Jimmythree

Dan71: "Not sure I understand the question." amc: "My question is...has anyone else noticed genuine 1655 watches with the markers spaced away from the reflector like mine and the two genuine examples?" The dial on my 'shortcut 1655' has the outer row of markers spaced away from the edge of the case where the vast majority of genuine and replica 1655 have the outer row of markers right up against the edge of the case. I always figured watches with the outer markers spaced away from the edge of the dial were replicas, re-dials, or some sort of 'service' dial. Maybe not since I searched for a long time and finally found a few genuine examples with the outer markers spaced away from the dial, but there is no way to determine if the dial is original to the watch. It is not important at all but like I said...I always figured markers spaced away from the case edge were not 100% original to a watch. Looks like the answer is...maybe, maybe not. J3/amc Who, Who, Who am I? - General Discussion - RWG

I am 'automatico' but I was 'jimmythree' on RWG to start with, I joined up just after TRC went south. Say what? Waaay back...a server glitch wiped 'jimmythree' out (or so I thought) and I re-registered as 'automatico'. A couple weeks ago I lost my 'automatico' PW during a trash cleanout and the email account it is registered to has gone south for the fourth or fifth time (for me anyway) and I gave up on it. Then I got a note from the admn a couple weeks ago addressed to 'jimmythree' so I applied for a new PW for 'jimmythree' using my current email address. Bam! I'm 'jimmythree' again! Since 5-16-07. j3/amc

Tell you what freddy333....Adios! You can have it. Follow someone else around with your barbs.

quote = ...I am not going to drop $1k on a fake watch much less A dial or A movement. /quote I agree 100% because a replica watch is basically worthless except for a novelty or a basic time keeper. They will never reach mainstream collector status like genuine watches because of what they are...I better take the 'worthless' part back though because Swiss Eta movements are beginning to be worth a few bucks. (I could be totally wrong of course because a few years from now, who knows what will be a collector item?) The only replicas I am familiar with that might be termed 'collectible' are the manual wind Daytonas with Poljot 3133 (Valjoux 7733 clone) movements. I have seen them called 'DW' Daytonas on forums and they look a lot like genuine watches with 19mm lugs, smaller cases etc...not like later models with Venus 175 clones in them. There may be correct size Venus clone watches around but I have not seen one. I do not waste first class genuine parts on replicas...I use new generic case tubes, used genuine crowns, new generic crystals, used dials (non collectible), bezels etc. On my DJ projects, I install used gold bezels, crowns etc, generic sapphire oem spec crystals, generic Eta/tudor hands, and gaskets. My last one has a genuine 18k fluted bezel that someone polished a flat spot in. I turned it down and made a smooth bezel out of it. I use mostly replica dials but have a qs DJ dial with one dial foot broken off and may use it in the next one. I made up a few OPD with genuine cases and dials because there used to be a lot of cases, bracelets, and dials around from genuine watches scrapped out to use the movements in replica gold cases...OPD watches were cheaper than DJs and had the same movement. Something else...no way I would try to pass a replica off as genuine to anyone. I always tell them what it is and have had more people ask to look at replicas than genuine watches after I tell them. Most people really get a kick out of them...also had a few rolexsnobs blow a fuse. No sense of humor.

Some replica DJ cases will accept genuine crystals and bezels but most will not. I have a few replica DJ cases with oem spec sapphire crystals and genuine or aftmkt gold or steel bezels fitted on them but like I said...most will not work. Measure the case neck...if it is 29.5mm, genuine parts will work. Btw...the cases I have that work with genuine parts are the infamous 'monarch polfy/gelena shitinerand' cases, some with reference and serial numbers, some without. Some cases have a groove cut in them for case clamps and some do not. You can cut case clamp slots in a case using a Dremel tool and a cutoff wheel. I use a battery powered Dremel tool to start the grooves and finish with a house current tool. Put the dial and movement in the case, line it up with 3 at the case tube, and mark the case where you want the grooves cut (one on each side). If you miss the spot a little bit you may have to file slots in the movement spacer so the clamps will reach the slots. If you have a lathe with a 3 jaw or 4 jaw chuck...you can clamp the case in the lathe and cut a case clamp groove in the case using a Dremel tool or a tool bit. I use a Dremel because I never took the time to make a tool bit for the job. 'WW' type (watchmaker) lathes with a bezel chuck will also work. tip: You can press an old bezel upside down on the watch (using an acrylic crystal) for a solid mount when cutting case clamp grooves. I use an old bezel with a slight taper cut inside it so it will start easily upside down. (acrylic and sapphire case necks are about the same size so an acrylic 135 crystal will work on a sapphire case) You can also use an acrylic crystal without a bezel and rely on the clamping force of the lathe jaws to hold the crystal on the case. Put a thick rag on the lathe bed to protect the case if it falls off. Always run the case on low speed. note: Some cases will have a step with a slightly larger od on the crystal neck down next to the case but just above the step it is 29.5mm. Be careful not to press the crystal gasket down over the step because the bezel will be too tight and sometimes ruin the gasket. What's worse is if the crystal gasket slips down over the step on one side and the bezel gets crooked and chips the crystal when you press it down. Be careful pressing the bezel down over the gasket.

Quote = "But I am definitely scratching my head over your (negative) comments about the DJ. My 1st gen Rolex was a 16013 (I still own a 16014) & it ran, flawlessly, for many years until I lost it. And that was without any servicing, which was a mistake on my part. I also had a relative who was a professional Rolex-trained watchmaker & I remember him telling me that Rolex watches were the 'best made' watch in the world. And although I am an amateur, at best, that has been my experience as well. The 3035 is probably 1 of the weakest links in Rolex's movement chain, but I have never had any problems with either of mine." /quote I went back and looked at my records...I have owned 26 watches with the 3035 and had trouble with 6 of them (in about 25 years, but I did not wear all of them)...everything from broken rotor axles and jewels to date problems. A couple had problems when I got them but most went DOA while I wore them. (6 out of 26...I always heard the number 6 was bad luck) I sold the last 7 tutone 3035 powered watches to one guy 6-7-01 (7 = good luck!) promising myself I would never own another 3035 but in a weak moment bought another one early this year just because it was cheap...and the guy owed me some $$. note: I admit to being hard on watches, I did not take it easy on one just because it was a rolex...but I have slowed down a bit since then. A friend lost an explorer II in a lake a few years ago and another lost a submariner while deep sea fishing and we still wonder where they are and what condition they are in. We figured the springbars let go. I knocked a sappire crystal, bezel, gasket and all off a modern DJ once but in the watch's defense, the crystal gasket was fried from the sun. Also knocked a crown clean off a watch including the stem and breaking the case tube. (no crown guards) Had a DJ come in a few months ago with the same problem and the guy did not know how or when it happened. He works on antique cars. Oh yeah, the crystal, bezel, and gasket fiasco...a few years ago I was riding on the back of a motorcycle when a cop got after us and we rode through a doorway at a motorcycle shop trying to hide. I had a bucket of fried chicken tucked under my left arm and when we bounced off the door frame, I stuck my hand out and smacked the watch pretty hard (and dropped the chicken). The cop was asleep in a car wash next to the chicken joint and we did a looong wheelie past the car wash and woke him up. (beat up old Kawasaki ZX11 with headers etc) He said he took off after us because we "made him look bad". I guess sleeping on duty was OK. The cop was laughing so hard there were tears in his eyes when he walked in the door. We were not laughing. We lost $10 worth of fried chicken. I found the crystal, bezel, and gasket still in one piece on the floor. I have owned as many or more watches with 1530 base movements (starting in the early 1970s) and had very little trouble other than the usual caused by neglect, wear, or botched repair jobs. Many 1530/60/70/75 etc movements are getting very ratty now because of rough handling during service, being left in the cleaning fluid too long (plating ruined) etc, etc. Some are just getting old...the 1530 came out in 1957. I have owned about 20 watches with the 3135 and only had trouble with one (besides the crystal), but I never wore a 3135 powered watch for longer than a few weeks before getting rid of it. I have a 3135 in a 16233 but have never worn the watch....if I ever do, the first thing I will do is change the crystal gasket.

quote = Overall, I think the ETA-powered reps are pretty reliable these days. Especially, if you get them serviced regularly, which is a prerequisite for any mechanical movement. Gone are the bad old days when even the best reps were powered by cheap, unreliable Asian 'mystery' movements (these bear no direct relation to the 'Mystery' DW movements) that were considered great if they kept reasonable time for 6 months before they ticked their last tock. /quote I agree with you about Eta powered watches. If you get a fresh, clean Eta movement, it will usually run without trouble for at least 5 years. Asian 'mystery movements' usually last from 2 minutes to a year or two. There are exceptions of course...like the guy I know who wore a submariner look-alike with a DG/CH 2813 for 5 years before it blew up. (the ball bearings on the winding rotor wore out and fell out of the race) ...and the Sea-Gull ST19 chronograph movement that seems to be one of the best cheapo Asian movements made. As for genuine watches... I have a 16013 DJ that I wore for a while but parked it after I made up a replica Swiss Eta 2836 DJ with 18K bezel, oem type sapphire crystal/gasket, genuine crown etc because I simply do not trust a genuine Rolex to run without breaking. (I am speaking from experience, not blowing smoke) Back when I wore a Rolex all the time, it took three... 1...one to wear 2...one spare for when the one I was wearng blew up 3...one waiting on parts Kinda like a Harley D motorcycle. Many of the current rolexophiles who brag about how 'tough' their Rolex watches are must be new to the mechanical watch game...or keep them on a watch winder. Anyone besides me ever wonder why Rolex has the biggest watch parts and repair business in the universe? Maybe it's because they break a lot. The 16013 has already had a new mainspring, balance staff, cleaning job, crown, case tube, crystal, and gaskets since I had it (four months, and it had a 2004 service date written inside the caseback)...what's next? Besides all this, the hairspring is laser welded to the collet on the 3035 and they are famous for coming loose...the fix is a new $400 balance assembly. I have little faith in the real world ruggedness and reliability of genuine Rolex watches so for a few hundred bucks, I can get the same look without all the $$ headaches and hassles.

"The old timers have had their fill, being lucky enough to buy during the so called golden age" You got that right. I started with genuine watches waaay back and found replicas when they wound up with me for repair because no one else would work on them. They might not have been as close in appearance to genuine a few short years ago as they are now but "QC" (what there was of it) was a lot better then and less delivery hassles. I am through with them now except to use for parts. Fully signed Eta clones were the last straw. I also refuse to work on DOA China made Miyota clone movements. I flatten them with a hammer. As for genuine... They might be a bit more reliable but they cost too much and most swiss watch companies will not sell parts...if they do, they are too expensive anyway. Genuine "luxury watches" are a lost cause imho, just another way to screw you out of your $$. Something else...I bet sales of genuine "luxury" watches are down in the USA because of gasoline/diesel fuel and food prices getting jacked up daily...$3.55 for regular gasoline around here, up from $3.35 a week ago. Probably $4.00 by late June. Dodge "Hemi" pickup trucks etc parked in front yards all over town with "For Sale" signs...some with "Make Offer" signs. ...while worn out 1980s four cylinder Toyota pickup trucks are priced over $4000...up from $1500 a couple years ago. I saw a nice sapphire crystal rolex air king at a pawn shop a few weeks ago priced at $1200. I read the price code...they paid $400 for it. I guess the guy needed a tank of high test. note: Around here, most of the pawn shops use HONEST BUCK for the code with numbers in place of the letters in different order from shop to shop.

quote = It just so happens that today I received my newest Rolex replica... Although this IS NOT a clone of a 3135 or any other Rolex in house movement, its the most interestingly decorated 2836-2 that I have ever had... For some reason the pic shows a slight gold color, its not gold at all. /quote That movement is exactly like the eta clone I had that the rotor fell off of. I am sure eta made movements with similar decoration. For example: http://www.mywatchmaker.net/tgpilot.htm But mine was a clone, no doubt about it. Assuming your movement is Swiss made, the rolex style rotor was made in Chna or somewhere and put on the movement. Since there are at least two companies in China making eta 2824/2836 clones (Sea-Gull and Hangzhou), maybe the clone made by Hangzhou has parts that will interchange with eta...maybe The Zigmeister had a Hangzhou, not a Sea-Gull and parts were interchangable with eta. This Sea-Gull eta clone review says that a lot of parts will not interchange: http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f...p;sk=t&sd=a ...and to make things more interesting, here is a 26 jewel eta clone: http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44383 I would really like to know more about the clones, maybe someone can find out. As for making a rolex 3135 clone...I doubt it would be very hard and they could use a flat hairspring (in place of a Breguet hs) and still look like a 3135. The rolex 3000 was just a 3035 with a flat hairspring and no date and they looked alike.

Another eta clone... http://hangzhouwatch.com/product_view.asp?id=56

"It is very easy to say that if you can not provide for a child, don't have one but this philosophy is not followed in society." Very true. Many of the world's ills are caused by overpopulation with more sure to come.

You are correct of course...a slightly different point of view. I think that if a family can not provide for kids they should not have kids...period, and that parents are ultimately responsible for their kids. I understand conditions can come up that change well laid plans though. The friends I grew up with all came up pretty rough and it has stayed with me into later life. I never had a lot of sympathy for others, plain and simple....one exception is kids.

disclaimer: I did not read the replies below, only the headline post and my comments do not take into consideration what has been said other than the headline post. I have seen many stories about 'child labor' in developing countries and they all seem to target a particular section of popular merchandise...clothing, electronics, footwear etc. I have also seen claims by legitimate brand owners that the counterfeiting of popular products...handbags, shoes, watches etc was performed by 'child labor' and the product in question was sold to raise money for terrorism or some other nefarious deed. In short, they always try to lay a guilt trip on you. I do not believe much of it. I carried newspapers when I was 13 years old. Was this 'child labor'? NO! ...but it seemed like it was (to me) on cold winter and hot summer days. I worked in a supermarket bagging groceries and mopping floors when I was 16 years old. Was this child labor? NO! ...but it seemed like it when they had a week long 'chicken sale'..."Cut up Free! Only 29 cents a pound!" Kids working in a factory sewing shirts or handbags together is a bit easier for me to believe than a kid assembling mechanical wristwatches...although I have seen some watches that looked like they were assembled by a five year old kid with ADD. A few reasons why this never did bother me very much (assuming might be true)... 1...It is not my problem...the kid's parents are to blame first and foremost. 2...This is an enforcement problem for the country where it takes place. If the kid is denied an education, mistreated, and/or forced to work...this should be stopped. no question about it. If the kid works part time under adult/family supervision, then this is probably not much of a problem. 3...I would have to see real proof that 'child labor' was used to make replica watches before it would change my mind and everyone should know that proof and truth are extremely rare commodities when dealing with foreigh countries. As far as that goes...truth and proof are extermely scarce in the USA when dealing with politicians etc! Especially during election years. 4...The majority of replica forum posters do not actually know where replicas are assembled. (I for sure do not know) Are they assembled in factories?, sweatshops?, small workshops that specialize in mechanical/quartz watch assembly?, in homes where assembly is performed by family members? (this is probably where most 'child labor' goes on imho) Maybe a 'collector' could shed some light on this subject.

quote = I am sure that The Zigmeister noted that in most cases the eta parts will fit the clone, not much of a "clone" other wise, they are proberbly made on ex ETA machinery any way, The Zigmeister what is your take on this? /quote The only thing I know about the 2836 clone made by Sea-Gull is from reading this: http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f...p;sk=t&sd=a The 2836 clone at the top of the post is like the one I had with the rotor that fell off...it had the fancy decoration etc with rolex type cutouts in the rotor. I have never had one apart to see what will interchange but the guy who wrote the TZUK article said not much will. I do not know. I also seriously doubt the clones are made on Swiss machinery as the Swiss are finally figuring out that China will sooner or later be a huge threat to the Swiss watch business. The ST19 (Venus 175 clone) may be built on Swiss machine tools but Venus sold the machinery because they no longer needed it. If they thought it would ever be a threat to "Swiss Watches", they would never have sold the machinery. Why? Because time goes by and things change... Late 1970s: Japanese quartz watches knock the Swiss watch business flat without warning. Example: The new quartz Seiko Astron was selling for $2000+/- while the average Swiss mechanical watch was around $150+/-. Early 1980s: The Swiss started making quartz watches and movements to stay alive but quartz watches were getting cheaper at the retail level every month. Mid 1980s: Rolex and a few others stick with mechanical watches while pumping out all kinds of propaganda about "Swiss Tradition", "Swiss Quality" etc in an effort to make people want obsolete Swiss mechanical watches again. Rolex had a quartz watch but it did not sell...probably because the second hand jumped just like a $15 quartz watch. Late 1980s: It's working!...brand new "obsolete" mechanical Swiss watches that went unsold for $200 in the late 1970s are selling like hot cakes for $3000 retail. 1990s: Swiss mechanical watches are making a huge comeback as collectors run auction prices higher and higher and the Swiss brands are jacking retail prices up!, up!, up! The mecnanical "Swiss Made" watch business comes back from the brink of destruction. Many "Swiss Made" watches had German, French, HK etc cases in the 1960s and 1970s so in the 1980s and 1990s many Greedy Swiss Watch Companies keep making "Swiss Made" watches with more and more non Swiss components...mostly China made cases, bracelets, dials etc to save $$ on production cost and increase profit. The Swiss set the stage for this years ago by lowering "Swiss Made" standards so they could use non Swiss cases, bracelets, dials etc and still claim the watch to be "Swiss Made". Keep in mind that with the lower "Swiss Made" standards...they can now sell a Chinese watch with a Swiss movement and still claim it is "Swiss Made". 1990s revisited: Good news! Computer design and computer driven machine tools make watches cheaper to make than ever...stick a chunk of metal in the machine and stand back! Bad news...The internet is growing by leaps and bounds and the "Swiss Made" 51% Rule (by value) plus "Swiss Assembled and Adjusted" scam comes to light world wide. ...people begin to notice "Made in China" stamped on the bracelet of their new $4000 "Swiss Watch". 2000s: Now that China is beginning to make better movements, the Swiss are finally waking up and start working on rule changes so the watch has to be 80% "Swiss" (by value = Swiss assembled and adjusted) rather than 51%. (they are also beginning to wonder if China just might be able to make complete high grade watches someday) Good news? Probably not...the Swiss will probably just use cheaper and cheaper non Swiss made cases, bracelets etc to lower the ratio to 20% in value. "Assembled in Switzerland" = stick a few screws in the movement and slap it in the case. "Adjusted in Switzerland" = make sure it runs. 2005 - 2011: Swatch decides to cut off movement kits to watch brands outside the Swatch Group and limit the supply of complete movements. Early 2008: Eta 2836 jumps from $75 to $175, Eta 2892 jumps from $125 to $225 and supplies are way down. The Chinese (Sea-Gull) have started making 2836 and 2892 "clones" and watch makers are putting them in watches. Good news? Yes!...but only if they make the movements to a high standard and stamp Sea-Gull under tha balance wheel and on the winding rotor. Bad news? Yes again!...unless you like fake "Eta" stamped movements with hair and dirt but no oil...at Eta prices. This is the problem. Finally! Why do I think Eta clones are not being made using Swiss machine tools? Because all this can not make the Swiss very happy so I doubt they sold Sea-Gull the machinery to do it with.

I had one about a year ago. I traded it and the winding rotor fell off. The guy brought it back, I dug the rotor screw out, put the rotor on and it never came back. It ran OK...gained a little. Having said that...I do not want another one because like the man said...they are hit or miss and no parts. No parts is a real problem because it makes the movement worthless if anything goes wrong and a part is needed. According to the teardown of one on TZUK, pivot sizes etc are different from eta and will not interchange. If they were $25 or $35 like other China movements they would be OK...but at eta prices...forget it. When I read about someone passinng them off as 'Swiss Eta' I get a little bit red in the face. Imho they are nothing more than $35 fake eta movements and should be used in $125 fake watches. Why not just make fake rolex movements?

quote = The Polex-ones are rare collectibles. /quote How many of you have a clasp with: RBGSFRKED SNSAWABE on the left side of the rolex logo... and D12 STEBLHOX 62523N.18 on the right Just me probably.

quote = Some guy over at RWG1 posted a thread about what a shame it is that so many people are wearing subs yet they do not dive.... He went on to explain that a watch should not be purchased/worn unless you plan to use it for its intended purpose....and was rather arrogant about it also.... So this got me thinking....does ANYONE agree with this lunatic? My argument was that if you like the way it looks and you can afford it then you are justified in buying and wearing it regardless of its intended purpose.... With this he does not agree.... /quote It makes me laugh when someone gets puffed up about "tool watches". ...especially fake tool watches. I have a friend who is an airline pilot. He does not wear a watch when flying because: 1...Close quarters in the cockpit causes him to bang a watch on everything. 2...There is a radio controlled clock on the instrument panel. 3...The last thing you need to know when landing a plane full of drunk vacationers in a thunderstorm is what time it is. On the ground, he does not wear a watch...he has a cell phone if he needs to know what time it is. I also have a friend who is a sat diver and he does not wear a watch when in the water because: 1...Someone topside keeps track of time etc. 2...The diving company will fire him if they catch him wearing a watch while diving. He wears a $125 quartz Seiko diver when off duty. I have another friend (brother of the airline pilot) who is a locomotive engineer and he must have a railroad approved watch on at all times and it has to be within 15 seconds of the Chief Dispatcher's Standard Time. He is required to check his watch against a standard clock every time he goes on duty. Three things you better know when you are on the road: 1...Your mile post location within 1/10 of a mile. 2...Speed. 3...What time it is. No watch, speeding etc = an investigation. Investigation = formal hearing with a Division Trainmaster and someone (usually a union rep) to represent the employee to find out why an operating rule was violated. He wears a Seiko RR approved quartz watch while on duty and does not wear a watch when off duty...he carries a cell phone. The mechanical "tool watch" is a dinosaur.

quote = Anyhow, just to clarify: will a 24-603-0 fit EITHER the old version or the new version tube? Or are there 24-603-0 variants (5.3mm vs 6mm) for each tube? And if so, how does one differentiate? Or do I need a crown with a different part number altogether? /quote A 603 crown will not work on a regular 6.0mm case tube, only a 5.3mm tube. Both crowns are 6.0mm outside diameter but the 24-603-0 etc has a crown post that is about 1.8mm in diameter where the regular 6.0mm crown (24-600-0 etc) post is about 2.15mm in diameter. Crown post = the tube coming out of the crown cap, not the telescoping threaded part. It's my opinion that anyone selling rolex parts should be sharp enough to know what they are selling and not keep sending the wrong parts over and over. I would ask the seller to refund shipping cost or give you an extra free crown for the trouble. Here are a couple posts about crowns and tubes: http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/mess...ation+continued http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/mess...s+information...

quote = i honestly believe that if the springdrive movement had come out with rolex or IWC or omega or panerai on the bridges it would be described as "the biggest advance in the recent history of horology" /quote I know what you mean. The diehard rolexfreaks went crazy about the 'new blue hairspring' that rolex came out with...their first new idea in 40 years. I got so excited that I yawned three times in a row before dozing off. I have also seen remarks claiming the Daytona is priced way too low...they want it priced so no one except a few rolex 'watch elites' can afford one. Then, after all the nail biting anticipitation of waiting three years to pay full retail plus tax for one...they wind up in therapy after "getting the call"...and the next guy on the list gets it. I guess the new $10k 'deep sea' is a real bargain... $10k for a $300 case and bracelet plus a $300 movement... Wait a minute! It has solid gold hands and hour markers! ...add $35.

quote = Sorry if this is a dumb question as I'm still a noob but is there a rep watch with quartz movement that has smooth sweeping second hand like in the automatic? Can you please provide examples and which dealer carries them ? Thanks, /quote About 10 years ago Seiko made a smooth sweeping quartz watch that had a regular one second tick but employed a small sweep second hand drive unit with a tiny hairspring enclosed inside a silicone filled capsule to dampen the motion. The watch was mostly for the Japan market so they did not make it into the world market in numbers and I have seen only one in the USA. I's a simple concept but would cost movement makers a few dollars per movement. If you figure the aveage high quality quartz movement cost maybe $10 to make and sells wholesale to watch makers for $20, adding a this type of smooth sweep second feature (at $10 for example) would double the production cost to $20 and jump the wholesale price to $40...a price watch makers would not be willing to pay. One exception is the quartz chronograph...some have a center timing hand that jumps 5 or 10 times a second to give 1/5th or 1/10th second timing accuracy. The reason this does not drain the battery quickly is because the timing hand does not run all the time. An instruction manual for a quartz chronograph may state the average battery life is 2 years under normal conditions and running the second hand all the time will cut it down to 6 months. Otoh a 5 tick per second quartz watch could probably run for a couple years on a 2016 or 2032 (3 volt) battery for example, but the watch makers probably figure no one cares enough to buy one. Regular time and date watches with a 2016 or 2032 battery will usually run 5 to 10 years between battery changes. It looks to me that a 5 tick per second quartz movement with a 2032 battery would make replicas a lot easier to live with than a mechanical movement that needs TLC all the time...especially chronographs! As far as that goes...I doubt the rolex oysterquartz watch failed to sell because no one wanted the convenience of a quartz watch...imho they failed to sell because the second hand jumped every second like a $20 watch. The reason watch companies make trivial changes to cheapen a watch and resist costly improvements is that the actual production cost of a $2000 retail watch may be only $200, so knocking $20 off the production cost by cutting corners = saving 10% of the total cost of making the watch...and adding $20 in improvements raises production cost 10%. Most watches retail for big bucks but cost nickles and dimes to make. It beats me how any high priced watch brand could go out of business if they sell much at all. ...maybe it's the private jet, caviar, and $10k hookers.

quote = I paid quite a lot to luckyyy (when he was still in business) for a MBW sub with solid gold midlinks.... they do exist but I'd think they are not easy to get, you'd have to test each one. PreciousTime had different ones with solid gold midlinks for a while before his supplier started giving him plated ones and some were not happy. He'd had a similar test to show the solid gold... but you really need to test each watch to make sure. /quote I have been around genuine and replica watches a looong time and have seen quite a few replicas with solid gold in them. About 5 years ago, a lot of tutone DJ showed up with solid gold mid links in the jubilee bracelets and solid gold bezels. They were supposed to be 14k but when tested the gold was about 10k. I removed the bezels on a few and had them tested along with the bottom of a few center links. None were above 10k. The crowns were heavy gold plated. The watches looked good though. At the time gold was around $400/troyoz and the watches sold for $750. A solid gold (claimed to be 18k) prez was $2000 to $3000 depending on bezels, dials etc but we never tested one. All the watches had 25 jewel etas in them and sapphire crystals...the crystals were aftmkt replacements. Fast forward to March 2008... I decided to make one up just to see how much it would cost. 1...new tutone black dial replica DJ with eta 25 jewel movement = $175 iirc, it's from 3 years ago 2...replica clasp = $0 (took it from the DJ) 3...ss/14k high quality 22 link Italy made jubilee with regular weight center links = $530 today's price ** heavy weight center link bracelet is $620 today...4 years ago they were $299 for light center link and $359 for heavy c/l 4...used genuine 18k DJ bezel from watch show = $150 ** the bezel was worn where some idiot tried to polish it so I turned it down to a smooth bezel 5...genuine used crown = $25 6...new genuine case tube, sealing washer and gasket = $15 7...new aftmkt oem spec swiss made sapphire crystal and gasket = $40 8...new stainless springbars (3) = 30 cents 9...new clasp rivet set and reinforcing tube = 50 cents 10...caseback gasket = 50 cents total = about $935US (counting $0 for labor and shipping cost) Figure a 'collector' pays around $125 to $150 for a swiss eta sub in steel/gold plate. Add a 14k solid center link bracelet for $300 = $450 cost. (there's quite a bit of gold in a 12 or 13 link oyster bracelet) Add a solid 14k bezel for $150 and it jumps to $600 cost. (a solid 8k aftmkt sub bezel was $99 in 7-07, today they are $199, aftmkt 18k was $299, today they are $499...there's not much gold in sub or gmt bezels) Add a genuine crown and case tube and it jumps to about $700 cost. Flash back 4 years and the difference in the bracelet price would make the DJ project watch cost about $715. Someone making these watches today with four year old bracelets will charge today's prices for the bracelets...not the four years ago price. Today, cheapo ss/14k bracelets are around $300 to $400 (the links are sometimes uneven on the bottom side and look ratty). Unknown karat weight tutone bracelets are around $250 (anywhere from 6k up). High quality ss/14k Italian bracelets are around $500 (good fit and finish, no question on karat content). A few years ago I saw some $199 tutone jubilee bracelets that were claimed to be ss/14k...we tested one and the center links were heavy gold plate over brass and they had a piece of plated brass soldered on the hoods. The plating was very heavy, by the time it wore through to the brass you forgot where you got it.

"Modded 729 here & HEV tutorial here. " Thanks! J3

quote = Interesting stuff, I'm going to respond more thoroughly in a bit, but here's a pic of the helium valve of the watch linked to by cskent, certainly night-and-day compared to the MBW stock engraved He valve: /quote I have a 5514/comex like 'Paul' sold about 3 years ago with a working escape valve and it has the '729' caseback that you still see now and then. The problem was that it did not have an inner bezel (the one that clamps the crystal to the case) and the rotating bezel was just pressed over the crystal. A genuine or aftmkt tropic 19 crystal fits the case just fine but since the watch did not have an inner bezel, I cemented the bezel to the case. I could have made an inner bezel and modified the rotating bezel but did not take the time to do it. He still shows the same watch for sale but it may have changed by now: http://www.pam111.com/product_info.php?cPa...;products_id=43 Since most cases only need the crown guards modified and a few details sorted out (case tubes, crowns, crystals etc), it looks to me like a '729' etc case would be a lot less $$ than a $600 or $700 case. A friend had the same watch and iirc it had the proper bezel setup. Since the escape valve and leaf spring come in the '729' cases, you could find a case that suited you better and bore the case out to accept the valve and grind the inside out a bit for the leaf spring using the '729' case and valve for patterns. The escape valve hole is stepped (bigger close to the outside) but this can be worked out using a small mill bit. Since an O ring seals the valve against the step in the case, maybe the larger od part of the hole would be OK without finishing the step to a flat ledge. The work would have to be done in a milling machine or precision drill press with the case clamped solid to the table. You will need a lathe to make the valve and modify any round parts. As far as this goes, someone could make escape valves and bore cases for a lot less than the high $$ cases sell for. All you need are samples to make the parts from and cases that are close to spec. If someone (not me!) wanted to do this, a Sherline lathe with a milling machine (or Sherline lathe plus a milling machine frame and use the lathe motor on the milling machine). The milling machine will do the job and cost less $$ than a couple $700 cases would cost. Someone (not me!) could modify the cases and make the valves for maybe $100 a shot and pay for the machines in a short time. The leaf spring can be made out of a section of small clock mainspring etc and the valve can be made out of a small stainless steel nail or wire stock. The O rings would be easy to get from a watch material supply house. The hardest thing is cutting the stepped hole in the case and making cutter bits for the lathe. http://www.sherline.com/ As for the rolex 1570 fitting an eta case, I would not use a genuine movement in a fake case...it takes the fun out of it and defeats the purpose. I would just use a 21600 bph eta in it.

Imho, the swiss better be running for cover. The last time something this big came to pass...quartz watches took them to their knees. Japan brands have little to lose because much of their production has been in China for years and Seiko (for example) only makes their higher priced low production watches in Japan now. The swiss however, have a problem...much of their cases, dials, bracelets etc already come from China but they choose to lie about it and keep lowering the "swiss made" standard so that all it takes now to be "swiss made" is a complete Chinese/Japanese etc watch with a couple over priced swiss parts added and the movement stuck in the case and timed in switzerland. Zodiac with a Claro Semag CL888 for example. A good pic and some info on TZ... http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=msg...0&rid=65913 The only thing swiss watches have to brag about today is the "swiss made" movement while every day the Chinese are creeping up on them, making higher quality movements... China probably already makes most of the "swiss" cases, bracelets, and dials anyway. Then the geniuses at swatch decided to cut off a big chunk of the eta movement supply. When they announced it a few years ago...panic! Exactly what they wanted. Since then, a few other brands have gone online with movements...and the the panic is turning into a yawn. Not what swatch expected, they were looking forward to selling more eta powered omegas, longines, midos, tissots, etc...after all, they are "swiss made". As soon as Sellita (swiss), Sea Gull (China) and a few others go into full production with high quality movements...the eta shortage will be forgotten. (the key words are 'high quality') They have until 2011 before swatch closes the door and by then the other movement makers should have the bugs worked out. The catch (as I see it) is if the Chinese try to charge eta prices for low quality movements...they may look like an eta but they have to perform like an eta to make it. The Venus 175 clone proves the Chinese can make a cheap chronograph that is pretty good and their $900 tourbys prove that the swiss are getting rich by charging $25K to $500K for basically the same thing. Take a China tourby movement, slick the movement up, and stick it in a gold case and Blammo!...same as swiss except for the price and brand name. Another catch...the Chinese have no brand recognition so they will have to prove themselves by making quality watches with quality movements at reasonable prices. This will not be easy. Otoh...a $1000 totally reliable mechanical chronographs and a $3000 totally reliable mechanical tourbillion will put them on the map. Look how far they have gone with what they are offering. This is their chance to stomp the swiss if they do not screw it up. One thing for sure...they will have to get the dirt and hair out of their movements! Time will tell...

quote = I got a noob or begin mariner yesterday, and it has the miyota copy in it, not the DG 2813. The pictures on the site show the Miyota, so I missed it. I noticed that the second hand is a little jerky compared to the DG, which is supposedly 28.8k, I don't know about that, the 2813 is supposed to be 21.6. I guess the dealers dont advertise it with 28.8 anymore though either. Whatever is in this noob sucks compared to whatever the old movement was. Two of them sitting side by side and I see a huge difference. I can actually count the number of "ticks" per second, 4, and the DG I can't tell if I'm seeing 6 or 8. Way smoother. The heck with the white lie about beats per hour, I want the old movement back! BTW, the movement is silver in color and has NN stamped under the balance wheel. /quote The DG/CH 2813 is a Miyota copy. A Miyota look alike with NN = Nanning 38. The Miyota clones I have seen...DG/CH 2813, NN 38 etc were 21,600 bph. I have seen them with "Swiss Made 25 jewels", "7 Jewels China" and "21 jewels China" on them...all were the exact same movement. Imho a good or bad movement of this type usually depends on dirt in the movement, dry jewels etc vs clean and properly lubricated. I have had a lot or trouble with these movements. I have had much better luck with the Seagull ST 16. It looks a lot like the other two except it has a version of Seiko's "Magic Lever" in place of a reverser etc. I have some ST 16 movements from 5 or 6 years ago with "Pusan Co. S. Korea, 18 jewels unadjusted" on them. I read somewhere that they had a factory in South Korea. The stuttering second hand is a common problem with these movements. It is caused by the tension spring rubbing the sweep second pinion not having enough tension. This allows the second hand to miss a beat now and then. It does not harm anything at all, it is just distracting. To check for this problem, hold the watch vertically and the second hand should track perfectly while the long heavy end of the second hand is moving 'uphill' and sometimes skip when the long end moves 'downhill'. Be warned that if you take the top plate off a DG/CH 2813 etc to bend the tension spring a little to provide more friction...all the train wheels, reverser etc are under this one plate. They can be a real hassle to put back together. The ST 16 is not as bad. All you have to do is remove the winding rotor and the plate over the "Magic Lever" to get to the tension spring. You need to be very careful and put the "wishbone" winding fork back right though. Good luck! J3