TeeJay Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 I am glad to hear the thin springbars work for you. But if these 7206s have been around for a year & a half, why has no one ever mentioned it? There have been numerous threads discussing how crummy the 'rivet' bracelets are that come with vintage Rolex reps & asking if a source of something better exists. The answer, until last week when I discovered the pics of the 7206 on Yuki's site, had always been that no one is making any good rivet bracelets. Anyway, the thin 'bars do not fit an accurately made early Sub or GMT (I have tried the thin 'bars in both my gen & Silix-modded 6542 cases). The lug holes in these watches are made to fit 2mm 'bars. The thinner 'bars look wrong (their pins do not fully fill the lug holes) & the end links are too loose. Unfortunately, I just received a reply from Yuki & it does not sound like they can (or will) correct the end links. They offered me a free pair of thin springbars, which do not properly fit my watches. That's a shame Might you be able to swap the endlinks for a set which would fit the 2mm springbars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Yuki really ought to get busy making a folded links oyster 78360. Now THAT would be a money-spinner.... I agree. But only if/after they fix the springbar issue on the 7206, so they understand the importance of a little detail like that. I can see little to be gained in producing another nearly perfect bracelet that is functionally unusable on the watches it is intended for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 That's a shame Might you be able to swap the endlinks for a set which would fit the 2mm springbars? Not easily. The end links on the 7206 (& a number of other riveted & folded link bracelets) are semi-permanently attached to the bracelet. And even if you are able to get the existing end links off, you then have to locate a gen pair to re-install & I do not recall ever having seen a set of fixed end links for sale separately. Further, you end up with hinges looking like this Under nearly all circumstances, there is never any reason for this area of a bracelet to be damaged like this. Unless, of course, the entire bracelet looks the same. So, when searching for 7835s, always look carefully at this hinge (& ask for good, clear pics if they are not provided, which is itself a good reason to suspect monkey business). It is a tell-tale sign of a franken-bracelet & a considerable number of the rivets & folded links I have been seeing for sale on ebay (even from generally trustworthy sellers) are frankens. Buyer Beware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 That thing is scary good. Wow. So why hasn't anyone approached this from the other direction? How about drilling the tube in the endlink? Or pressing in a tapered reamer and opening it by force? We're not talking much additional room here, and for a hundred clams you can do some experimenting. I know I plan to. I've got a 6536 that's just begging for one of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 That thing is scary good. Wow. So why hasn't anyone approached this from the other direction? How about drilling the tube in the endlink? Or pressing in a tapered reamer and opening it by force? We're not talking much additional room here, and for a hundred clams you can do some experimenting. I know I plan to. I've got a 6536 that's just begging for one of these. I have (been experimenting). So far, with no success. I have been trying to expand the tube by running slightly larger phillips head screwdrivers into it. But I keep hearing metal tearing sounds. Trouble is, as you may know, that the tube is formed by a sheet of steel that feeds in through the bottom of the end link, which is looped to form the tube & then fed back out the same way it went in. The same piece of metal that forms the tube is also what connects (& secures) the end link onto the hinge of the 1st standard link in the bracelet As the bracelet arrived, the loops were pulling the end links fairly tight against the 1st links & my dabbling has caused them to tighten even more. So much so that the end links are difficult to rotate around the 1st link & I still cannot fit the springbar. Once again, I just cannot understand how anyone could spend the time required to copy the details of something so intricately only to screw up something so important as how you attach the finished product onto its intended mate. By the way, the 7206/80 bracelet is also correct for 1016s, 1019s, 1675s, 1680s, 5512s, 5513s, 5514s & 6541s (Subs & some other models require 2mm springbars). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 That was going to be my suggestion as well- Try to open the tube up just ever so much. You really don't need that much more in the way of clearance... Looks great otherwise. The biggest detail that would give it away in my opinion is the ref stamping on the upper links and of course the end links. Wonder if you can get those as blanks, and have an outside source try and do the engraving instead? Of course there's no point in doing so unless the end link tube issue is resolved... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Looks great otherwise. The biggest detail that would give it away in my opinion is the ref stamping on the upper links and of course the end links. Wonder if you can get those as blanks, and have an outside source try and do the engraving instead? Thanks for the input, Ubi. Yes, I suppose you could do that. But, the way I see it, anyone who can ID the bracelet based on its engravings (which, while not perfect, are not bad at all - at least they are engravings, as opposed to etchings) will also be able to ID the watch as a franken. And since the exterior of the bracelet is just about perfect (it has fooled me more than once already while I was putting the pics together for this thread), I could not justify the time & effort required to replace the end links with custom pieces or gens (if that is even possible). If (when) the end link tube issue is solved so these bracelets can actually be used with the watches they are intended for, I would have absolutely no qualms about wearing it anywhere. Under normal circumstances (when seen on your wrist), no one could possibly ID this bracelet as anything but a gen. And the added credibility a gen bracelet adds to a good franken goes for this bracelet as well. It is that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Okay, instead of reaming it, how about chucking up a very thin jeweler's rat-tail file and using a dremel? Like Ubi said we're talking thousandths here to make it fit. Heck, even a drill bit might work if you could insert it so the spin didn't catch the open edge where the sheet material is folded over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Not easily. The end links on the 7206 (& a number of other riveted & folded link bracelets) are semi-permanently attached to the bracelet. And even if you are able to get the existing end links off, you then have to locate a gen pair to re-install & I do not recall ever having seen a set of fixed end links for sale separately. Further, you end up with hinges looking like this Under nearly all circumstances, there is never any reason for this area of a bracelet to be damaged like this. Unless, of course, the entire bracelet looks the same. So, when searching for 7835s, always look carefully at this hinge (& ask for good, clear pics if they are not provided, which is itself a good reason to suspect monkey business). It is a tell-tale sign of a franken-bracelet & a considerable number of the rivets & folded links I have been seeing for sale on ebay (even from generally trustworthy sellers) are frankens. Buyer Beware. That's a shame indeed. Nothing more frustrating that getting something 'nearly there', but not being able to complete on the situation. I'm not sure if this is a situation you've experienced with your low-profile case, but with my Silix one, I cannot re-install the original factory bracelet, as it was held in place by severely modified/bent springbars, which got chucked out long ago. This is why my vintage sub has the modern end-links: That is the only bracelet end-links which would fit onto the case... I'd be interested to see if one of these bracelets would fit to the case, as I haven't drilled the lugs, but given the other situation, I'm concerned about if it would actually fit... I hope you manage to get the situation resolved, I guess if the worst comes to the worst, you could always sell on the bracelet you have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Okay, instead of reaming it, how about chucking up a very thin jeweler's rat-tail file and using a dremel? Like Ubi said we're talking thousandths here to make it fit. Heck, even a drill bit might work if you could insert it so the spin didn't catch the open edge where the sheet material is folded over. The metal is very thin & I think I would have to remove all of the metal (completely destroying the tube) before the springbars would fit. Just not enough metal to work with. I'm not sure if this is a situation you've experienced with your low-profile case, but with my Silix one, I cannot re-install the original factory bracelet, as it was held in place by severely modified/bent springbars, which got chucked out long ago. This is why my vintage sub has the modern end-links: That is the only bracelet end-links which would fit onto the case... Yes, mine arrived the same way. The Silix watch is a POS & I knew that when I ordered it. But since I only needed the case, which was going to be seriously modified anyway, the bent springbars that came fitted (which were to be replaced with the correct 2mm gens) were not a problem. The reason for the bent springbars is that the end links they use were not made to fit this watch. This is fairly common with reps, because they use the cheapest off-the-shelf parts they have handy at the factory to reduce costs to Walmart levels & just make them fit. Of course, this also reduces quality to a similar level. I'd be interested to see if one of these bracelets would fit to the case, as I haven't drilled the lugs, but given the other situation, I'm concerned about if it would actually fit... Actually, as it is, the Yuki bracelet should fit your Silix case perfectly (assuming there is not too much variation in the manufacturing process - always a potential issue with aftermarket parts), because it comes with small lug holes to fit the thin aftermarket springbars. As long as you are aware that the small lug holes are a dead give-away, I would definitely order 1 of these bracelets right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Yes, mine arrived the same way. The Silix watch is a POS & I knew that when I ordered it. But since I only needed the case, which was going to be seriously modified anyway, the bent springbars that came fitted (which were to be replaced with the correct 2mm gens) were not a problem. The reason for the bent springbars is that the end links they use were not made to fit this watch. This is fairly common with reps, because they use the cheapest off-the-shelf parts they have handy at the factory to reduce costs to Walmart levels & just make them fit. Of course, this also reduces quality to a similar level. I'm glad to hear that it wasn't just my watch which had the bent springbars, that certainly makes me feel more comfortable about installing a different bracelet I've still got the mid-70s end links which were fitted to the vintage sub, I'm planning on using on a future watch, either a Tudor Sub project, or a 1655, but I haven't quite decided which. I think most likely a Tudor project, as I love the Snowflake dial in my Project NATO (I'm just not so keen on the NATO strap) so I think a Tudor Sub (on SS) would get some good wrist time and be a good combination of parts:) Actually, as it is, the Yuki bracelet should fit your Silix case perfectly (assuming there is not too much variation in the manufacturing process - always a potential issue with aftermarket parts), because it comes with small lug holes to fit the thin aftermarket springbars. As long as you are aware that the small lug holes are a dead give-away, I would definitely order 1 of these bracelets right away. Thanks for the recommendation, I might well consider adding one to my 'to buy' list. I know I want to install an MY 'coin-edge' bezel to the watch, I guess a 'period correct' bracelet would also be a good addition, and a little abuse vintaging should blend it in with the rest of the case Out of curiosity, when you had the lug holes drilled, did you just enlarge the hole overall, or was it done 'off-center' to re-position the hole for better end-link compatibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Out of curiosity, when you had the lug holes drilled, did you just enlarge the hole overall, or was it done 'off-center' to re-position the hole for better end-link compatibility? I just enlarged the exiting hole. The original hole is only off-center when the wrong end links are fitted (as was the case for the Silix). End links are made to fit a specific case (or set of cases) & lug hole position. As I recall, the ROLS176 case I used for my initial 6542 project had '6542' etched between 1 set of lugs & '6538' etched between the opposite set of lugs. So, while the case was designed for 1 set of end links (when it was being used as a GMT), it ended up getting another set forced onto it when the case was assembled as a Cartier Sub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 I just enlarged the exiting hole. The original hole is only off-center when the wrong end links are fitted (as was the case for the Silix). End links are made to fit a specific case (or set of cases) & lug hole position. As I recall, the ROLS176 case I used for my initial 6542 project had '6542' etched between 1 set of lugs & '6538' etched between the opposite set of lugs. So, while the case was designed for 1 set of end links (when it was being used as a GMT), it ended up getting another set forced onto it when the case was assembled as a Cartier Sub In that case, I think I might be tempted to try the bracelet with the case as it is, rather than enlarging the existing holes. That's interesting about the case etchings on yours, as on mine, it has 16110 at one end, and R863698 at the other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 In that case, I think I might be tempted to try the bracelet with the case as it is, rather than enlarging the existing holes. Well, if you want to use the Yuki bracelet, as it is currently, you have no choice but to leave the lug holes small. While small lug holes are an indicator of a rep, the riveted bracelet that most reps come with is a far more obvious indicator. So if I were choosing between the 2 poisons, I would definitely opt for the Yuki bracelet with small lug holes. Later, if we figure out a reliable way to enlarge the end link tubes, you can always drill out your lugs & fit the proper 2mm springbars. That's interesting about the case etchings on yours, as on mine, it has 16110 at one end, and R863698 at the other... When I ordered the 1st ROLS176, it was the only Sub with the proper low profile case. However, some time afterwards, a number of their other Subs were relisted with similar dimensions (& pics). Both of the ROLS176s I got (the 2nd purchased several months after the 1st) had the same 2 model numbers between the lugs. So you may have gotten 1 of the other Subs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Well, if you want to use the Yuki bracelet, as it is currently, you have no choice but to leave the lug holes small. While small lug holes are an indicator of a rep, the riveted bracelet that most reps come with is a far more obvious indicator. So if I were choosing between the 2 poisons, I would definitely opt for the Yuki bracelet with small lug holes. Later, if we figure out a reliable way to enlarge the end link tubes, you can always drill out your lugs & fit the proper 2mm springbars. I agree, definitely the lesser of two evils to go with the Yuki bracelet and case 'as is', as at least the quality of the bracelet, will compensate for the hole size, rather than the hole size trying to compensate for a less accurate bracelet When I ordered the 1st ROLS176, it was the only Sub with the proper low profile case. However, some time afterwards, a number of their other Subs were relisted with similar dimensions (& pics). Both of the ROLS176s I got (the 2nd purchased several months after the 1st) had the same 2 model numbers between the lugs. So you may have gotten 1 of the other Subs. That might well be the situation, if I recall, I ordered mine when Silix first made the offer of a group buy for reduced price on them. The watch received was the incorrect dial variant, but in time, the watch has certainly proven a valuable addition to my collection, in that it allowed me to get into the vintage aesthetic and modification... I really need to find my camera, as I want to get some photos of the vintaging I've done to the NATO Snowflake's bezel insert. Very subtle, and not in the same league as my previous abuse, but this time, with small 'impact marks' (created with the edge of a screwdriver rested against the insert, and then tapped on the top) in line with the scratches on the crystal. The effect I was aiming for, was occasional 'accidental damage', rather than decades of aging or significant 'wear and tear', so I'm really keen to get the photos up to get some feedback on the project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 UPDATE - I just heard from DW & he says these 7206 bracelets have been available for at least 2 years. I am not sure why no one ever made an official announcement here, but better late than never. I have also been discussing the springbar issue with Yuki & they agree that the factory made a mistake, which they have agreed to correct in the next production run. The only problem is that they need to sell out of the current stock before they can make more. But, hopefully, this will eventually get resolved & we will then have an accurate 7206 available in our vintage bracelet arsenal. And maybe they will do some 19mm 7205s as well (think 62xx Daytona). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Don't forget the age old trick of drilling partway through each lug from the outside in, to give the visual perception of big yawning lugholes, with their inner edges remaining small so the undersized springbars don't flop around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyberetta Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Glad to hear that DW confirmed my "story" about the bands being on the market for a few years now. I also have one in the 19mm version with no band number markings on it, but with 557 endlinks. This is also a stretch band and I think they might be made by the same source, but the endlinks might be a little larger for the gen spring bars. I like these oyster stretch bands, as they feel more comfortable when you wrist swells a little on a hot day. I had not seen any of the replica stretch style oyster bands for Rolex before and that is what made me decide to purchase them. I have the 19mm on a DW Daytona and the 7206 on a Tudor sub. I purchased the same bracelet about a year and a half ago from a friend in Singapore. It is scary close to the gen, with the exception of the spring bar issue. I am fine with the 1.5 spring bars and have used it for a year now with no loss in spring action! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 I have the 19mm on a DW Daytona and the 7206 on a Tudor sub. As far as I know, the stretch bracelets were only available until the mid-60s (due to spring problems & the likelihood of the bracelet being easily yanked off the owner's wrist - a problem I have experienced myself more than once), so most Daytonas sold with rivet bracelets would have been non-stretch. At least, the combination of Daytona & stretch rivet is rare enough that I have never seen 1. But, then, that may be due more to the small number of stretch bracelets that remained serviceable over the years rather than to any conscious marketing efforts by Rolex to avoid that particular combination. If you happen to remember or locate the source of the 19mm Oyster, please let me know. In the meantime, can you post some good, clear pics of your Daytona with the bracelet? If possible, shots of all sides, includes macros of the clasp markings. I want to check around to see if someone can source them for us. Thanks Indy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Don't forget the age old trick of drilling partway through each lug from the outside in, to give the visual perception of big yawning lugholes, with their inner edges remaining small so the undersized springbars don't flop around. That is an option for standard rep cases, but not for gens, Yuki/NDtrading or already drilled-out frankens. The thin 'bars just rattle around inside the lug hole, plus they do not look right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flex Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 The font on the 6263 bezel is totally wrong......your Jap one is much better and closer to the gen MK 4 service bezel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 The font on the 6263 bezel is totally wrong......your Jap one is much better and closer to the gen MK 4 service bezel. Flex - Which Jap bezel are you referring to? I only have DW's (good, but the '1 1 0' is spaced too far apart) & Yuki's (which gets the '110' right, but has less accurate printing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flex Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 the bezel that came on your honpo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 the bezel that came on your honpo... Oh, that 1. I agree, but Honpo's watch is a 6239 (steel bezel) & the OP's watch is a 6263 (black plastic insert bezel) Even though they all get the number '4' wrong (should have a flattened top) & the number '200' is often slightly smaller than the rest of the numbers, the steel bezels seem to be of generally better quality than the plastic bezels (the steel bezels I get from DW are the same as Honpo's). I guess it is easier to engrave fonts on steel than it is to print them (correctly) on plastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flex Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Freddy, the honpo you bought came with a bakelite bezel orginally.. Flex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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