mastrmindalliance Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Hi, so after another Paypal transaction where I got hit with fees I went back and checked my transaction history from here and other places where I was the seller. Out of all these transactions from around the world there were eleven with Americans members. Of these eleven transactions - In ten of them I got hit with the fees rather than the buyer. In 17 other transactions with members from other countries the buyer always paid the fees... (Except for one fellow countryman - it was his very first PP transaction - he set up the account infact to purchase something from me. It was a noob mistake which he promptly rectified). Now, when I am the buyer, I always pay the fees. Because when someone lists a price, the price they state is the price to be paid. For example, if the buyer is asking for $100, it's doesn't mean $96.50 - it means $100. When I’m buying, I find it very hard to avoid because in the payment process there is a checkbox which is checked by default that the buyer pays the fees. You have to manually uncheck it for the seller to pay it. So it would seem that it is a deliberate action to lump the seller with the fees. Why this phenomenon with American buyers? Is it conscious decision? Or is the payment process different? As mentioned,in my experience, this is particular to American transactions. Everyone else does the right thing whether it's stated or not. Disclaimer: this is not directed at anyone in particular nor am I having a dig at Americans. I'm just wondering if this phenomenon is due to the American Paypal system. I see some people saying "+4%" instead 'buyer pays fees". Wondering if this is the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krpster Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 In the US and Canada the default is that the seller is hit with the fees. So when we go in to send money there is no means to accept paying the fees even if one wanted to. The only way to cover the fees as the buyer is to add it to the sum of the money sent. So having said all that it is usually up to the buyer and seller to hash out who is to pay the fees. Typically if the seller expects the fees to be covered they will say so in their sale post. If there is nothing to that effect then it is assumed that the seller will cover the fees. So your experience is in line with how it works over here in North America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Ahh ok. Well that makes perfect sense then. Seems weird that there would be no simple way as in my pic above. I'll be sure to meniton it for Americans in future. Have to give props to Asimplefarmer then. As he was the only one who actually paid the asking amount. Amazingly, he managed to work out the currency conversion and fee - and pay exactly the asking amount - to the cent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asf Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I always pay the fees too! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Yes you do. And i really appreciate it. I just tried out the "like" button. Works just like fb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbutlerman Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 When I send payments I always do it as personal and choose to pay the fee. Maybe of they do it as a purchase it defaults to seller pays fee. Hmmmmm. Not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 When I send payments I always do it as personal and choose to pay the fee. Maybe of they do it as a purchase it defaults to seller pays fee. Hmmmmm. Not sure. Thanks for the input. So just to verify - you're in the US and you have the option to pay the fee or not, just like in my screenshot above? If so, does it default to buyer or seller pays the fee when you're paying someone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbutlerman Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Yup, same screen, same option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Thanks db2. Ok, so it's personal choice thing then. So now it's more a cultural question... I wonder why 10 out 11 Americans opt to make the seller pay the fees? If the asking price is $100, don't others find it cheeky or even dodgy when they only receive 96.50? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbutlerman Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 It may be cultural. I always pay the fee because I feel the same way you do. But from the other point of view. The seller is asking you to pay a certain amount for an item, say $100. If I the buyer agree to purchase the goods for $100 that's what I'd expect to pay, not $101. Fees would be on the seller. As a business owner, I charge a a certain price for my product. When the buyer pays me with a credit card I pay a percentage of that sale to the credit card processor. That's just how it works. It's the cost of doing business... I guess technically I build that fee into my sales price, which is probably what we as sellers accepting paypal should do. Maybe we should build the price of the transaction fee into the selling price... This may be a totally American, free enterprise kind of mindset. What's the going mindset in the Land of Oz or Europe? Interesting topic actually! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Yep seems cultural. I hadn't thought about it till now but my thoughts are as posted - the asking price should be delivered to the seller. I just deleted a paragraph about GST (good and services tax), because it's not an accurate example. A more accurate comparison would be credit card levies as you state... In Aus, this credit card fee is paid by the buyer on top of the net price. In fact, my experience when travelling in the US is the same, as the buyer (in America) I've always paid the fees for goods and services. Not the merchant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbutlerman Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 In the states you pay the price on the tag and depending on where you live a sales tax on top of that. But that goes to the state not the seller. So the buyer pays the price on the tag plus tax if applicable. But by the time the sale gets deposited into the bank the transaction charges have been taken, so theY receive the sale less that fee. Then at some point the seller pays the taxes he's collected to the state. Are you saying that in Australia if the tag says $100 you pay some percentage above that fee that's isn't a tax to the government that covers the sellers charges to the credit card processor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatever123 Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 In Germany you don't even have that choice - the seller always pays the fees. Additionally there is no gift option... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneed12 Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 So just to verify - you're in the US and you have the option to pay the fee or not, just like in my screenshot above? Not always. It depends on what form of payment you choose ("personal" vs "gift" vs "goods" etc) and how you pay (there are no fees if you pay out of your paypal balance usually) and what the status of both the buyer and the seller is (if one or the other is a business account, there are fees regardless). If so, does it default to buyer or seller pays the fee when you're paying someone? If there is no option shown, the default is that the seller pays the fees. The only time I've ever had the option to pay the fees show up is when I've paid as a "personal" payment. Otherwise (if I do purchase as goods) there is no such option, the seller is just stuck with the fees. There are Paypal fees calculators online that let you calculate how much you need to send in order to have someone receive exactly what they ask (to receive $100, you need to send $103.30). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Are you saying that in Australia if the tag says $100 you pay some percentage above that fee that's isn't a tax to the government that covers the sellers charges to the credit card processor? Often it's the same here. Other times you will see a notice that reads "Credit cards incur a 3% surcharge". I guess even credit card are a bad comparison also. Perhaps a better comparison would be Forex trading. Anyway, my questions are answered. I know this is going way offtopic (but hey, it's my topic ) Interestingly I note that in the US there are ten states where credit card surcharges aren't allowed by law. I wonder if PP is allowed to charge fees in those those 10 states. The states are California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Oklahoma and Texas. Not always. It depends on what form of payment you choose ("personal" vs "gift" vs "goods" etc) and how you pay (there are no fees if you pay out of your paypal balance usually) and what the status of both the buyer and the seller is (if one or the other is a business account, there are fees regardless). Sorry, i thought it was obvious, i should have spelt out that I'm talking about personal payments only. For my question, no non-personal types of transactions were considered in my example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneed12 Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Sorry, i thought it was obvious, i should have spelt out that I'm talking about personal payments only. For my question, no non-personal types of transactions were considered in my example. Ah, ok. I NEVER use personal payments for watches so maybe that's why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krpster Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Sorry, I guess I should have clarified the context under which I was describing. Which is sending money for goods. I think sneed summed up nicely, depends on a lot of factors. In the end I think it is important to clarify between the buyer and seller how any fees are to be handled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbh Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Personally, I feel that if you buy something for $100 and the seller takes PP, the buyer should send $100. The PP fees are taken out of the sellers by default. It's just like buying something on a credit card. The seller always pays CC fees not the buyer. That's why so many people state in their sales post $100 and buyer pays fees. When I see that in a sales post it really turns me off to the purchase though. If the couple of dollars are that important sell the watch for $102. And, I would never buy a watch where the sellers demanded payment as gift. I'll send gift every time to someone that I feel comfortable with but other than that, why would I give up all my rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Right. The sales post should be specific. "$100 net to me" means that I, as the seller, will receive exactly $100 after all expenses (Ebay, shipping, etc). It doesn't turn me off, though, anymore than simply asking $110 for the same item with no mention of expenses would. I agree with kbh, though. No gift payments to unknown sellers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbh Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Thanks db2. Ok, so it's personal choice thing then. So now it's more a cultural question... I wonder why 10 out 11 Americans opt to make the seller pay the fees? If the asking price is $100, don't others find it cheeky or even dodgy when they only receive 96.50? It may be cultural or not. I don't know but there is certainly nothing cheeky or dodgy about it. Why is it any different than buying something on eBay. You buy, it takes you to PP and you pay the amount you bid. You don't pay the bid amount plus fees. Why is it any different than using a credit card at a store? I've owned a few retail stores in my past and fees are part of your cost of doing business as a seller. I don't know if it's still true but It used to be that you absolutely were not allowed to charge the buyer for the cost of credit card fees or you would loose your CC account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbutlerman Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 fees are part of your cost of doing business as a seller. That's the way I see it. If the seller chooses to pay the fees I just see them as being generous and stand up about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 That's the way I see it. If the seller chooses to pay the fees I just see them as being generous and stand up about it. Precisely. Being stand up about it on forum sales means acknowledging that the sale is private. That the seller in this case is not a merchant. Merchants build the cost into the price. It's still interesting that everyone else simply leaves the box checked as it is by default, but Americans largely to to uncheck it. My sales posts list "net to me" btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbutlerman Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Stupid Cheap Americans! Wait...oh crap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krpster Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Right. The sales post should be specific. "$100 net to me" means that I, as the seller, will receive exactly $100 after all expenses (Ebay, shipping, etc). It doesn't turn me off, though, anymore than simply asking $110 for the same item with no mention of expenses would. I agree with kbh, though. No gift payments to unknown sellers. Only problem I see with the "net to me" approach is that it is often used incorrectly. Sometimes it will be accompanied by other comments regarding fees or shipping such as "with shipping". Hence when I see that in the post I am not sure what their expectation is. So I still think it is a good idea to clarify when communicating regarding the sale. Precisely. Being stand up about it on forum sales means acknowledging that the sale is private. That the seller in this case is not a merchant. Merchants build the cost into the price. It's still interesting that everyone else simply leaves the box checked as it is by default, but Americans largely to to uncheck it. My sales posts list "net to me" btw. Typically that check box is not there when we send money. Out of at least 100 transactions I have only ever seen the option to pay the fees once. Oddly enough it was for a gift option. So it is not that we are choosing not to pay the fees actively. The is just no option to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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