Watchmeister

Anton- Thanks for your kind words. This one comes from a secondary jeweler based in Florida. I am finding that there is a whole subset of secondary jewelers who you can work with. And as the U.S. recession has started to kick-in full force the prices in this country are starting to get reasonable. The pawnbrokers are emerging out of the woodwork now ogens but they still have no sense of appropriate pricing. In general I have not bought a gen anything new from a traditional AD in more than 20 years. No fun in that.

The latest addition to the PAM family: Sanro- Stunning watch!

If it is true it makes little sense and it would clearly be a loss for Panerai. BUT never underestimate being a part of the Richemont umbrella. Richemont is the premier watch marketing company and at the end of the day we know that watches are as much about marketing as design. As far as I know U-boat is such a low brow company one would have to wonder whether Bonati is leaving for a lot of money, frustrated at not being able to do as he likes as a smaller subsidiary of a much larger company or being asked to transition out. You never know. Too often the man who can drive sales to 50,000 units at a $6,000 average price point is not the man who can sell 100,000 units at $15,000. I have always wondered if the high end models are in fact selling well. The new models appear a little too available from grey market channels in this country and that usually means there is a hiccup. First and foremost, I hope it is an April Fools joke.

PVD is all about surface preparation and chemical coating. The surface preparation comes in the form of bead blasting...literally pounding the case with "glass" beads. The amount of time and size of bead will impact what the pre-pvd finish is. And it contributes to the sheen or lack thereof that you see after the PVD coat. As regards the PVD coat, it comes in numerous forms based on the underlying chemical compound. The most common traditional coatings are Ti, Tin and TiAln with another process known as DLC for watches. Panerai has used different coatings on different models and at different times. Here is a Tin process on a 09 rep. The finish on this one is damn close to the older PAM PVD's- a touch too blue but with proper sheen: If you are determined to do an automatic the standard (and only one prior to this year?) is the PAM 28 Power Reserve. Having said that both the 09 and the 28 use a more primitive and less durable form of PVD than what is on later PVD versions. Also today many watches utilize ceramics which is even more durable than any PVD process but again looks different. In terms of what is readily available I believe it works like this: Basic PVD Rep - True PVD but lack of surface preparation causes it to look too shiny (almost anodized) Davidsen PVD - Big improvement. Coloring is fairly close but case preparation leaves a flat gray appearance as opposed to the sheen on a gen Outside PVD sources - Don't know who is currently offering it but that will substantially raise the price . Other folks should feel free to correct me as I am writing this off the top of my head and I haven't thought about this for quite a while.

I am glad to know about it. Why? It is something I factor in when considering buying a rep. On some reps it is a dead giveaway and I wouldn't buy it. On others it doesn't phase me. On a Base rep where the A's are very low it does bother me enough that I don't own one. On a busy dial automatic like the GMT's, PR's, Daylights, etc. I am fine with it. And A's are not all created equal. And I agree with the earlier comment that if you got a crappy cg, crown, date or whatever it is the least of your problems. But most likely anyone who has noticed the A's is trying to do something about everything else.

This is one of those minute issues which once you see it a couple of times it is an instant tell. You have to decide whether you care. On the plus side it does enable you to tell fairly quickly whether you are bidding on a rep or a gen.

Very sorry to hear that. Now if you had told me it had to do with his stomach and he lived in the U.S. down south ...

Should clear up over the next day. It's a long story...

I say rep. I don't own a newer gen Marina sandwich dial (I am old school) but I am looking at an L 002 as I write this. K- I know you have an opinion.

It's all a conspiracy! Okay let's not go there.

Panerai's have the best resale value and Jaeger's have the absolute worst resale results (excepting GP and a couple of other dying brands). The moral of the story is the brand and design receives much more consideration than the WISical elements of the watch for 99% of watch buyers. And that is what Luxury Branded product is all about. Ergo- this question will always be answered yes for almost all branded product once you eliminate the cachee of the brand.

To the best of my knowledge there are two modders worldwide with strong reviews - Ziggy and Vaccuum. Everyone else has self-destructed.

M- It is funny you brought this up. I was just looking at a 188 where I put on the 2nd gen dial in old case. It looks to me that they had the nerve to fix the first "A" in Panerai and then leave the second one lower. Low A's are the bane of PAM modders. And has been said it varies both in various rep models and frankly the gens as well. It is not always the same on the gens either. And the obviousness completely depends on the model and the resultant words on the dial and size of the words. On a handwind it is blatantly obvious - much less so on a a complex automatic where the words are smaller. There are definitely good and bad low "A"'s as well. As the text gets smaller the room for error gets smaller. And for those who are rolling their eyes - to each their own. I would also make the observation that those who obsess on this are actually the last folks to try and deceive others. Why? Because to them it is just so obvious.

Great review. I would be careful on those bezel markers. If they are polished they may well be chrome or some metal plated on a base metal. If it is like the original 187 you can rub that finish off. Are the markers on the bezel correctly sized and placed on the bezel? That used to be a continuing problem.

Sssurfer- Great post. I have found that the 2892's truly need regular service (every 3 years or so) and that is the price we pay for having them. It is a real pain in the neck. But as long as there is a date changer on the side, which may well be superior in terms of less stress on the watch, I have no interest in having a PAM rep with this movement. It is a glaring and unfixable flaw short of recasing the watch.

Beyond what I have learned from this loop regarding earlier Rolexes I have learned one other important thing. Never buy a vintage one. You will never know whether it is real (or for that matter what would constitute real) unless you are buying from the original owner.

Actually I think it is more about supply and demand. In luxury branded products it is up to the marketing department to develop that demand.

IMHO things have changed dramatically. Richemont has done a great job of increasing brand awareness. They are more aggressively sponsoring yachting, watch events and the like as many larger brands do. They are showing up in big advertisements in the WSJ, etc. This is the Rolex formula. I have been curious whether Richemont would try and get PAM involved in Tennis or golf. I doubt it as PAM's are based on the whole nautical theme. Now they are trying to expand the brand with the Ferrari line and their own movements. Just give Richemont some time. They don't usually fail. Two years ago I would see one every few weeks on the subway or in the streets. Lets face it. You can't miss them. Then two summers ago Panerai became the "it" watch for the Hamptons and showed up simultaneously big time in Hollywood. Like everything else of a style nature in the U.S. a brand typically starts on the coasts and works its way inwards. In NYC I now see them much less frequently than Rolex or Breitling, of course, but more frequently than just about any other branded watch with a list of $3,000 or more. Even more telling, if you walk down 47th street in NYC to the watch dealers it is a similar story. Two years ago they wouldn't even put them in the window. Today they occupy significant portions of their window space and if you ask them (I asked two) they are their most frequent sellers. You now can buy virtually any regular model and they get a strict 90% or so of list. If you look closely at the listings on the bay or on Risti you will see at least 4-5 NYC dealers regularly selling there. As I said earlier, I continue to believe there is real downside in the secondary market. In the long run they are likely to trade at the same 50-70% of original list. A combination of style and affordability of a "cool" watch has worked for the brand so far. AP sold 24,000 units last year. I wonder what PAM sells these days. I will tell you that there authorized dealers are still getting very little inventory. Something is going right. As to what they worth, they are worth whatever you think they are worth. There is a 3 year waiting list for a $10,000 Hermes bag made out of leather. Is a Patek wrist watch really worth the value of a Ferarri? So if you like the aesthetics of PAM's - wear and enjoy them. Are they overpriced? Maybe but the question is relative to what. The ones I have bought buy tend to be older and/or rarer models. I am still deciding whether to keep them for 20 years and see if they become the Red Sub or sell them when I get bored. I am sure I will end up selling them when I get bored. But I am loving them now. And yes, my reps still get more wrist time.

Here is the hint... You can't. You will mangle the ratchet mechanism trying to get it off. If I remember correctly when Ziggy was doing my 7753 transplant we ended up having to replace the bezel markers rather than the bezel for this reason.

Is that really the price for a Fiddy? I know one person who recently bought one and I will tell you the price was nothing like $25k. Similarly I had the opportunity to inspect a true 3646 with impeccable provenance immediately preceding a Christies auction. Christies accounts for 70-80% of the legit watch auctions. With all the hype of $100,000 WWII vintage PAM's the seller went with a conservative $70-90k estimate and very reasonable reserve. Well, it didn't meet its reserve and at the same auction the better Rolexes went through the roof. On a lesser note the La Bomba which is the first 1000 out of Panerai has been theoretically selling for $9k or so according to experts but in reality one which had never been worn just traded at $6k which is 100% of list and well below what people thought it was worth. Watch markets are very inefficient and as such we all have to think long and hard before buying if you don't know you want to keep it forever. V- You are right that if you are willing to keep a watch for many years you have a shot. But just think of all those 50's Rolexes that sell for $1,000. Kind of like cars. Keep your car for 20 years and you are either going to look like a genius or an idiot.

A very interesting question. I am much more focused on the genuine aftermarket as I have always bought gens in the secondary market. Reps are worth whatever you think they are worth. And there is no question that PAM resale values are currently well ahead of any brand other than perhaps AP or Patek. I usually expect to pay 50-60% of list price for a well cared for previously sold branded watch. And those numbers can go even lower on some wonderful brands (VC, Jaeger, Lange, etc). Panerai is one of the very few that probably sell closer to 80% of list. And very often you can actually be paying more than list price for a model that was put out only a few years ago. In the current market a reasonable deal for a 2 year old 196 would be in the $6000 range. Now go back and look at the list price of that watch and you are paying close to 100% of the then list. This does not happen with many watches other than truly limited editions. The only other watches that appear to have similar resale characteristics are the AP ROO's which also put out numerous "limited edition" models and IWC Big Pilots. I am concerned that all these watches may all turn out to be the "Pokemon Cards" of branded watches. Okay, I am exaggerating but you get my drift. If you watch TZ or Watchnet these watches are the most traded. I do think Panerai will have longevity. Why? The trend to larger watches is going on 20 years now (37-40-42-44) and still going strong. It obviously maxes out at some point. But even the old school brands (as evidenced by new Jaeger dive watches, HBB's, AP ROO, etc.) are participating in that trend. I also believe that having Richemont as your parent will further the cause. Having said all that, if I do buy a PAM gen I do assume that paying 80% of list puts you at risk for another 15-20% decline. But for now a combination of good positioning, limiting supply thru smaller runs of numerous editions and having a very affordable price point enlarging the potential customer base will continue to support these prices for some period of time. I will be interested to see how the $10,000 plus models fare. If I were a betting man I suspect the more expensive PAM's will decline faster. In general that is always the case. The more expensive the watch the faster the secondary value declines. When was the last time you saw a $50,000 plus watch which was more than a couple of years old go for more than 60% of list. And it makes sense as you have a much smaller target audience. On the newer more expensive 8 day PAM's it appears to me that their prices are declining more in line with other brands. I have seen a couple of 190H's trade in the $6k area well down from their list. So in a funny way you might say that if you are determined to protect value go to the lower end.

I have learned more in this one loop than in everything else I have read in the last month. Ziggy- Thanks for getting this going. Participants - Kudos to you. True WISdom is very rare and even less frequently revealed. This one certainly deserves a complete reread from all those who are interested in Rolex history and are lacking in knowledge (i.e. me). If I were the owner of this watch, whether franken or gen, I would be one very proud owner.

How could you have a watch with such huge pusher and crown prophylactics rated no better than 200m.

I have been wondering the same thing. But if you own one by accident you don't care what the reasoning is.