So who was making amzaing gen like rep subs in 1998?

[cht]

This dial, case, crown, etc look amazing, but Rolex claimed it was fake, except for a gen movement.

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=msg&th=955348&rid=0#msg_3267079

[lanikai]

No pics..only really conjecture without the proof???

Maybe the dial was gen.. dunno without some pics..

[alligoat]

I think the watch may be a franken- 16803 (TT)case, and everything else is ss. The dial looks OK, don't know about the case...

The last guy, Submariner, said service the watch and go on, I agree with that. Getting a lawyer involved would very likely be a waste of money.

[cht]

No pics..only really conjecture without the proof???

Maybe the dial was gen.. dunno without some pics..

What kind of pics are you wanting?

Do you not believe his story?

The pics he posted of his watch look gen to me, but, as he states, Rolex claims EVERYTHING was counterfeit with the exception of the movement.

[Guest techlogik]

Hey, at least he got a Gen movement! That is the heart. He can piece together a real nice watch with that thing for much less than the cost there were going to charge him!

[Katerchen]

Ive read the whole thread TZ now interesting

I am far away from beeing an expert on Rlx models and reps

but in that case id like also to hear what our "Experts"

say about Rlx-Reps back than in 1999 and if this watch

(in TZ thread) could have been a particular rep

of a source known to oldschool members?

Reason i choose to say something here is because of an

assumption to this rep and why i dont believe this watch

to be necessarily of CN make or assembled in CN...

What some members stated inside this thread reminded me of an

incident i experienced back in '99:

Never having seen or touched a thing as a replica-watch before,

a co-worker of mine proffered some counterfeit watches to

me asking if i would be interested in getting one.

He had some rlx, breitling and tags inside a box.

This guy had some work experience abroad in mid 90s

because he was selling and installing air conditioning units

mainly in saudi arabia (dubai) and asia.

I guess it was Electrolux but dont blame me im not sure...

The watches looked good to me, price was cheap so

i choose to pick up my first rep - a white dialed quartz

TAG chrono. Having so many questions about where he got them

bla bla whatever, i decided to have a cold beer and talk

with him after work.

So, this guy told me that he got his watches mainly from

dubai (doesnt mean they were necessarily made there)

and also told me about gold market, jewelers , gen and rep

rolexes in Dubai and that he would NEVER buy a Rlx from there

even if someone would give him $$$ as a present to buy...

I said why? And this is where the "tale" beginns.

He said (and this is exactly what this guy on TZ wrote)

that for some watchmakers in Dubai it aint no big thing

in getting a genuine Rlx movement and letting the case

of the watch/bracelet etc. replicate as close to gen as can

be and than sell the "franken" watch as a gen one, with papers,

box, stickers etc. etc. I asked further and he said, this is

mainly the case for Solid-Gold Rlx replicas.

He also did tell me about some cases where a watchmaker

couldnt confirm that a watch was counterfeit because of

gen movement and good overall replicated (or aftermarket??)

case etc. and they first heard that the watch IS counterfeit

when they returned or send it to Rlx headquarters for Service

He said he did saw some of these watches in Dubai in person

but never bought or intended to sell something like this

for a profit. I asked him about whether these watches where

produced/replicated also in arabia but he couldnt confirm or

disclaim that it wasnt like that! He just said that he suposses

especially the gold ones to be of arabia/dubai make.

Is anybody maybe of the oldschool members down here also familiar

with things like that or was it just a "tell-tale"??

If things like this did really happen - maybe we got a case of a few

"high grade" non-CN frankens produced in the orient on the market?!

Regards

George

[By-Tor]

I disagree. The watch doesn't look gen at all. You can see it immediately from the crystal/rehaut shape, lugs and crown guards. WM9 Sub is the only rep that has nailed the rehaut profile.

It's a nice rep though... this rep could have "TW best roots" as those have been in production for a LONG time.

[alligoat]

I'll give you the fat lugs, B-T. But I can't see the cg's very well, insert is OK, 16800 rehaut is shallower than a 16610. I just don't know about the case, but the dial looks decent in spite of the bad pic. Swiss- T<25 on the dial.

It wouldn't surprise me if it were a rep case- we've seen some decent older ones over the years and putting a 3035 movement in one isn't that hard. Heck, I even saw a noob case with a 3035 movement in it a year ago on ebay. F520117! And some lucky twit probably bought it!

It all still goes back to "Buy the seller".

[By-Tor]

@alligoat: I'm not talking about the rehaut depth, but the crystal/rehaut shape. The same thing that instantly gives SSD away. But it's other way around on that rep... Dweller has very thick rehaut from the front... the rep doesn't.

This actually looks like the old TW Best Sub from the front. There's an extra "pleat"... it's nothing like the gen smooth shape. The watch probably has gen parts... the dial looks good (if you can determine that from the awful photo).

The cg's seem to be "curved down" too much as well.

[Katerchen]

hmm...

so you guys think this could be TW best make...

where these available back 99/98?

just curious

B/R

[alligoat]

yeh, I figured you were referring to rehaut width and the more I look at it, I agree, it's just too wide.

And like you say, cg's may be too short

fake case, gen movement , dial, insert and maybe crown/tube.

MBw's were around back in the 90's and they're from Taiwan, And so I'd figure the TWB's were also

[TeeJay]

Sorry, but I just had to laugh at that

I couldn't care less if it was real or fake, as I think this is a fantastic example of perception.

Of course, if he did get ripped off, I hope Trading Standards can do something about it

[By-Tor]

Whenever it was originally from, this must have been an exceptional franken back in its day.

But indistinguishable from the gen? Absolutely not... the "tells" are clear.

WM9 is the only Rolex rep manufacturer that has ever nailed it. Here's v1 next to my gen GMT. It had other flaws but it was the first rep that had an amazing rehaut.

The new version of Noob Explorer is superb as well. All other Rolex reps... no cigar. They simply look fundamentally wrong... including that TZ watch.

[Katerchen]

getting more and more interesting rite now...

this is 10 years ago.

And what about if this rep was somehow "put together"

from different reps or factories as this watch is a franken?

I suggest this one wasnt "out of the box" from the beginning...

[panerai153]

I'm sure there were folks putting together "Franken" Rolex watches back then, they were selling fake omega Seamaster 300's with genuine Omega movements, sometimes not the correct movement, sometimes a movement made from parts from several models, but if you weren't very dilligent, a quick look inside and it was "looks fine to me, that's a genuine Omega movement". I bought one years ago, it looked perfectly normal?, but over time, i began to suspect it wasn't all genuine. The dial had a few minor "tells", and the caseback was worn down (probably ground down and repolished to make it look worn) The bezel/insert was really crappy, so I bought a NOS as a replacement. Much to my dismay, when I took the old bezel off, the little Ball bearings that are the "Click" mechanism weren't there. Not lost, no place for them. Of course when I tried to put the new bezel on, it wouldn't fit. I kept it for years, finally sold it to a guy who knew it was a fake, as I disclosed everything about it, even opened the caseback to let him see the movement, and showed him the problems. I took a bath on that one, but it taught me a valuable lesson, look before you leap.

This Rolex deal was obviously a case of a young unaware buyer who finally had a few nickels in his jeans, and wanted a Rolex. He said in his posts, he only knew that the hand was supposed to sweep and not jump like a quartz. I'm sure he never even looked at the invoice from Ashford, although their invoice may or may not have had the correct model and serial number. He never removed the bracelet, so he had no way of checking the serial and model numbers.He had no way of knowing that this was a Franken, until Rolex dropped the bomb on him. Had he had access to a forum like this or good high quality photos from good reference books, he could have compared his watch to the examples, or posted photos. A close examination and comparison would have revealed the incorrect too short case guards, the rehault that looks like it's made of pot metal and the inncorrect and obviously fake end links that don't match the fake bracelet.

More than likely what happened here is Ashford got hooked on this watch as a trade-in, that was signed off as genuine by and inexperienced Ashford watch repair person. Ashford cut their losses by passing it along. I'm sure had the guy been smart and taken the watch to an experienced watchmaker who could tell it was "put together" Ashford would have claimed innocence by virture of the genuine movement, and exchanged it or refunded his money. Now unfortunately, "The train is gone". He can take it to a good Rolex repair person, have it serviced, and wear it with out shame. That's what I would do. Or he can do what some folks do with no qualms at all, put it in a Rolex box with a handful of papers and put it on Ebay as a genuine Rolex sub. Passing it along to the next"mullet"

Just my Dos Centavos

Arthur

[TeeJay]

More than likely what happened here is Ashford got hooked on this watch as a trade-in, that was signed off as genuine by and inexperienced Ashford watch repair person. Ashford cut their losses by passing it along. I'm sure had the guy been smart and taken the watch to an experienced watchmaker who could tell it was "put together" Ashford would have claimed innocence by virture of the genuine movement, and exchanged it or refunded his money. Now unfortunately, "The train is gone". He can take it to a good Rolex repair person, have it serviced, and wear it with out shame. That's what I would do. Or he can do what some folks do with no qualms at all, put it in a Rolex box with a handful of papers and put it on Ebay as a genuine Rolex sub. Passing it along to the next"mullet"

Just my Dos Centavos

Arthur

I think you hit the nail on the head there, and your comment about shame ties back to my comment on perception. Assuming everything in his account is honest, then for the past decade, he's been going around wearing what he thought, was a genuine Rolex, and if anyone asked "Is that a real Rolex?" he probably said "yes,". Not a deliberate falsehood, as he would have thought he was telling the truth, but, of course, it was a rep all along, so the only difference between him telling someone it was real, and someone who knowingly bought a rep and tries to pass it off as a gen (possibly equally successfully) is the knowledge of the owner and their perception of the truth. It would be interesting to know how/if the owners perception of the watch (as a watch, not as an investment) changed upon finding out that it was actually a rep, and if the financial aspect could be overlooked, and it was still appreciated as the watch which had obviously given a decade of loyal service

[panerai153]

I think you hit the nail on the head there, and your comment about shame ties back to my comment on perception. Assuming everything in his account is honest, then for the past decade, he's been going around wearing what he thought, was a genuine Rolex, and if anyone asked "Is that a real Rolex?" he probably said "yes,". Not a deliberate falsehood, as he would have thought he was telling the truth, but, of course, it was a rep all along, so the only difference between him telling someone it was real, and someone who knowingly bought a rep and tries to pass it off as a gen (possibly equally successfully) is the knowledge of the owner and their perception of the truth. It would be interesting to know how/if the owners perception of the watch (as a watch, not as an investment) changed upon finding out that it was actually a rep, and if the financial aspect could be overlooked, and it was still appreciated as the watch which had obviously given a decade of loyal service

It sort of sounded from the thread that he was so bummed about the deal and discovering that his watch was not a "Real" Rolex, he could never be happy about it again, it suddenly wasn't a ROLEX, it was just a watch with a Rolex motor! I'm sure the decade of loyal service went out the window the moment he got that package back from the RSC with his unserviced watch and the rejection notice. Too bad, because he still has a watch that's as good as it gets, just needs a service. He will never be happy with this one ever again.too bad.

Arthur

[TeeJay]

It sort of sounded from the thread that he was so bummed about the deal and discovering that his watch was not a "Real" Rolex, he could never be happy about it again, it suddenly wasn't a ROLEX, it was just a watch with a Rolex motor! I'm sure the decade of loyal service went out the window the moment he got that package back from the RSC with his unserviced watch and the rejection notice. Too bad, because he still has a watch that's as good as it gets, just needs a service. He will never be happy with this one ever again.too bad.

Arthur

I agree, that was the impression I got as well, hence the point about perspective, as in reality, the watch was not suddenly less real when he received it back, than it ever had been, it was just his perception of it which shifted.

[Demsey]

And what if a noob registered and posted today;

"Hey, love the site and have been spending the whole day with the 'Search', but haven't found out anything conclusive. Please excuse my noob question. I have a genuine Rolex calibre 3135. Is there any replica Sub case out there (CN, TWB, MBK etc.) that you guys know of that will accept the movement? Thanks in advance."

A resounding; "No!".

How they engineered the 'fake' case to accept the movement with regard to the lateral position of the winding crown to the case (all our ETA and clone motors position the crown too low with regard, the someday remedy may indeed be the 1:1, or close to it, copy of the 3135) is the intriguing part. If it is indeed a counterfeit case, not a bastardized 16613 to 16610 situation, there is no way that case came from a 'run' of 1998 replicas, from any factory. They would all have to have been machined as 'one offs'. Interesting....................

[panerai153]

And what if a noob registered and posted today;

"Hey, love the site and have been spending the whole day with the 'Search', but haven't found out anything conclusive. Please excuse my noob question. I have a genuine Rolex calibre 3135. Is there any replica Sub case out there (CN, TWB, MBK etc.) that you guys know of that will accept the movement? Thanks in advance."

A resounding; "No!".

How they engineered the 'fake' case to accept the movement with regard to the lateral position of the winding crown to the case (all our ETA and clone motors position the crown too low with regard, the someday remedy may indeed be the 1:1, or close to it, copy of the 3135) is the intriguing part. If it is indeed a counterfeit case, not a bastardized 16613 to 16610 situation, there is no way that case came from a 'run' of 1998 replicas, from any factory. They would all have to have been machined as 'one offs'. Interesting....................

Was it a foregone conclusion the case was fake? The RSC said it was a TT case with s/s bezel, crown and bracelet. I'm not sure from the posts they were conclusive that this was a counterfeit case. The other possibility was a yuki type case that someone was building. I don't know when those "replacement" cases made their debut, but I bet they have been around for 10+ years. Just like over the years a thriving aftermarket has developed for all other Rolex parts, crowns,tubes, bracelets, crystals, dials, hands, bezels, inserts, why wouldn't someone out there be producing cases as well.

Lots of folks bought Rolex watches over the years as an everyday using watch, they weren't WIS, they were just everyday folks who could afford a little bit nicer watch. I bought my first Rolex about 3 years out of college in about 68-69, a 1500 datejust. I wore it for a couple of years and then bought my first Sub. The datejust was a little too "Dressy" for work on the farm. I bought a 1680 brand new for 500.00 dollars. Long story short, if during those years, a watch was a watch. It was for telling time and date. It wasn't a status symbol, at least the s/s Subs weren't.

Myself, like most folks who live far away from a RSC took our watches in to be serviced by anyone who was a "Rolex" watchmaker. This may have meant the fellow had been trained by Rolex, maybe he took the Rolex certification exams, or it just meant that he had a few manuals and the tools and by experience got proficient with Rolex watches. More than likely if the customer was a little budget conscious, the watchmaker offered him the choice of aftermarket parts, because they were cheaper, or the watchmaker wasn't on the Rolex list to buy parts. It

[cht]

How they engineered the 'fake' case to accept the movement with regard to the lateral position of the winding crown to the case (all our ETA and clone motors position the crown too low with regard, the someday remedy may indeed be the 1:1, or close to it, copy of the 3135) is the intriguing part.

This is where I am confused as well.

as far as we know, the WM9 V3 case is all the rage and we are lead to believe it is such a technological feat in rep construction to have the winding crown in the correct position, and the year is 2010 now.

Who is the watch maker that sells kits to make a daytona, (with cases, dials, etc,) will engrave serial numbers on them, and even sells plates for zenith's movements to make them look like the ones in the old Daytona's?

His cases would have the correct crown tube position, would they not? And how long has he been in the business?

I am never ceased to be amazed by the level of knowledge by the members of this board, truly outstanding.

[Demsey]

Was it a foregone conclusion the case was fake? The RSC said it was a TT case with s/s bezel, crown and bracelet. I'm not sure from the posts they were conclusive that this was a counterfeit case. The other possibility was a yuki type case that someone was building. I don't know when those "replacement" cases made their debut, but I bet they have been around for 10+ years. Just like over the years a thriving aftermarket has developed for all other Rolex parts, crowns,tubes, bracelets, crystals, dials, hands, bezels, inserts, why wouldn't someone out there be producing cases as well.

Yeah, I agree Arthur, but the info from the original poster on TZ, who posted the Customer Invoice that merely stated the watch was 'counterfeit as defined by law' (I'd like to explore that further, would make an interesting read, like our "How far is Franken, before it becomes gen?" threads)

We only have his 'word' that he spoke to RSC personnel and they confirmed that the case was gen, and for that matter the movement was too. Like 'lanikai' states; there's not enough hard evidence here in *pics* to really get into it. Too many 'unkowns'.

I was bascially going on what I do know as solid. The opinions of these two guys;

I disagree. The watch doesn't look gen at all. You can see it immediately from the crystal/rehaut shape, lugs and crown guards. WM9 Sub is the only rep that has nailed the rehaut profile.

It wouldn't surprise me if it were a rep case- we've seen some decent older ones over the years and putting a 3035 movement in one isn't that hard. Heck, I even saw a noob case with a 3035 movement in it a year ago on ebay. F520117! And some lucky twit probably bought it!

Especially these words;

It wouldn't surprise me if it were a rep case- we've seen some decent older ones over the years and putting a 3035 movement in one isn't that hard. Heck, I even saw a noob case with a 3035 movement in it a year ago on ebay. F520117!

I suppose my interest just echos 'cht' here; If a rep case that would accept a gen Rolex movement (I think, not sure, that the WM9 V3 has correct stem placement because of the 'woman's' calibre 2671 (?) [smaller, slimmer] used) could be made, then why isn't there, hasn't there been all along, a known and trusted source a la` Yuki or Hont? And then why don't By-Tor, Ubi, JoJo, Alligoat, and Freddy have one? Aside crown guards and rehaut, the biggest tell of the Rolex sports' has been the position of the winding crown to the lateral line of the case. That has to be a [censored] of a 'mod'.