blancheunal Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Don't get angry. I don't say you are marginalizing muslims as at this very moment you are talking to a muslim girl I am sure you are a very nice person. But, you should live it to understand it. Everytime I go to a foreign country, I feel it. The officers who give the visa, the customs etc. become suspicious as soon as they understand that I am from Turkey, although I am an ordinary tourist. 10 days ago, a friend of mine went to USA and she said how she felt humiliated when the officer interrogated her about the real !!! purpose of her journey. People never believe me when I say I'm Turkish. They try to speak Spanish or Italian to me, because they already have an image of muslim girl in their mind and I dont't fit in. Because I don't have a dark complexion or I'm not wearing a scarf and a long dress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwai02 Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Is there is any such thing as a non-violent religion? All religions have extremists who engage in violence in the name of religion. Whether now or 1000+ years ago.. either in defense of said religion or as part of a "crusade" It just goes with the turf, I guess! buddhism! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Padge Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) Don't worry I am not angry What that experience describes to me is standard security profiling. During the years of terrorist activity by the IRA, tight controls and checks were put in place for people that fit the description of the criminals they were looking for. It is unfortunate for the people who get stopped and embarrassing no doubt. It would however be foolhardy to ignore practiced procedures, which in the case of the UK have been in practice for many decades for similar terrorist activity. Again I state that anger should not be directed at the people or countries carrying out the searches, but at the fanatical terrorists which have caused these searches to become common practice. Edited September 17, 2006 by Mickey Padge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blancheunal Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 yes we ALL HATE terrorists. but I'm still curious about what comes to your mind when you think of a muslim girl, say it sincerely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythingape Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 "Are those stiff nipples or detonators?" Just kidding How can you tell if a girl is muslim or not? I spent 2 weeks in turkey this summer, and I can't really say the women looked any more "muslim" than most other women of the world.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Padge Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Well there are many different types of Muslim girls . I try not to have any preconceptions about people, as they just cloud the situation. I worked with a Muslim girl for a few years, she was a cashier where I work. She was a great laugh and fun to be around, but I would not call here a serious Muslim. She did have many family issues and I thought she was put apon by her family in many ways, particularly by some of the men in her family. Another young Muslim who was a cashier at work was a horrible person. She was about 16-17 very young, but had an enormous hatred of Jews, an opinion I think installed into here by older relatives. She stole credit cards from two fellow employees and was caught using them in sport shops in the next Town. The second girl was by far the more religous, but also a much worse person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blancheunal Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I see. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe when you say (not you specifically dont get angry again) "muslim" and "muslim nation" you mean "arabs"??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Padge Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) I really can't speak for other forum members, but to be a Muslim you can be any colour or nationality, no? EDIT: As mentioned earlier, I have not got angry Edited September 17, 2006 by Mickey Padge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blancheunal Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Another young Muslim who was a cashier at work was a horrible person. She was about 16-17 very young, but had an enormous hatred of Jews, an opinion I think installed into here by older relatives. Terrorists bombed a synagogue here in Turkey and many people died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I wish I could add more to what is becoming a deep conversation. All I can add is I have British muslim friends and some Irish catholic friends. My irish catholic friends are more fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Padge Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 There is no negotiating with terrorists. killing innocent people will never EVER bring people round the terrorists view point. Their actions seek to cause divisions in communities and cultures worldwide, and further the distrust between people with different backgrounds and beliefs. We can't let them succeed in ther goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blancheunal Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) I really can't speak for other forum members, but to be a Muslim you can be any colour or nationality, no? EDIT: As mentioned earlier, I have not got angry Yes, of course. But I don't want to be understood as a member of another nation either. For those who don't know: Turks are basically asian, from central asia. Their ancestors were nomads. Some groups settled in central asia (such as hungarians, turkmens, azerbaijan etc. some member states of the former soviet union) and some came to anatolia and thus they were divided into different nations and religions of course. There are many jewish people who are turkish citizens and I assure you that turks do not hate jewish, on the contrary they are pretty happy to be here Edited September 17, 2006 by blancheunal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I wish I could add more to what is becoming a deep conversation. All I can add is I have British muslim friends and some Irish catholic friends. My irish catholic friends are more fun! It's not their fault. I mean the Irish: they're born that way. And welcome to RWG, Blancheunel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Padge Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Never for a minute would I suggest such a thing were true either. Good and bad people come from all walks of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blancheunal Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) Now I can sleep as we settled the matter. It was a pleasure to talk to you, I hope we can soon talk about replicas too, because I wanna buy a datejust so bad Thanks ryyannon ! Goodnight to you all... Edited September 17, 2006 by blancheunal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Did someone who actually speaks German and hear the speach in German respond to this thread yet? Q:Did he say something offending or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blancheunal Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 (edited) "I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on-- perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara-- by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was probably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than the responses of the learned Persian. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship of the three Laws: the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Qur'an. In this lecture I would like to discuss only one point-- itself rather marginal to the dialogue itself-- which, in the context of the issue of faith and reason, I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue. In the seventh conversation edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the jihad (holy war). The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: There is no compulsion in religion. It is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur’an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the “Book” and the “infidels,” he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words: Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached. The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death.... The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: "For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry. As far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we find ourselves faced with a dilemma which nowadays challenges us directly. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true? I believe that here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God. Modifying the first verse of the Book of Genesis, John began the prologue of his Gospel with the words: In the beginning was the logos. This is the very word used by the emperor: God acts with logos. " This is a partial quotation. You'll find the complete text at: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474 Edited September 18, 2006 by blancheunal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 The entire LECTURE OF THE HOLY FATHER can be found here in PDF format: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf It is not clear to me exactly where he has gone wrong or insulted muslims.....maybe he is insulting by implying that muslims are not ruled by reason and that maybe neither should (are) we. The suggestion that GOD is beyond reason (= not reasonable?) was the popes entrance to dialogue? or did the pope suggest quite the contrary? The papas LOGOS seems a little veiled to me. It seems this speech is more for an academic audience than people at large and certainly this PAPA is more of the professor type than someone well versed in talking to the common man or the masses. He seemed to be so highbrowed and lofty in this speech (in trying to impress the professors at the university?) than he has simply outmanouvered himself g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwai02 Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 All I can say is that people are too sensitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blancheunal Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 It seems this speech is more for an academic audience than people at large and certainly this PAPA is more of the professor type than someone well versed in talking to the common man or the masses. He seemed to be so highbrowed and lofty in this speech (in trying to impress the professors at the university?) than he has simply outmanouvered himself g. oh yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 All I can say is that people are too sensitive. ..or too insensitive (as in lacking in sensitivity to the feelings or circumstances of others; unfeeling.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkerouac Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 All too often it is in some peoples' interests to deliberately misunderstand or misrepresent comments such as the Pope's. It happens internationally, with the radical mullahs, for example, and it can happen within countries, such as when US conservatives misrepresent liberal positions, and vice versa. It's hard to sift through all the misrepresentation and posturing to get to the truth, even when the truth is not hidden in a dense academic speech such as the Pope's. Even reading a newspaper or watching a 30-minute newscast requires a very critical attitude, not unlike when people scrutinize new reps for the tiniest of discrepancies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 not unlike when people scrutinize new reps for the tiniest of discrepancies. Now there is a comparsion I can understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 (edited) In the past all religions have been forced onto others through violence. There's the rub......IN THE PAST.....christianity or any of the other Ibrahamic religions have abandoned violence in favour of proselytisation. @blancheunal. Don't get angry. I don't say you are marginalizing muslims as at this very moment you are talking to a muslim girl I am sure you are a very nice person. But, you should live it to understand it. Everytime I go to a foreign country, I feel it. The officers who give the visa, the customs etc. become suspicious as soon as they understand that I am from Turkey, although I am an ordinary tourist. 10 days ago, a friend of mine went to USA and she said how she felt humiliated when the officer interrogated her about the real !!! purpose of her journey. People never believe me when I say I'm Turkish. They try to speak Spanish or Italian to me, because they already have an image of muslim girl in their mind and I dont't fit in. Because I don't have a dark complexion or I'm not wearing a scarf and a long dress. The reason you feel this is brought about by the religion you follow.....which is a religion of abrogation....subjugation by force and intolerance of any other religion...brought about by an evil warlord 1400+ years ago...who subverted the religion and set in tablets of stone...his legacy...a legacy of murder and territorial conquest....and the presentation of the IMMUTABLE status of Muhammed as the ONLY true prophet.....none before or after can claim to be the same.....what an affront to ALLAH......that a mere prophet can dictate his own status and have it maintained for eternity. Even amongst Islamic followers....there is intolerance and persecution...Wahabbi Arabs see themselves as the only TRUE followers of Islam...all others are seen as infidels. Personally I am fed up with the apologists for Islam....who can only utter one chant.....Islam is a religion of peace when it clearly isn't.....one only has to look at the relevant Sura in the Quuran and examine the Sira and Hadith to determine exactly what it is.....and it shall not flourish.....! incidentally ...your observation that..." surah 2, 256 reads: There is no compulsion in religion." That is abrogated by the passage found in 9:5, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." and sura 5:33: "For those who do not submit to Allah their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land". Islamic activists almost completely fail to reveal to non Islamic folowers......this key doctrine.....they hide the fact that previous conciliatory passages have been abrogated and dismissed for over 1300 years. When non Islamic apologist / followers find out about it ......they challenge these abrogations by claiming that such writings are misinterpreted or that we misapply their impact. Muslim apologists would rather gloss over them and clean up Islam's image by referring to the earlier abrogated "Meccan" passages that preach patience and tolerance. Spokespeople for Islam.....scholars and clerics.....deliberately hide or delete "Medinan"..... passages that advocate for the killing and maiming of 'infidels'. When you hear someone explain Islam........laying claim that the the earlier and more more peaceful Sura are dominant in Islamic philosophy........you have to decide between two options. Either the apologist is entirely ignorant of true Islamic doctrine, or he/she is delivering officially sanctioned Islamic deceit. Edited September 18, 2006 by TTK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 The Pope Must Die Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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