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Wow, I wasn't even thinking that there would be any interest in this, and I laughed when I saw Oli replied cause I figured I should've just put it in a PM because that would be the end of it. DVN, that's awesome if you're able to speak vietnamese and have friends who live there. I wonder if, with a little bit of work, we might be able to track down the source of these things directly. Considering the mark-up on the MBW's, and considering that NDtrading sells primarily to a genuine owner market, I am hoping that we may discover that they're affordable, and if so, the possibility of branching into uncharted territory is wide-open.

I don't know how anyone affords those bloody NDtrading or vietnam cases, etc.. They're so expensive. I would kill to have a 1655 rep or one of their 1665 reps, but they're just too much money for me at this point. It seems to me like there's been a broadening out of options for rep cases to build on. I wish there were a way that we could get them at a discount to their general market value to non-replica aware people who are obviously going to be price gouged as a result.

Ok, so yesterday I received a beautiful MBW DRSD from another member. It was in such great shape that I felt it might be difficult to to any aging to the case or dial. Well, the Mrs. and kids were gone today so I thought I would start the modding. First thing to do was remove the movement. Of course it had the standard 2836-2 in it. My first observation was that the datewheel was perfectly aligned on ALL DAYS. It was REALLY going to be hard to do this with the 2846 and UBI that I had sitting here. I then drilled the spring bar holes. I had recently bought a drill press and the proper bits, so this was pretty straightforward. I actually drilled the holes so tight that I ended up polishing the spring bar tips so that they would glide all the way out and nearly sit flush with the outside of the lugs. I also installed a genuine tube and crown. Crown lines up perfectly and this was the first one that I actually re-tapped the tube hole. She fits as tight as............. I removed the bezel insert, bleached it for about an hour and used some steel wool to age the edges before snapping it back in. YES I used a couple drops of gorilla glue just to be sure it didnt come out prematurely, but I really dont think it was necessary. Now on to the movement swap. I first noticed something that concerned me with the original 2836. It appeared that there was epoxy all the way around the movement on the spacer ring. After removing the hands and trying to pull the dial off from the usual spots, it was obvious that the dial was glued on. Using an exacto knife I was able to relove the dial cleanly. AND WHAT DO I FIND??? A dial that didnt have any feet, but originally had feet in the position of 12 and 7. ALSO, the blank was stamped SINGER and had a cut out for a gear. My question is, are all MBW's this way??? I have a few others that I have never bothered to remove the dial from, but I know that they have dial feel for an ETA. Is this one of the NDTrading dial??? Swapping the movements consisted of installing the UBI datewheel that came with the movement. I used 1/2 dial dots at 4 positions to attach it. It took MANY tries, but eventually I got it centered for all dates. Then I used fast setting epoxy to adhere the dial spacer to the movement (3 dots spaced around the movement) and then I used 4 dots of epoxy on the spacer ring to adhere the dial. Putting the hands on and putting the movement back in the watch went without issue. I didnt age the dial simply because it looks pretty good the way it is. I then realized that the stem that came with the 2846 was different than the one from the 2846. I had not seen this before, arent they the same??? SO, I had to spend another hour grinding down the 2846 stem so that it was the proper size. This took about 8 different installs and removals because since they were different, and I had only one stem I couldnt afford to cut it too short. All that was left was opening the center tube of the rivited band to accept the gen spring bars and putting the bracelet back on. My wife is off with the kids and has my digicam, so I will post pics later. I would LOVE answers concerning the SINGER stamped dia with 1570 feet removed. Thanks all, and pics will be up soon.

It looks like 1 of the older MBW dials. Not an NDtrading dial (at right).

Ziggy -- Thank you for taking the time to take & post the new pics. These shed new light on the subject & only enforce what I thought already: Gen movement (impossible to tell whether the bridge & plate signings are original or were added by someone like Phong without having the watch appraised by Rolex, but I will be positive & assume the movement is 100% gen), NDtrading dial & aftermarket case/caseback (lug scratches aside (scratches can be added in a matter of minutes), the engravings between the lugs look, to me, to be of recent vintage). Since a watch fitted with an aftermarket dial would be rejected outright by Rolex, why not do the next best thing - post a few of these pics of the watch on TZ & poll some of the experts there for their opinion. If Dowling & a few of the other senior experts give this watch the thumbs-up, that would be good enough for me. Ziggy, are you game?

I'll just touch on these points: My 5508 and my 6205 have no "watchmaker" notes engraved into the casebacks, weird I know, but they are clean as you can see in the pics. I am not trying to prove I am right, since I have nothing to gain. And I willingly posted all the pics of the area's that may help determin what this is, or isn't. I didn't show the back of the dial, because it's identical to the NDTrading one someone posted, it's identical which means aftermarket. As for the rest, for sure the movement is genuine Rolex, "M" seems to be authentic as well, the rest appears to be genuine, but I have no way of knowing...and I am not sure if these pics will prove it one way or the other. I have nothing to be careful about concerning this watch, it's not mine, what the owner does once he gets it back, is not my problem or concern. But I doubt if I will ever see one in the shop again soon But I have to say, that this dial of mine... Looks a lot like this dial on your genuine one... RG

Avitt -- I figured you would enjoy the viewing. For reference, here is NDtrading's $400 aftermarket version How many errors can you spot? I count 8 without putting any effort into it. Red color wrong Incorrect crown Incorrect ROLEX font (especially the 'O' in Rolex) Incorrect fonts in the next 2 lines Lume at 12 (should not be there) Subdials & outer ring not deep enough Lower tail on the '3' in '30 in the subdial at 3 should extend beyond the top tail Lower 2 lines (pointing at 20 & 10) in the same subdial should be shorter than the top line

Only the owner (or modder) of the watch knows the origin of the case. I can only guess based on the known sources of aftermarket cases (NDtrading being the most popular). What I do know for certain is that aftermarket cases for these watches are plentiful on the web & the gen watches are not. So, based on the discrepancies, I tend to assume the worst until proven otherwise. I think we will all know more if Ziggy can measure the case & post pictures of the model & serial numbers between the lugs.

Also the case from NDtrading has a plain bezel the ziggy example should be fitted with a rotating bezel, i think!

The dial is not a redial, it is a newly made aftermarket dial. Nothing gen about it. Here is the NDtrading 6541 (look familiar?)

The back of the second dial is unmarked. My gen from '78 is stamped Beyeler on the back. Lume is somewhat sloppy, so I'd agree that it looks like a redial, or it's an outright fake. I concur with freddy that the NDTrading dials are new. They refer to them as redials in an effort to stay out of hot water with the Rolex guys is my theory.

These & most of the 'repainted' dials sold by NDtrading & other dial vendors are not in fact redials at all. What they are are new aftermarket dials being marketed as 'repainted' to give them some degree of authenticity, which they do not deserve.

Actually, on 2nd look the 2nd dial looks like an NDtrading piece that may have been relumed, which is what threw me the 1st time. So they are all probably fakes, with the 2nd 1 being the least objectionable.

Michael Young or NDtrading. Definitely not gen.

@mezzanine, I have the bracelet last year from ebay around thanksgiving. @alligoat The movement had a fresh service when I bought it. I still need that Insert, do you have the URL fro NDtrading, I am going to send all the parts to The Zigmeister I want the dial and hands aged that is something I am unable to do. I can replace the crystal drill lug holes, modified crown guards and that is, I do not have a tap tool for the crown I will post some pictures when this bay is complete, it will sometime after march

Genuine insert??? Set of hands- saw some at NDTrading for $100 Also might want to consider a service for the 1570- around $200 maybe Fitting the movement into the case may require a little filing on the side opposite the stem. Other than that, I believe it's a pretty simple fit- up. Especially if you've already installed the case tube. Good luck. Sounds like you'll have a very nice franken for a little over $2K.

I do not know about NDtrading's cases, but it will fit (sometimes, with a bit of mechanical persuasion) either DW's or Phong's case. There are numerous threads in the Rolex forum that describe this. Use the Search.

With the exception of the dial (which, although I have seen worse, looks like a poorly colored NDtrading dial), I agree with the rest of your comments.

I decided that I'd post the answer to your PM in this thread, as it might be useful for other members who are considering the same. I think that this has become a more popular route recently, and perhaps not wisely so once you see the $$ on some of these dials- this is the type of information that is usually only available in the 'supporters only' area of the site. My suggestion is to be smart about what parts you choose to go gen with, as some are not as important to the overall 'look' of the watch. I think you're probably smart to get a re-dial, but keep in mind that it's only you that's going to really appreciate that level of detail. I would go with a red dial, and look for the best possible quality dial for around $300 US. Otherwise you could get a less than perfect gen dial that hasn't be refinished for around $500. It can be a little tricky to find the right re-dial...especially for a red submariner. You'll be glad you went red, though. This dial would need to be sent to The Zigmeister in canada to be re-lumed, which would be indistinguishable from the gen tritium and install, which would add $100 to the cost. The dial itself would be around $600. That's what I meant when I said that it would cost around $700 for a gen white dial. Here's another one that would run closer to $950- these are current prices, btw... Or, if you're feeling ambitious, and want to take a look at a red dial that I believe is ready to go for intall, and is $3500: The suggestions about where to source re-dials are best left to other members. There's more 'art' involved in them. I've got what I believe to be a re-dial on my SD, which was done by the guy at classicwatchparts. There are popular re-dialers like NDtrading and such.

hahaha Only money.......... Someone (I cannot remember who -- KKS maybe???????) managed to get a 1575 into an MBW DRSD case without any serious mods required other than to carve out the semi-circular area on the inside of the case (nearly opposite from the crown as on the gen cases) to fit the 1575's locking screw. I wish I could find that original thread, but I remember he said it went in without any serious problems & everything lined up just as it should. I would expect that anyway since the MBW case is known for its dimensional accuracy, which is why it accepts so many gen parts without modification. But I am still undecided as to whether or not to upgrade the movement. On the one hand, if the dial looks as good (or better, as was the case with the NDtrading dial) when I receive it as it does in the pictures, it may be hard not to go all the way with this one. But on the other hand, the new dial is not perfect & the DRSD is not a grail watch for me (even though I have come to appreciate it much more as its appearance has improved with each successive mod). But my decision-making is definitely being affected by all of the comments from you guys. So please keep them coming.

Freddy, we're on the same page with regard to the dial issues of the MBW. It's ironic, because you have some true artists who are great at doing vintage lume work and aging the dial- and you end up with a tremendous looking dial. That's the thing- the age effects are awesome, but when you actually look at the dial closely, it has serious flaws. I don't think a lot of people are very concerned about the smaller imperfections....or they haven't seen a genuine dial or a re-dial of this quality. The patina of the genuine dials are hard to get right. If you look at the dial you linked to, the patina is really flat and doesn't show the type of macro level variation in texture that you see with the gens. You're right, that crown is too thin. I still think it's better than the MBW coronet, which is unrefined and looks poorly defined. It's hard to say because there is so much variation. I might like 'O' on this dial better than the one on the original dial in question. The 'Rolex' spacing on this seems wrong to me...too condensed together. The font below the 'Rolex' is wrong, as far as I can tell, but again, I could be wrong. The dial itself looks to me like a rep dial, rather than a good re-dial. It has the manufactured type of features of a generic dial finish/texture as well as the classic red replica colour/font that is used on all of the vintages...even though it's NDtrading. The red is sort of a blood-red put straight onto the black dial background. The gen red looks like a cherry red paint, and it looks almost like they do a layer of white as a base coat before the red gets applied. The bottom couple of lines look like the right font to me, but the spacing is questionable. If you get a chance to see a gen dial, and I'm assuming this applies to the older DRSD dials (which is not necessarily a fair assumption), but the quality of the print on the dials is really high. It's hard for the rep makers to get that right, as well as they might do some of the more tactile details like fonts and colours, but getting the fineness of detail that the genuines have is practically difficult...as I think Rolex intended it to be.

That is what I think too. They got the crown, date window & lower 5 lines of printing almost dead-on (except for the red color, which could have been a shade darker, but still closer than the MBW). The dial background texture & color also look correct for this vintage. And unlike the NDtrading dials, the index markers at 6 & 9 are the correct width. I would have preferred a more whitish lume color, but I could live with it as is. All in all, I think this is a huge step forward. Not perfect by any means, but the 1st redial or aftermarket dial I have seen that could almost fool me or pass as gen upon close examination if I saw it in a watch that otherwise looked gen. The question now is whether to chop the feet & fit it to my 2846, or go all-out & get a 1570 ($1,200 or so) and do it up right?

Yes, he has a number of new items, but all of the dials look like NDtrading. I asked him at one point if he would be willing to sell one of the 1665 casebacks separately, but he wanted $450, so I passed. Maybe if we could put together a group buy for 10 or 20 casebacks we might be able to get him to price them realistically? There are some other more minor differences between the MBW & Vietnam 1665 cases (most notably, the size & location of the lug holes are more accurate on the Vietnam case), but it is the caseback that sets it apart from the MBW. Like the gen, all the fonts on it are the correct size/style & in the correct locations. And after the dial, the caseback is the next most obvious shortcoming on the MBW, even when filed/sanded/buffed to perfection the MBW caseback still looks too modern & lacks the gens convex shape.

I had tried a month or so ago. Like you say, NDTrading type dials which aren't my favorite. But the cases could be another matter if they are reasonably priced. But I did notice that Phong has expanded his selection recently- like a 6238 dial.

I have never tried to contact him, but I have browsed his site before (I like the web design). He is selling NDtrading dials (not bad, but I think the MBW dials contain lesser sins) without prices, but everyone seems to sell them for about the same price, or close. Some of his watches look pretty good. But like with Phong, you have to assume that they are put together with aftermarket parts since he sells them. I see that alot of the links on the site return errors. When did you try to contact him? Maybe he is not doing business anymore?