy model', like the blue Planet Oceans, in public, although a 'less than perfect' rep, I wouldn't be so concerned about, as, I doubt anyone would actually realize. The exception to that rule, is the GMT Submariner I'm planning on building, but, the difference with that, is that I can always say "I built it myself", so although it's a fantasy model, it wouldn't be a purchassed fantasy model, if that makes any sense...

[Edit to add]

Don't be worried about the size of the 45mm, to be honest, I first thought it would be too big, and, trying it on in an AD, it certainly looked big compared to the other watch I had, but, when I finally got mine on the rubber strap and just put it on, the size really wasn't an issue.

Good review TeeJay. Very informative comments. I've got the black dial version and really enjoy it. Regardless of the few flaws, it is a beautifully designed watch on it's own merits. I also have the Royal Oak (wempe version on a black strap) which is a verrry nice watch. For me, the VC is more attractive because of the stunning bracelet and dial.

To each his own.......but, as a rep, this is a stunning comparison to the real deal.

Thanks. I'm wondering if I might've prefered the black dial version, as that's really the only difference I can think of to the AP (well, in general) which I didn't dislike... That said, I think the 'sauage-shaped- hands and markers of the AP are somewhat unique, where the VCO has markers like a Planet Ocean... I'll probably never be able to give a reason why I didn't like the VCO, so probably best to stick with 'to each his own'

Well that is my problem with Tony I suppose. I bought four watches from him also. So I did not expect him to try to sell me a strap one day after delivery and the report of a minor problem.

He is just OK. And just OK prevented me from inviting him here to sell when the Dealer restrictions were revised.

Care about me and I will care about you. Otherwise I will put upon the offender a mighty rath that will last a lifetime.

His greed for a $15 strap cost him all the riches RWG would have provided.

It was first time I have ever used indifference to punish an offender.

As a counter to that point, Tony threw in a free rubber strap for my Planet Ocean, when he was unable to switch between the engraved bracelet of the Orange/pumpkin 45, and the etched bracelet of the black/white 45 I'd ordered. He'd first said he would swap the straps over, but, when they physically were not compatible, he emailed me straight back, and offered the additional strap as compensation, which I thought was a very nice gesture. Twice now, he has attempted to gain watches not normally in his listings for me. One was a VC, the other, a 'silver bezel' SMP (he normally only lists the GMT Version) When the Panerai 111 I receieved had a defective power reserve (cut out after a few hours, so something an inspection would not have revealed), I emailed to ask if I could return it, and exchange it for an Aqua Terra, and his following reply, had the return address, and a reply that the exchange was no problem. As I mentioned in my above post, yes, Tony's watches are by no means 'Super Reps', but I have never had a problem with his service or product (the problem I did have, was one he would not have known about, so I do not hold against him)

Hi All,

just noticed that the seller XXXXXX is offering the new B&R PHANTOM (Base and Chrono) with the all black/dark grey numbers and indezees!

HAve a look here: PHANTOM

His pic

Nice review, I actually found a review of VC's design interesting...after all, even though we collect reps our decisions are based asmuch on the design of the gen as the accuracyof therep.Personally, I think VC has struck a perfect balance between dress and sport making for a very versitile watch.I wish they would suplly a croc strap alongw/the bracelet to makeit even more useful as a dress watch--bracelets just don't cut it w/ a suit in DC.

Thanks, I wanted to do the review purely on it as 'a watch', rather than regards to it being genuine or replica. Although I'm not personally so keen on the VCO, I quite agree with your opinion that it is a perfect balance between dress and sports wear, and it is indeed a very versatile watch...

With regards to a croc strap, I found buying a 24mm leather strap, then cutting notches out of the end, made for a good fit in the VCO case. The one thing I would recommend, is getting a Sharpie in the color of the strap so you can color over the cut ends (which otherwise look terrible) Personal taste asside, it did look very nice on the leather strap

i just read your sig, we have ALLOT in common.

i hope you enjoy your vc, it is a stunning watch and i certainly do want one in the future. it will be 2 or 3 watches from now but i am sure there will be one in my collection before it is over.

wear it well man, its beautiful.

hk

Sorry for the delay. The VC Overseas is no longer in my posession as I just couldn't tollerate wearing it. If the Overseas is a design you like, I would suggest also having a look at the Audemars Pigeot Royal Oak. I got one a week ago for my best friend's birthday in a few months, and, although it's a little small for my personal taste, the watch is really nice to wear. Interestingly, it has the same style of case as the VCO, but, when I wore it for a day to 'field test' it, I didn't get the "getitoffgetitoffgetitoff" feeling I had everytime I put on the VCO... Might be because it had a black dial, I'm really not sure, but either way, I'd certainly suggest it for consideration

WOW!!! Everytime Josh and Andrew's name pops up there always seems to be a long debate. I know that Teejay is on a one man campaign to end the A&J cartel. Franky put, I think that Andrew and Joshua's service is exemplarary. People pay what they perceive as a good value. They might not be the cheapest, but who cares. That is why people pay different prices for the same Hi-Def TV set. I have purchased over 40 reps from them in a few short months. I couldn't be more happier. I have also negotiated some great deals as well. THEY WILL NEGOTIATE!! I have had a couple of issues with a few pieces, but they were handled with care and attention. Don't get me wrong, I have listened and monitored some of the comments made pertaining to some of the wording and services provided by A&J and I take them into consideration. I have never once felt "ripped off" buying anything from them. If the service level continues, they have my dedicated patronage. I don't think that there are any vendors as hard working as they are. Answering e-mails back to me at 3AM is unreal. Communication is excellent, and a huge selection to boot. I know that there are a lot of great dealers on these forums and no dealer has had a perfect record when it comes to service and promises. We just have to learn from mistakes and improve. Teejay, I know your intentions are good trying to protect many of the members of these forums, but there are many very satisfied customers that support A&J. If you have bad ass comments, try to keep them to yourself. We have heard them all before.

I'm not on a 'one man campaign', there are plenty of others who feel as I do about A&J. Look at the two 20+ page threads and you'll see plenty of them.

I couldn't care less how many satisfied customers A&J have, the fact of the matter, is that they are liars, and people need to be made aware of that so they can make up their own minds.

As I pointed out several times, they are not participating in this forum other than to promote themselves, which utterly undermines any kind of 'friendly relationship' people mention. Given the favoring of RepGeek banners, it is pretty clear that they have moved their attentions away from this forum, becuse people are starting to realize the truth about them, and are focussing on another forum. As I have said all along, yes, it's up to people how and where they spend their money, but at the end of the day, why choose to support businessmen who manipulate and lie to people just because you personally are unaffected by their lies? What kind of community spirit is that?

Hi,

i bought my first rep a week or so ago and i like it very much. Its a 4th gen PO from Andrew and besides a bit dodgy bracelet clasp (not a big deal really) its really nice. Im wearing it all the time and it seems to be waterproof

But lately i started reading more about dealers that sell ETA movements that are actualy asian copies, sapphire glass that isnt sapphire etc. Like i said, i like my watch but i would like to know what exactly i have.

So, can someone please tell me if 4th gen. PO from Andrew has the real ETA movement, real sapphire etc.

Hi, and welcome. Without pics of the movement, it's hard to really say what the movement is. With regards the sapphire crystal, the term used is synthetic sapphire. This does not mean that it is a fake sapphire, like pleather is fake leather, it means that the sapphire has been produced under lab conditions. A better term would be 'synthesized sapphire'. One way of testing for a sapphire crystal, is putting a droplet of water on the lens. If it spreads out, it is regular mineral glass. If it remains in a uniform shape, then chances are it is sapphire. The only problem with this is things like AR coating and the shape of the crystal can give false results. The only other real way of testing it (without non-invasive professional tools) is to try and scratch the crystal with a pin. If it doesn't scratch, it's sapphire. If it scratches, then it wasn't. But, you then wind up with a scratched crystal. Probably best to just accept the watch 'as is', and just try not to hit the crystal on anything

I am going to buy several different straps and chacne it up no and again. I love the way it looks. The vanity im me prefers Rolex's to Omega's because most people recognize a Rolex. I have 14 watches all together so I never know what I am going to be into on a particualr day.

Hee hee, vanity can be a dangerous thing... To most people, Rolex = Fake. They might recognize a Rolex more than an Omega, but chances are "Is that real?" will be soon uttered... Just doesn't happen with Omegas. I was showing someone my dad's modified Aqua Terra earlier, and pointed out how I'd customized it, and their only comment was "That's a really nice watch..." Try that with a customized Rolex, and you can gaurantee they'd've said "Is that real?" Vanity is one thing, but the flip side of that is shame, and, if you get called out for wearing a Rolex due to vanity, you'll be feeling the shame