Pugwash Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Perhaps you can instead view America's attempts to provide freedom from tyranny as a liberating cause rather than "spreading our beliefs by sword." I would love to be able to hold that view, yet the fact that the US is exceedingly selective about which grannies to protect from which muggers goes against that. Where are you in Nigeria, for instance? Also, the Islamist fundamentalists are merely trying to free the people from the tyranny of an imperialist moral decay, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 The problem is that concepts such as freedom are culturally determined: the fundamentalist Muslim wants the freedom to stone to death an adulterous woman.... The ideals that we commonly accept in New York or Alaska are meaningless elsewhere. Dororthy is having a hard time understanding she's not in Kansas anymore, and that the Yellow Brick Road - albeit paved with good intentions - often turns out to be The Highway to Hell.... (Wow, the old rhetoric machine can still turn out a phrase or two!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 I think this thread is doing just fine simmering alonge at a friendly pace and thus I will go off and wiggle my toes too (like jeff does) but I will be back with my boots in the morning g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Pardon my being blunt, but how is this different than saying "Oh, you only gave 3,000 of your sons and one hundred billion dollars to us last year. It's not enough."? Did you know that American private donations to overseas needs last year was more than the government of Japan gave? That's not corporate giving, that's American private citizens opening their wallets. Unfortunately the world cannot have it both ways. Either we are too involved in other countries affairs or we are not involved enough. One thing America IS good for, is being a target of criticism. The Islamic people don't need to be "freed" from moral decay unless they are enslaved by it. If we were flying over Islamic countries leafletting with Madonna posters and CDs then yes, they would have a legitimate complaint about the tyranny of our spreading moral decay. But nobody is holding a gun to their heads making them watch and listen. It seems to me the answer to that lies with the demand within their own borders. If I don't want my kids to listen to gangsta rap, I don't dynamite recording studios. I educate my kids as to how stupid and dangerous that stuff is. I see where you're coming from and admire your beliefs, but you really need to see it from their point of view, which I doubt is possible. The entire situation boils down to this: Both sides know they're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Pardon my being blunt, but how is this different than saying "Oh, you only gave 3,000 of your sons and one hundred billion dollars to us last year. It's not enough."? It's different because ... well, it's different. I'd never be stupid enough to accuse the US of not doing enough. However, if you can adequately explain why the US (and the coalition of the willing, whatever that means) invaded Iraq, I'll take a different tack. Before you reply, please remove any illusions of me being anti-american from your mind and assume I'm a good friend that just needs it explaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 So, not to simplify this too much, and with tongue firmly in cheek, we saw a bad guy over there in Iraq terrorizing women and children, raping and murdering, filling mass graves, and we put a damn stop to it. So, you ignored all the other countries that do this, and invaded Iraq to help people? So what was all the waffle about WMDs, then? Or the twaddle about supporting Al-Quaeda? If you'd had said at the beginning that it was a humanitarian cause, maybe you'd have got more support from the rest of the world. Instead, you had "God told me to", "He tried to kill ma daddy", WMDs and Terrorists, not one of which was enough for all but your staunchest of allies, and most of which were blatant untruths. I'm all for saving people, but I don't see this as the reason we all went into Iraq on your insistence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nxuan Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 So, not to simplify this too much, and with tongue firmly in cheek, we saw a bad guy over there in Iraq terrorizing women and children, raping and murdering, filling mass graves, and we put a damn stop to it. Unfortunately, in real life the damsel in distress doesn't always kiss the hero on the cheek. Sometimes she uses roadside bombs and nails his butt as he rides out of town. Not everyone wants to be saved. But dang it, we tried. Do you honestly believe that? Was it not because of Iraqi's oil field, or unfinished business of the Bush family, or...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 (you can prove anything with the Internet!) Especially if you use out-of-date and subsequently recanted articles. "I am often asked why we are in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was not responsible for the 9/11 attacks. The answer is that the regime of Saddam Hussein was a clear threat." - George Bush, 2006 CIA say there were no WMDs: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4484237.stm US closes book on Iraq WMD hunt The US chief weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, has said inquiries into weapons of mass destruction in Iraq have "gone as far as feasible". Mr Duelfer also said an official transfer of WMDs to Syria ahead of the Iraq war was not likely. The CIA adviser reported last year that neither expected stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons, nor evidence of recent production had been found. However, he did say Saddam Hussein had wanted to restart WMD programmes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 It would have been better if we (= who support the USA) had decided to put in all efforts and done a proper jobb in Afghanistan then moved on to pressure Iran..unfortunately the iraq thing is making it very difficult to do a proper jobb in Afghanistan and we have lost the moral justification to put the pressure on Iran and Syria...we have by our own silly actions become our own worst enemy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjajh Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 @nanug OK...I grudgingly accept your premise that exemplification is useless in this 'no exit' tragic comedy. But it is kind of nice thinking about love and positive things and wriggling my toes. Back to reality... Americas participation on the world stage has become increasingly hallucinatory and unpredictable, to the point where the U.S. has lost sight as to what it is supposed to be doing in this cess pool of human interaction. I had the less than pleasant opportunity to participate in this on-going Quixotic trajedy 40 years ago in Viet Nam. Lost a lot of good friends and came home to ridicule. Taught me a valuable lesson. People don't take kindly to your imposing your value systems on them. So...I am not about to take another journey into the darkness of the human psyche in some village in Africa, village in the middle east or city in wherever in the name of democracy. I'll sit here... not hating any other human being, wishing everyone the best luck in working out their lives and wiggling my toes in the sand. But...you bring your distorted vlaue systems into my world and hurt those I love and I will cut your balls off and stuff them in your mouth. Isolationist? No...I think I am just like everyone else in this world who has lost his sense of altruism and is going to protect what he believes is important to him at a fundamental level. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 It would have been better if we (= who support the USA) had decided to put in all efforts and done a proper jobb in Afghanistan then moved on to pressure Iran..unfortunately the iraq thing is making it very difficult to do a proper jobb in Afghanistan and we have lost the moral justification to put the pressure on Iran and Syria...we have by our own silly actions become our own worst enemy Some might say that we're in EndTimes - another way of saying that we're at the very end of all systems, and that every hard push in one direction instantaneously produces a counter-reaction in the opposite direction. Like the man said, 'Instant karma.' And the harder you push, the harder you get shoved back in return. Next stop: total gridlock and something rather nasty and Apocalyptic - here, there, more or less everywhere.... If this Doomsday scenario seems plausible, the logical question is, when there are no solutions, what's the solution? I tend towards Nanuq's idea of (trying) to do the good that one can where one is - modestly, patiently, guided by the heart as much as by the head. Jjajh also gave some excellent advice: sit down, relax and watch the parade while wiggling your toes in the warm sand... Beyond that - and I'm aware that it may sound corny or naive - I think love (compassion) is and always was the answer - with no fringe benefits or guaranteed happy end for trying to keep oneself on the path. Some people are really bummed by this vision of things - as for myself, I don't see many viable alternatives. I wonder what you guys think of - and how do you feel - when you're alone with yourselves? If you're like myself - and many of the people I know - do you feel that your life basically consists of making it through from day to day - trying to keep on top of the wave and doing your best not to fall off? A long-term perspective is lacking. Personally, I can barely see beyond tomorrow - when I'm not convinced that tomorrow is never going to come. This doesn't prevent me from acting like I have a future - in terms of doing what needs to be done - but from where I am, it doesn't feel like it used to. Does anyone here really feel that they've got it made - that things are ok both inside and outside of themselves? If so, tell us how you did it, and what gets you through the night.... I don't seriously expect anyone to respond to that, but it's just a way of reiterating that Popes, Presidents and Mullhas are not the answer - if they ever were. "See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly...." In the end, it all comes down to us - you and me and the others: not surprisingly, that's the direction this thread is starting to take, so I just thought I'd add my own spin and rambling 2 cents to the mix..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Lets just wiggle our toes and think what would happen if the pope did the same ....come to think of it I guess thats exactly what the pope is doing most of the time Life is great and getting better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekhunter Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 I think many are missing the point. The impotent U.N. is to blame for much of these problems that the U.S. has right now. When the first Iraq war ended, and we had all of this U.N. backed coalition forces, and the touchy feel good crap of the U.N. standing up to a tyrant junk, the Iraqi government agreed to certian terms when they SURRENDERED. They did not abide by these terms(obviously), and the corrupt U.N. and it's leader Kofi Annan were too busy lining their pockets(son's pocket) on the oil for food scandel. He(Kofi) and the U.N. failed to enforce what they said they would do when we left Saddam in power. The U.N. is a joke, and is a waste of the U.S. taxpayer's money. Do some research and find out who is forking the bill for the U.N. THe rogue nations such as Iran will continue to prove just how impotent the U.N. is, and then it unfortunately falls in the lap of the U.S., when the world cries and says help us we are there. As far as the African nations that are suffering under tyrants, they(the people who are suffering) are always calling for the help of the U.S. Where is the U.N.? Isn't this supposed to be their role? When bullets start to fly, so do they, right out of harms way. Remember, the U.N. had so-called peacekeepers in Lebanon. They are a JOKE! The Russians and Chinese will veto everything worth while on getting tough on the Iranians. I wonder why? What are we to do? Believe them, Ha! Maybe we should have left Saddam in power, and let him rebuild his Nuclear Power Plant that the Isrealis destroyed(for civilian use of course), and like the Iranians, he would be laughing at the world right now. And when he did finally get the WMD's that everyone fears, what would the world and the U.N. do then, cry to the U.S. to do something about it. We nipped it in the bud. I would rather take him out before he got them, then after. I don't care what reason or excuse we did it, he was a evil murdering tyrant that deserved what he got. And if many on this forum are really that naive about these rogue nations, let's see what you have to say when in five years or so, the world gets to see on TV a Nuclear Bomb being rolled down the streets of Tehren with "Death to America and Isreal" written on it in plain english. I can hear it now from all of the anti-American and anti-Bush liberals. Why didn't the U.S. do something about it back then, or the real liberal explanation, maybe we will get what we deserve. It's a cruel world we live in, but I honestly believe that the U.S. with their generosity to the world, are trying to make it a safer and better place. Enough ranting for now. This ought to rattle some cages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 And if many on this forum are really that naive about these rogue nations, let's see what you have to say when in five years or so, the world gets to see on TV a Nuclear Bomb being rolled down the streets of Tehren with "Death to America and Isreal" written on it in plain english. Strawman. Ttry a real example instead of a completely made up and impossible to counter one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 we saw a bad guy over there in Iraq terrorizing women and children, raping and murdering, filling mass graves, and we put a damn stop to it. You got a tongue of silver Bob and I like that but that cheek of yours must be bulging like a tent and I like that even more btw - I grew up on John Wayne. We had a summer home on his shin - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekhunter Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Strawman. Ttry a real example instead of a completely made up and impossible to counter one. The reality of this potential future is a very real one. Let me ask you this my Lion friend, What is the U.N. doing effectively to make the world a safer place? Is that a real and fair question? I hope so, for if you were a fish, I would have caught you many many times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Just a temporary swerve back to the topic.....In earlier posts, we've determined that the Pope was a member of the Hitler Youth (Hitlerjungen) organization - along with Gunther Grass, who's just come out as well - in the last year of the War. Today, certain informed parties are asserting that Benny is actually a Jew, as proved by actual photographic evidence - including a Star of David medallion and a prominent Moshe Dayan eyepatch. Mea culpa, but I couldne't resist posting this extraordinary revelation, as relayed by Yahoo News: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&...64d9d50828dc2e1 It also appeared on the Neo-con-Zionist-Reptilian Conspiracy Mother-Ship Site, 'Little Green Footballs (caution: not for the faint-hearted): http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 What is the U.N. doing effectively to make the world a safer place? Is that a real and fair question? I hope so, for if you were a fish, I would have caught you many many times! You're the one that brought the UN into it. It has absolutely no bearing at any point on the discussion. Nice try, though. I see a lot of hyperbole and rhetoric but no content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 It also appeared on the Neo-con-Zionist-Reptilian Conspiracy Mother-Ship Site, 'Little Green Footballs (caution: not for the faint-hearted): http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ Is that Pope Nelson II or the prominet new goalkeeper for Celtics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekhunter Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 You're the one that brought the UN into it. It has absolutely no bearing at any point on the discussion. Nice try, though. I see a lot of hyperbole and rhetoric but no content. True, just having a little fun fishing. Much like you asking earlier 'what is the U.S. doing in Nigeria'? Just answering your earlier question. I think that is the role of the U.N., but true, it has nothing to do with what the Pope said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 True, just having a little fun fishing. Much like you asking earlier 'what is the U.S. doing in Nigeria'? Just answering your earlier question. I think that is the role of the U.N., but true, it has nothing to do with what the Pope said. If it's the UN's job, then so is Iraq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 It must be so galling for Americans when their truly democratically elected government is not allowed to demonstrate their purely altruistic nature. It's a damn shame the world can't see how selfless this country is in saving the world. These uncivilized savages could not continue as they were. Terrorising their own people under the auspices of the always anti-American dictator Saddam Hussein. Knowing there were no WMDs there, it was the only excuse available to free this enslaved nation. The true solution to the middle east is to carpet bomb and destory all the peoples of that region. Hey just wipe out humanity and there will be no more wars, hunger or anything bad anymore. Is humanity just a stain on this great planet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekhunter Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 I forgot, What Did The Pope Say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 I forgot, What Did The Pope Say? As I remember, it was something like this: (And a-one, and a-two, and a-three): "Hey momma dont you treat me wrong come and love your daddy all night long hey hey alright "See the girl with the diamond ring she knows how to shake that thing alright now darlin' now hey hey hey hey "Tell your momma tell your pa I'm gonna send you back to Arkansas oh yes ma'am you dont do right dont do right "When you see me in misery come on baby see about me now yeah alright alright aww play it boy "See the girl with the red dress on she can do the bird man all night long yeah yeah whatd i say alright "Well tell me what'd i say (yeah) tell me what'd i say baby doll tell me what'd i say tell me what'd i say baby doll tell me what'd i say tell me what'd i say (yeah) "Now i wanna know baby i wanna know right now i wanna know yeah i wanna know right now i wanna know i wanna know yeah (talking - I think this part must be in Latin): "Alright ehh (ehh) oh (oh) eh (eh) oh (oh) eh (eh) oh (oh) "Ooh one more time (just one more time) say it one more time baby doll (just one more time) say it one more now (just one more time) say it one more time yeah (just one more time) say it one more time (just one more time) say it one more time (just one more time) (More Latin): "Ehh (ehh) ooh (ooh) hueh (hueh) haw (haw) hueh (hueh) haw (haw)........" Heavy stuff. To further spread his message, it's rumored that the Pope will be forming an Evangelical touring group with the Vatican Cardinals, known as 'Benny and the Jets'..... (And remember, you read it on rwg FIRST!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 Wow, it sounds like Benny has been listening to some Frank Zappa in between masses.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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