Let the US Political Debate continue.....

[redwatch]

Quoted some of these from another thread. Enjoy folks!

The message from the American CEO in terms of economic insight is well documented: Get government out of our way. It's too expensive and risky to hire workers in the current tax and regulatory environment, and therefore the demand for American labor continues to diminish and the desire to start up new business on American soil is at an all time low. So, for example, I could create millions of jobs literally overnight by doing one simple thing: abolishing minimum wage laws. But now, how do you get the politicians to go along for the ride, well that's where the beef really is.

The tax rates were cut in 2001 and we de-regulated business, but no increase in jobs happened, in fact it led to a crash. We had record low unemployment in the `90s with higher taxes, regulations that had been in place since the early 1930s, and a budget surplus that was designated to pay off our entire National Debt by 2006. I think that by taxing the wealthy more it makes them hungry to replace that money, and in turn do more business. That means employing more, manufacturing more, selling more. The wealthy are the ones who know how to make money, they've proved that. Let them do what they do best, and what they have done every time their tax rates were higher.

No, what caused the dotcom crash was the artificial dotcom boom itself, a result of monetary recklessness in the 1990s which led to all sorts of imbalances. The budget surplus was a myth as one can note that the total national debt increased every year during the 90's. The Clinton administration created the illusion of a surplus by touting the decreased public debt while conveniently not mentioning that the money being borrowed from Social Security was ever-increasing along with the total national debt itself. They *almost* created a real surplus in 2000, but not quite. They came $18B short as I recall.

What we have to do is assume that before long we'll have to return to a sane, logical, and sound monetary system. Under such a system, the inflation-driven booms such as those of the 1990's and 2000's that created unsustainable bubbles in the stock market and the housing market respectively, and along with them distortions throughout the economy, would no longer be possible. And then simple economics can play out. In an environment where money isn't printed at will and created out of thin air, government regulations that make hiring more difficult, risky, and costly serve to reduce demand for labor in the aggregate, i.e. create higher unemployment. And taxing the "rich" (a.k.a. the job creators, as our current crop of presidential hopefuls correctly identify them) does create a greater hunger - but unfortunately it's a hunger to leave the high tax, high regulatory climates for those more favorable, and in the process of doing so taking their jobs with them.

The US desperately needs a cutback in spending, and major tax reform. Elimination of corporate taxes, elimination of minimum wage laws and public sector unions, large cuts in personal income taxes, and the institution of a national sales tax would be excellent starts. We need to be taxing people not when they accumulate wealth, but when they spend it. We need to encourage productivity, and tax consumption. And then, of course, we must live within our means.

You are mistaken. There was no "dotcom crash", it's bigger than ever. And it is fact that Clinton left a budget surplus that was to pay down the National Debt by 2006. Bush gave that surplus away when he had his first recession. Then Bush's de-regulations brought about the Enron scandal, the loss of people's pensions plans, the mishandling of the mission in Afghanistan and the complete waste of brave soldiers and $billions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The "job creators" have created no jobs with the tax cuts Bush gave them. To ignore that fact is absurd. REGULATIONS would limit any who wish to move to "climates more favorable" than supporting their own Nation.

The LAST thing we need do is to cut spending, the wealthy are not spending but instead hoarding their money. That's what fuels a recession into a depression.

It is absurd to cut spending when the wealthy are sitting on their money.

It is ridiculous to cut jobs when unemployment is high.

It is insane to cut taxes when we have funding shortfalls brought about by the very ones who want to cut everything.

A national sales tax is completely unfair to the poor.

All you list would enable the conservative Republicans to finish the job they began under Bush, and bring us into complete collapse, a depression.

But this isn't the place to discuss such things. You might want to keep your political posts to another section.

what % of US GDP is govt spendng?

What does that statement even mean?

Right, and yet the national debt increased every year during the 1990's despite these "surpluses"!

http://www.treasuryd...debt_histo4.htm

Hint: the debt can't increase during a year with a real surplus.

Not so. Enron's actions, known as fraud, were still illegal and the SEC simply failed to review their filings year after year. It was only a private hedge fund manager who exposed them.

Why did you go there? I thought you didn't want to get political.

Really? America would force the "rich" to stay in America? Wow, I thought he was nuts, but maybe Ron Paul actually had a point when he claimed that building a wall between America and Mexico might some day serve to keep Americans in!!

Unfortunately the recession is necessary. Sometimes the medicine tastes bad, but you have to swallow it. We need less borrowing and spending, more savings. We need to liquidate all the malinvestments that have been made over the last 10 years, and start to reallocate resources as we build capital. It takes time, it's called a recession or depression depending on duration, it's the result of living beyond our means for far too long, and it's the only cure. And all the attempts by all the politicians on both sides of the aisle to attempt to avoid it are simply further distorting market forces and are only going to make the eventual depression that much worse.

That is a military assessment, not a political one.

You hijacked this thread in your reply #40 with your politics. I don't think that is appropriate, and should be taken elsewhere.

I completely disagree with your position and your conclusion. I prefer factual history instead.

Post #40 wasn't a hijack, it was a reply to a previous post and a relaying of conversations with CEOs that have been playing out on financial networks and in print for months. Politics had nothing to do with it. One such example: http://video.foxbusi...olding-us-back/

You can disagree all you want and confuse correlation and causation, but you can't refer to fiction as fact.

Joey... gonna have to go with chief here...

You should look up clinton and the removal of the Glass-Steagall Act. It was original put in place by Roosevelt to prevent another recession caused by bank collapse and their ability to issue credit. Clinton SINGLE HANDEDLY CAUSED THE DEPRESSION WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW. http://www.godlikepr...ssage463398/pg1

There is a really cool discussion between a few economists on Repgeek if you want to really get into a fight. Obama has done NOTHING except support big banks. He even hired numerous members onto his staff. HIS CABINET IS THE PEOPLE HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE "Fighting the good fight" against! http://www.chartings...hment-insiders/

Its all bullshit man. Don't listen to what your liberal teachers tell you in college because they are all part of the problem too.

If Obama is to really "change" things. He needs to reinstate the act.

I really never was that political until Obama. I hate the man. The one thing I can thank him for though is that he has done such a terrible job that it caused me to rise up and start getting involved.

We will disagree.

Joey,

I asked a mod to split this off so we can continue our discussion!

I am really interested though in what you disagree about? Do you feel that the repel of the glass-steagall act was a good decision? What are your insights to what Obama has done to increase the amount of jobs? Do you have any insight to the economists on repgeek and their opinion on the obama policy? Do you have any articles that you would like Chief and I to take a look at?

Let us know!

[Nanuq]

Well done Red, let's keep the politics over in this thread.

Remember boys, no low blows, we want a fair fight. Facts at 20 paces.

Let 'er rip!

[JoeyB]

I am really interested though in what you disagree about? Just about all of it.

Do you feel that the repel of the glass-steagall act was a good decision? Absolutely not.

What are your insights to what Obama has done to increase the amount of jobs? I think Obama has tried to stimulate the economy in the face of Republican/conservatives who have tried to slow or even stop economic growth and hinder any reduction in unemployment.

Do you have any insight to the economists on repgeek and their opinion on the obama policy? I rarely go to RepGeek.

Do you have any articles that you would like Chief and I to take a look at? History books.

[blue_sphere]

Thanks a lot guys! I posted in the "shoutbox" about our accidental derailing! Thanks to red to rectifying the situation!

I am really interested though in what you disagree about? Just about all of it.

Do you feel that the repel of the glass-steagall act was a good decision? Absolutely not.

What are your insights to what Obama has done to increase the amount of jobs? I think Obama has tried to stimulate the economy in the face of Republican/conservatives who have tried to slow or even stop economic growth and hinder any reduction in unemployment.

Do you have any insight to the economists on repgeek and their opinion on the obama policy? I rarely go to RepGeek.

Do you have any articles that you would like Chief and I to take a look at? History books.

Alright well I am not sure how vested you are in the discussion but Ill take a shot... Obama economy stimulus to me mainly meant bailing out big corporations which under a free market would have failed. As it is now there is little faith in the economy and we are STILL seeing swings and fear has stayed at similar levels.

I was really glad that you said "History Books" because really that was the basis of my argument against Obama. I feel there are many things Roosevelt did right which Obama REALLY needs to fix. The glass-steagall act being the biggest. The second though... Is my question Why do you think Obama is handing out unemployment benefits year after year instead of promoting government work programs?

To me this is what really pisses hard working americans off. Ok you lost your job... that sucks... now you want to sit on your butt for 4 years while Obama pays you using money that he doesn't really have? Why isnt the government offering jobs to people? Painting, doing road work, cleaning up the streets, hell ANYTHING to get these welfare bums up off thier butts working! The results of the work programs during the 30's were FANTASTIC! People felt like they were DOING something and getting paid! What is Obama's mission if all he is doing is keeping the unemployed doing just that!

Also at the history book comment... I know that was meant to raze. If you want to post an actual link or source I would look it over. I have done a lot of research on this and his economic policy is just plain FLAWED!

[Ronin]

I am not taking sides here, but Obama has been a productive President, and not all bad like Fox (Faux) News would have you believe. You may not agree with with some of the hot button topics regarding the environment, or DADT, but none the less, the man has been busy.

Lets also keep in mind the country is pretty much split down the middle from a Red-vs-Blue perspective. I find it funny how people get worked up when things don't support THEIR, often selfish, views of how things should be. The political arena has become more of a sporting contest, king of the hill (pun intended), stay in power situation. What is really best for the country gets lost in this game. What makes America great is that we can all have our different views...

IF YOUR ONLY SOURCE OF NEWS is: Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Daily Show, Limbaugh, NPR, Huffington-- PLEASE DON'T REGURGITATE THEIR AGENDA DRIVEN "ENTERTAINMENT"

P.S. Ron Paul 2012

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Since coming into office on January 21, 2009, President Barack Obama has:

1. Signed an Executive Order on government contracting to fight waste and abuse:

http://www.whitehous...ent_contracting

2. Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, restoring basic protections against pay discrimination for women and other workers:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtKAKlurRAY

3. Renewed dialogue with NATO and other allies and partners on strategic issues:

http://www.whitehous...nistan-and-NATO

4. Announced a plan to responsibly end the war in Iraq:

http://www.nytimes.c...n/28troops.html

5. Provided funding to families of fallen soldiers have expenses covered to be on hand when the body arrives at Dover AFB:

http://thelede.blogs...l-help-families

6. Ended media blackout on war casualties and the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB:

http://news.bbc.co.u...cas/7986203.stm

7. Signed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act:

http://www.recovery....es/The_Act.aspx

8. Launched Recovery.gov to track spending from the Recovery Act, an unprecedented step to provide transparency and accountability through technology:

http://www.recovery....Pages/home.aspx

9. Announced the "Making Home Affordable" home refinancing plan:

http://www.makinghomeaffordable.gov

10. Launched a $15 billion plan to boost lending to small businesses:

http://www.whitehous...business-owners

11. Invested heavily in education both as a way to provide jobs now and lay the foundation for long-term prosperity:

http://www.whitehous...ssues/education

12. Provided the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) with more than $1.4 billion to improve services to America’s Veterans:

http://www.whitehous...issues/veterans

13. Signed an Executive Order establishing the White House Office of Urban Affairs:

http://www.washingto...9070201410.html

14. Limited lobbyist's access to the White House:

http://thecaucus.blo...ng-restrictions

15. Issued an Presidential Memorandum to restore scientific integrity in government decision-making:

http://www.whitehous...Agencies-3-9-09

16. Answered questions at the first online town hall from the White House that were submitted and voted on transparently by the public at WhiteHouse.gov:

http://www.google.co...otRBvNhY7DR572g

17. Established a central portal for Americans to find service opportunities:

http://www.serve.gov

18. Launched Business.gov – enabling conversation and online collaboration between small business owners, government representatives and industry experts in discussion forums relevant to starting and managing a business:

http://www.business.gov

19. Appointed the first ever Federal Chief Information Officer to provide management and oversight over federal IT spending:

http://www.cio.gov

20. Signed the Children’s Health Insurance Reauthorization Act on February 4, 2009, which provides quality health care to 11 million kids – 4 million who were previously uninsured:

http://themiddleclas...zation-act-2009

21. Issued an Executive Order repealing the Bush-Era restrictions on embryonic stem cell research:

http://www.guardian....em-cell-funding

22. Signed the Christopher and Dana Reeve Paralysis Act, the first piece of comprehensive legislation aimed at improving the lives of Americans living with paralysis:

http://www.christoph...ralysis_Act.htm

23. Announced creation of a Joint Virtual Lifetime Electronic Record for members of the U.S. Armed Forces to improve quality of medical care:

http://www.whitehous...hey-Have-Earned

24. Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date:

http://www.nytimes.c...on/19gates.html

25. Committed to phasing out the expensive F-22 war plane and other outdates weapons systems, which weren't even used or needed in Iraq/Afghanistan:

http://www.cnn.com/2...tes.budget.cuts

26. Provided federal support for stem-cell and new biomedical research:

http://www.time.com/...1908954,00.html

27. Provided new federal funding for science and research labs:

http://www.nytimes.c...sfstimulus.html

28. Played a lead role in G-20 Summit that produced a $1.1 trillion deal to combat the global financial crisis:

http://www.g20.org

29. Signed the Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act to stop fraud and wasteful spending in the defense procurement and contracting system:

http://en.wikipedia....orm_Act_of_2009

30. Ordered the closure of the prison at Guantanamo Bay and a review of our detention and interrogation policy, and prohibited the use of torture:

http://www.cnn.com/2...rder/index.html

31. Appointed Special Envoys for Climate Change, Southwest Asia, the Middle

East, Sudan, and a Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan:

http://www.america.g...328677e-02.html

32. Empowered states to enact federal fuel efficiency standards above federal standards:

http://www.nytimes.c...cs/26calif.html

33. Increased infrastructure spending (roads, bridges, power plants) after years of neglect:

http://www.usnews.co...e-spending.html

34. Increased minority access to capital:

http://www.politifac...cess-to-capital

35. Developed a comprehensive new strategy on Afghanistan and Pakistan that will help defeat Al Qaeda and authorized the deployment of more than 21,000 troops to Afghanistan:

http://www.washingto...9032700836.html

36. Signed the Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act which gives the federal government more tools to investigate and prosecute fraud, from lending to the financial system, and creates a bipartisan Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission to investigate the financial practices that brought us to this point:

http://blogs.abcnews...-signs-hou.html

37. Signed the Helping Families Save Their Homes Act, expanding on the Making Home Affordable Program to help millions of Americans avoid preventable foreclosures, providing $2.2 billion to help combat homelessness, and helping to stabilize the housing market for everybody:

http://www.zillow.co...their-homes-act

38. Increased, for the first time in more than a decade, the fuel economy standards for Model Year 2011 for cars and trucks so they will get better mileage, saving drivers money and spurring companies to develop more innovative products:

http://www.politico....0509/22650.html

39. Issued a Presidential Memorandum to the Department of Energy to implement more aggressive efficiency standards for common household appliances, like dishwashers and refrigerators. Through this step, over the next three decades, we’ll save twice the amount of energy produced by all the coal-fired power plants in America in any given year:

http://www.whitehous...ciencyStandards

40. Unveiled a program on Earth Day 2009 to develop the renewable energy projects on the waters of our Outer Continental Shelf that produce electricity from wind, wave, and ocean currents. These regulations will enable, for the first time ever, the nation to tap into our ocean’s vast sustainable resources to generate clean energy in an environmentally sound and safe manner:

http://www.earthday.org

41. Announced a new U.S.-Mexico border initiative:

http://www.whitehous...-and-Commitment

42. Concluded cyberspace policy review:

http://www.whitehous...berspace-Review

43. Announced a strategy to address the international nuclear threat:

http://www.whitehous...ue-As-Delivered

44. Established a new "U.S.-China Strategic and Economic Dialogue":

http://www.whitehous...ent-Hu-Of-China

45. Announced new policy steps towards Cuba:

http://www.nytimes.c...cas/05cuba.html

46. Increased minority access to capital:

http://www.politifac...cess-to-capital

47. Issued a Presidential Memorandum on the Freedom of Information Act instructing the Attorney General to issue new guidelines to the government implementing those same principles of openness and transparency in the processing of FOIA requests:

http://www.whitehous...Information_Act

48. Funded the design of a new Smithsonian National Museum of African American History scheduled to open on the National Mall in 2015:

http://www.facebook.com/NMAAHC

49. The Executive Order on Presidential Records brings those principles to presidential records by giving the American people greater access to these historic documents, severely curtailing the ability to use executive privilege to shield those documents:

http://www.whitehous...dential_Records

50. Signed the Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act, a hallmark piece of legislation:

http://www.democrats...rd_m_kenned.php

51. Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure (CARD) Act to protect Americans from unfair and deceptive credit card practices:

http://www.newsunfil...inds_credi.html

52. Signed an Executive Order establishing a White House Council on Women and Girls to provide a coordinated Federal response to the challenges confronted by women and girls and to ensure that all Cabinet and Cabinet-level agencies consider how their policies and programs impact women and

families:

http://parenting.blo...women-and-girls

53. Launched a U.S. financial and banking rescue plan:

http://www.america.g...z0.7537805.html

54. Ordered secret detention facilities in Eastern Europe and elsewhere to be closed:

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Black_site

55. Ended the previous policy; the US now has a no torture policy and is in compliance with the Geneva Convention standards:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Geneva_Accord

56. Launched U.S. Auto industry rescue plan:

http://news.xinhuane...nt_11102980.htm

57. Provided better body armor to our troops:

http://www.usatoday....ody-armor_x.htm

58. Authorized cutting the missile defense program by $1.4 billion in 2010:

http://www.stripes.c...4&article=62548

59. Restarted the nuclear nonproliferation talks and building back up the nuclear inspection infrastructure/protocols:

http://articles.lati...obama-nuclear25

60. Reengaged in the treaties/agreements to protect the Antarctic:

http://jonbowermaste...tarctic-tourism

61. Reengaged in the agreements/talks on global warming and greenhouse gas emissions, and addressed the U.N. Climate Change Conference:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ-SMqh7q3o

62. Supported the first steps of a legally-binding treaty to reduce mercury emissions worldwide:

http://www.ens-newsw...09-02-16-02.asp

63. Visited more countries and met with more world leaders than any president in his first six months in office:

http://www.politifac...ed-more-countri

64. Managed several natural disasters successfully, including severe winter ice storms and flooding in several states:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=drlsi3Ng4jw

65. Provided new car tax credit:

http://www.soundmone...-car-tax-credit

66. Provided attractive tax write-offs for those who buy hybrid automobiles:

http://www.hybridcar...incentives.html

67. Purchased fuel efficient American-made fleet of vehicles for the federal government:

http://blogs.edmunds...-carmakers.html

68. Endorsed Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act of 2009 that would close offshore tax havens:

http://www.financial...nce-act-of-2009

69. Nominated Sonia Sotomayor to Supreme Court. She was confirmed and becomes the first Hispanic Supreme Court justice:

http://www.huffingto...u_n_253146.html

70. Helped reverse a downward spiral of the stock market. On January 19, 2009, the last day of President Bush's presidency, the Dow closed at 8,218.22. Today, the Dow closed at 10,309.24:

http://stockcharts.c...l/djia1900.html

71. Earned an unprecedented success rate of 96.7% on winning congressional votes on issues where he took a position. He did even better than legendary arm-twister Lyndon Johnson who had a 93% success rate in 1965:

http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=122436116

72. Provided affordable, high-quality child care to working families:

http://www.politifac...lity-child-care

73. Restored America's reputation as a global leader that will do the "right thing" in world affairs:

http://pewglobal.org/docs/?DocID=12

74. Issued an executive order to create the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform:

http://money.cnn.com...ssion/index.htm

75. Increased funding for student loans and pell grants for 2010 students:

http://www.ourfuture...dents-not-banks

76. Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals:

http://www.law.com/j...d=1202433002570

77. Provided tax credit to workers thus cutting taxes for 95% of America's working families:

http://www.politifac...or-middle-class

78. Cracked down on companies that deny sick pay, vacation and health insurance to workers by abusing the employee classification of independent contractor. Such companies also avoid paying Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes for those workers:

http://www.nytimes.c.../18workers.html

79. Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act that made it a federal crime to assault an individual because of his or her sexual orientation or gender identity:

http://www.cnn.com/2...imes/index.html

80. Appointed the first Special Assistant to the President for Disability Policy:

http://www.whitehous...-to-the-Preside

81. Signed the Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act authorizing advance appropriations for the Department of Veterans Affairs by providing two-fiscal year budget authority thus enabling better medical care for veterans. Endorsed by the American Legion, American Veterans, Blinded Veter...ans Association, Disabled American Veterans, Jewish War Veterans, Military Officers Association, Military Order of the Purple Heart, Paralyzed Veterans of America and Vietnam Veterans of America:

http://www.whitehous...ransparency-Act

82. Held impromptu press conference to urge Congress to investigate Anthem Blue Cross and other corporate health insurance companies that raise premiums in high amounts without explanation. Rep. Henry Waxman launches probe. In this case, Anthem Blue Cross wanted to raise premiums 39%. They have now put the increase on hold for two months (as of February 2010). Legislation preventing such increases pending:

http://news.yahoo.co...thcare_insurers

83. Designated $1.5 billion from the Troubled Asset Relief Program to fund programs at local housing finance agencies in the states hardest hit by the housing crisis: California, Florida, Nevada, Arizona and Michigan. The MBA forecasts that foreclosures will peak in the last quarter of 2010:

http://www.msnbc.msn...cks_and_economy

84. Protected 300,000 education jobs, such as teachers, principals, librarians, and counselors through the Recovery Act that would have otherwise been lost:

http://www2.ed.gov/n.../02012010a.html

85. Extended discounted COBRA health coverage for the nation's unemployed from 9 months to 15 months. Workers laid off between September 1, 2008 and February 28, 2010 qualify:

http://bucks.blogs.n...erage-subsidies

86. Extended unemployment benefits for 2,000,000 unemployed Americans by 20 weeks. At the time the bill was signed 7,000 unemployed Americans were losing their unemployment benefits each day:

http://money.cnn.com...efits/index.htm

87. Eliminated federal funding for abstinence-only education which was significantly increased during the Bush Administration to $176 million annually:

http://www.guardian....ancy-cdc-report

88. Rescinded the Global Gag Rule:

http://www.guttmache...1/23/index.html

89. Appointed the most diverse Cabinet in history including more women appointees than any other incoming president:

http://www.diversity...57/article/6319

90. Committed to no permanent military bases in Iraq through the Defense Authorization Act. For your reference:

http://www.politifac...t-bases-in-iraq

91. Provided tax credits to first-time home buyers through the Worker, Homeownership, and Business Assistance Act of 2009 to revitalize the U.S. housing market:

http://www.federalhousingtaxcredit.com

92. Provided the Department of Veterans Affairs the largest spending increase in 30 years to improve medical facilities and national cemeteries, and to assist states in acquiring or constructing state nursing homes and extended care facilities:

http://www1.va.gov/o...ase.cfm?id=1671

93. Strengthened the Endangered Species Act:

http://www.stopextin...rotections.html

94. Empowered states that legalized medical marijuana to regulate themselves. Fourteen states have allowed some use of marijuana for medical purposes: Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Maryland, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington:

http://www.huffingto...l_n_325426.html

95. Enhanced earth mapping:

http://www.politifac...e-earth-mapping

96. Increased funding for national parks and forests in 2010, and plans to do it again for FY 2011:

http://www.defenders...d_and_water.php

97. Changed failing war strategy in Afghanistan:

http://www.cnn.com/2...stan/index.html

98. Allocated special funding to the Labor Department to provide green job training to veterans:

http://www.politifac...promote-environ

99. Allocated funding to states and the Department of Homeland Security to save thousands of police or firefighter jobs from being cut during the recession:

http://www.politifac...rgency-planning

100. Created and sustained 2.1 million jobs and stimulated the economy 3.5% [as of December 31, 2009] through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act:

http://www.reuters.c...311303720100223

[JoeyB]

What Ronin listed.

[Watchmeister]

I am a more simplistic person. Everything can be blamed on free/cheap money and lax credit policies - irrespective of who was in office. Free money caused the average consumer to borrow and then spend too much whether on homes or tv's. Free money caused the banks to do the same thing. Borrowing at very low rates and then making loans to people or businesses who had no business borrowing or simply using the borrowing to lever up the balance sheet to take what turned out to be unlimited risks. Heck, the U.S. government did the same thing and they print the money. And as to how we are going to reduce government spending? This should be interesting - if each of defense, social security and medicare/medicaid which have largely been regarded as untouchable take up approximately 20% of our annual budget it is going to be a very interesting debate.

One last thought. What do you think of the concept of one term limits? That way all of these megalomaniac politicians will focus on something other than the next election.

[redwatch]

Ok, first of all, I am a Canadian, so American politics are a little above my head. That being said, I have lived in Los Angeles for the past 15 years and this is the one thing that I have learned about the politics here. Bottom line: it is reserved for the most petty, selfish, self-righteous group of people i have ever encountered. Instead of working together to fix a problem, each side works to shoot down the other sides ideas and suggestions. I feel really bad for Obama. He came into office with a HUGE mess on his hands and now, 3 years later, things aren't fixed yet and it's so convenient for the Republicans to blame him directly for his inability to push anything forward when it is, in fact, the Republican party who is stalling on everything. All for the sake of what is best for them and their rich friends.

As for Blue-Sphere's comment about the job situation, I have a couple of friends who lost their jobs a while back. I don't know anyone who has worked harder to find work than them. It's unfortunate that they are in a specialized field, but that is not their fault. If it weren't for the unemployment extensions, they would have nothing and their families would be out in the street. As it is they are barely making ends meet. I don't think they are sitting back, reveling in the luxuries that Obama affords them on their measly unemployment checks.

Far as I am concerned, taxes should be raised, and tax cuts for large corporations should be re-evaluated. For that matter do two things:

1. Grant all illegal immigrants amnesty - make them citizens and tax them. That's about 10 million folk (probably just in California alone) that would happily pay taxes just to be legal.

2. Make marijuana legal and tax it.

Just my thoughts

[JoeyB]

Alright well I am not sure how vested you are in the discussion but Ill take a shot... Obama economy stimulus to me mainly meant bailing out big corporations which under a free market would have failed. As it is now there is little faith in the economy and we are STILL seeing swings and fear has stayed at similar levels.

I was really glad that you said "History Books" because really that was the basis of my argument against Obama. I feel there are many things Roosevelt did right which Obama REALLY needs to fix. The glass-steagall act being the biggest. The second though... Is my question Why do you think Obama is handing out unemployment benefits year after year instead of promoting government work programs?

To me this is what really pisses hard working americans off. Ok you lost your job... that sucks... now you want to sit on your butt for 4 years while Obama pays you using money that he doesn't really have? Why isnt the government offering jobs to people? Painting, doing road work, cleaning up the streets, hell ANYTHING to get these welfare bums up off thier butts working! The results of the work programs during the 30's were FANTASTIC! People felt like they were DOING something and getting paid! What is Obama's mission if all he is doing is keeping the unemployed doing just that!

Also at the history book comment... I know that was meant to raze. If you want to post an actual link or source I would look it over. I have done a lot of research on this and his economic policy is just plain FLAWED!

The Stimulus Plan was a success. Even the conservative leaning Wall Street Journal said that. It kept us from what Bush called a "coming depression", brought us out of recession and into recovery. This recovery is slowed, but it is slowed by Obama's opposition. But the Stimulus Plan was not used to bail out any business or corporations. That was Bush's TARP parting give-a-way gift to Wall Street. When Obama took office he changed TARP to be loans charging 8% interest, and requiring proof that the company repaying the money was stable on their own You might remember banks and firms waiting, paying interest, to pay it back because now it cost them money. Obama extended bailouts from TARP to only 2 companies, GM and Chrysler. GM had to re-organize and get a new boss, Chrysler had to get a buyer. Both have, both have paid back TARP, plus interest. Obama has gotten most of our TARP tax dollars back, interest included, in the Treasury.

Glass-Steagall is dead and gone, buried by the right. Congress under Pelosi, and with Obama's urging, put regs back in, but did not have the power to male those regs as strong as they used to be. Since last November, nothing Obama wants will be passed, even programs the right has previously supported.

The Republican/Tea party will only cut jobs, not allowing any new jobs in government. See Paul Ryan's proposal. It wasn't just trying to cut SS and Medicare. They have the legislative power for now, and nothing will get done by them while Obama is president.

The unemployed are NOT "welfare bums". The Nation was hemorrhaging jobs before Obama took office. How quickly we forget.

Again, the right is blocking it. Obama's job bill that tonight got 51 Democrat votes in the Senate. Obama has made a tour of the country going to the very districts McConnell and Boehner represent pointing out all the infrastructure that needs repair. But they won't vote for the president's plan to put people to work and do those repairs. Why? Because high unemployment should allow the GOP to defeat Obama in 2012. They are betting none of those bridges the President pointed out will collapse with a school bus on it.

The Republican/Tea Party will not pass anything that will help Obama, which means they will not help the People. And they are the ones who crashed this economy in the first place.

I really don';t want to get into this on this site. I come here to talk about watches. But I do have very strong feelings for this Nation. I cannot, and will not allow any FOX 'news' and/or right-wing revisionist history B.S. to be posted unchallenged.

[JoeyB]

I am a more simplistic person. Everything can be blamed on free/cheap money and lax credit policies - irrespective of who was in office. Free money caused the average consumer to borrow and then spend too much whether on homes or tv's. Free money caused the banks to do the same thing. Borrowing at very low rates and then making loans to people or businesses who had no business borrowing or simply using the borrowing to lever up the balance sheet to take what turned out to be unlimited risks. Heck, the U.S. government did the same thing and they print the money. And as to how we are going to reduce government spending? This should be interesting - if each of defense, social security and medicare/medicaid which have largely been regarded as untouchable take up approximately 20% of our annual budget it is going to be a very interesting debate.

One last thought. What do you think of the concept of one term limits? That way all of these megalomaniac politicians will focus on something other than the next election.

That would be the de-regulations by the Bush Administration.

[JoeyB]

1. Grant all illegal immigrants amnesty - make them citizens and tax them. That's about 10 million folk (probably just in California alone) that would happily pay taxes just to be legal.

2. Make marijuana legal and tax it.

Just my thoughts

The Obama Administration has deployed more troops on our border than any of his predecessors. It did little good, just as a fence would do nothing but keep people in. But what we saw while Bush was still in office and the economy was crashing was a huge exodus of illegals. No jobs, they left. They've since come back. A couple of months ago the Obama Administration changed the method of dealing with illegals. They no longer chase them down (except illegals with criminal records. There have been several sweeps done in the past few weeks that rounded up several thousand) but instead call on businesses during business hours. If illegals are found they are sent home, and the business is heavily fined. No jobs, they will leave. At the present time we need those jobs for American citizens more than for illegals.

2. That's OK, just don't tax rep watches!! But kidding aside, think about how much money must be spent over the internet that is not generating sales tax. That has an affect on local, county, state and federal programs. We used to pay a sales tax on everything we bought. I'd bet just the people on this site, being used to buying on the net, pay a small percentage of what they used to before the net.

[redwatch]

Show me one american citizen (at least here in Los Angeles County) that will take the job of gardener, maid, valet, or janitor. There are a ton of illegal's here in LA that do those very jobs, and we all sit back and happily pay them for their services. Why? Because they are happy to do it. Unbelievable happy. They are so gracious and thankful for the job and their work shows it. I have yet to see anyone take pride in their work like the guy who does the gardening at my house (my landloard pays him - I would never hire a gardener to cut my grass).

If the job doesn't pay at least $40k a year, no one wants it (again, at least not here in Southern California). Of course, if they were legal, and had to pay taxes or form a company in order to continue doing that job, they probably wouldn't do it for the amount of money that they get now and then no one would hire them.

And don't even get me started on the "adult entertainment" business. There is a massive group of people who don't claim an income, or lie about the amount that they make every year. Or the "escort" business for that matter.

[HauteHippie]

I am a more simplistic person. Everything can be blamed on free/cheap money and lax credit policies - irrespective of who was in office.

Bingo!!!!!

[JoeyB]

Show me one american citizen

It might be regional or an exeption, but my next door neighbor's son started doing lawns in high school, expanded the business and paid his way through college, and now has a 25 man crew and equipment to do it all, including snow plowing in the winter.

[HauteHippie]

And don't even get me started on the "adult entertainment" business. There is a massive group of people who don't claim an income, or lie about the amount that they make every year. Or the "escort" business for that matter.

Please do get started, and tell us more about the adult entertainment and escort businesses. In a new thread if needed.

[Dave123]

Ok, first of all, I am a Canadian, so American politics are a little above my head.

No,they are below your head. Thats why they have a problem and we lead the world,economically.

As the US and EU suffer thru the troubles,they look to Canada's economic policies these days to shape up themselves. It is indeed,about time.

[JoeyB]

Please do get started, and tell us more about the adult entertainment and escort businesses. In a new thread if needed.

That thread would be worthless without pics...

As memory serves, I believe onzenuub could be quite helpful in such an endeavor.

[redwatch]

Please do get started, and tell us more about the adult entertainment and escort businesses. In a new thread if needed.

That thread would be worthless without pics...

As memory serves, I believe onzenuub could be quite helpful in such an endeavor.

Ahhh....politics and sex. The two do go hand in hand quite nicely, don't they

[HauteHippie]

Ahhh....politics and sex. The two do go hand in hand quite nicely, don't they

Ya, I wonder if the money Clinton borrowed from Social Security that drove up the national debt was used to pay for sex?

[redwatch]

That's it? 18 posts from 6 members?

[tomhorn]

I will be the first to admit that I am not all that politically savvy and probably can't have an intelligent debate on the good/evil of the American political system. I will offer up the following observations:

1) to Ronin ... doing a lot of 'things' as President does not make one a good employee, leader, and especially not a President. I have run many companies and departments and cannot count the number of employees that I had to fire that always looked busy or could point to a long string of things they had 'done' while I was firing them for doing the wrong things and/or not really doing anything to benefit the company. There were also those I let go because they took 20 hours to do things that others could get done in 10. Must admit I didn't research your entire list, but there was a lot of fluff in it and a lot of things I certainly didn't consider all that great of an accomplishment. Having said that, you can say the same about every President the US has ever had. They all did good things and bad things ... even the Presidents that history has judged to be incompetent probably did some good things along the way too.

2) I work with an investor group that committed $10 million to me in 2008 to buy a company that had a lot of potential to be turned around. Right before the election when it was clear Obama was going to win, they told me to stop on the purchase because they wanted to see what happened first. They were very concerned what would happen to taxes, and then after 'Obamacare' passed they were even more concerned about what those expenses would look like. This project was small, but would have created about 30 new permanent jobs in a city where unemployment is much higher than the average, and would have employed many temporary construction workers for another six months or so. This project is still on hold three years later, and may never get done. This is just my example, but I have to believe there are thousands more just like it. When the pundents talk about raising taxes on the rich killing job creation, they aren't kidding. It happens. But instability and uncertainty are just as big of factors. Business leaders right now have no clue what crazy idea the Obama administration is going to come up with next, and they are just circling the wagons to wait it out.

3) All US politicians have to head to their respective party's fringe (far left or far right) to create a big enough gap in philosophy vs their opponent to rally enough votes to get elected. The good politicians know that over time they have to come back to the middle, where most Americans really are. Although I am not a huge fan of Clinton's due to whole the lying under oath thing, he was a master at that once he survived the first universal health care debacle and the Dems lost control of Congress. Obama hasn't figured that out yet, and as long as he keeps pushing his quasi-socialist agenda, nothing is going to get done until he's gone. It didn't work when the Dems controlled Congress, and it will only get worse when the Republicans take control of the House during the next election too.

4) to Redwatch ... your friends that are still unemployed being in a specialized field and therefore not finding jobs is absolutely their fault. They chose their line of work, and while they might be trying hard to find jobs 'in their field' there are still jobs to be had everywhere, and they could probably fairly easily find something that would pay them enough money to cover what they get for unemployment. Hate to be brutally harsh on the subject, but I got laid off from a job in 2006, and didn't take another full time job in my 'chosen' field until 2010. Not once did I collect an unemployment check. I picked up odd jobs and did some consulting in my specialized field to pay the bills. And yes, it was tough. I'm a big fan of blue_sphere's plan of 'make work' for those collecting unemployment benefits. Labor is a big component of any infrastructure job, and I know I personally felt better doing any kind of work during my idle time.

5) I believed before his election that regardless of what I thought about his policy, Obama was unqualified to be President. He didn't have enough time in the political arena, and he hadn't actually run anything large enough to prepare him to run the nation. IMO he has done nothing but prove it day after day since he's been in office. What the US really needs in a President right now is someone that understands how to run a large corporation and understands the financial markets and the economy without having to 'staff it out'. Priority one is to get our financial house in order, and that means tough choices, including raising taxes on everyone (not just the rich) and minimizing the size and scope of our government.

[HauteHippie]

2) I work with an investor group that committed $10 million to me in 2008 to buy a company that had a lot of potential to be turned around. Right before the election when it was clear Obama was going to win, they told me to stop on the purchase because they wanted to see what happened first. They were very concerned what would happen to taxes, and then after 'Obamacare' passed they were even more concerned about what those expenses would look like. This project was small, but would have created about 30 new permanent jobs in a city where unemployment is much higher than the average, and would have employed many temporary construction workers for another six months or so. This project is still on hold three years later, and may never get done. This is just my example, but I have to believe there are thousands more just like it. When the pundents talk about raising taxes on the rich killing job creation, they aren't kidding. It happens. But instability and uncertainty are just as big of factors. Business leaders right now have no clue what crazy idea the Obama administration is going to come up with next, and they are just circling the wagons to wait it out.

A friend I went to graduate school with established a financial services company several years back. He now employs roughly 160 people worldwide, most of which are in the USA. I do some work for him from time to time, and have gotten to see first hand how all this is directly affecting his business. He has been fined by regulators for things like hiring too fast, and has spent well over $1M defending himself in court over the last 5 years and now has to employ a team of lawyers full time to deal with FINRA compliance issues. And because of all this he has had to: (1) cut back on hiring even though he has been very eager to hire, (2) open offices offshore. In fact, the barriers to entry today are so much higher due to all the new regulations now in place compared to when he first established the business, that if he were trying to start it up today he'd simply be unable to do so. So the overhead is simply astounding. And on the issue of taxes, health care mandates, and whatever else might be coming down the pipe... there's no doubt in my mind that he's not too far from the breaking point and could be closing up shop in the US if much more gets piled on at this point. There are a few choice tropical islands where we could easily relocate and operate. And he's FAAAAAR from the only one. Demand for labor in the US is down (i.e. unemployment is high) in large part because the cost of labor is high. Simple economics. And this is precisely the message consistently coming from America CEOs. i.e. get government out of the way so we can hire.

[JoeyB]

Ya, I wonder if the money Clinton borrowed from Social Security that drove up the national debt was used to pay for sex?

I looked all over for that and all I found were right-wing blogs making that accusation. Blogs are just another opinion, as yours is. But not fact.

I said it then, and I haven't changed my mind. I would have bought a hooker and paid for Clinton's weekly BJ if it meant that he'd maintain the record level employment, record level growth, a balanced budget with a plan to pay down the National Debt by 2006, and the leadership to bring the first attacker of the Twin Towers to justice.

[blue_sphere]

On the topic of unemployment. I really want to make clear that I meant no offense to anyone!

What I am saying though is this... Why is obama throwing money at people that are unemployed vs creating jobs for them? Roosevelt did this back during the 1930's depression. There also was unemployment then too. Studies done showed that people that were working were happier and felt that they had a "purpose" with everything that is in disarray right now he instead choose to just extend unemployment.

This does not create jobs. All it does is put additional stress on an economy that is suffering terribly. I understand that republicans and "fox" are really pushing the issue, and I really believe its a valid question.

[Ronin]

...Why is obama throwing money at people that are unemployed vs creating jobs for them? Roosevelt did this back during the 1930's depression. There also was unemployment then too. Studies done showed that people that were working were happier and felt that they had a "purpose" with everything that is in disarray right now he instead choose to just extend unemployment.

...

Technically, it is not the governments job to create jobs. The 1930's were a different time and mindset. People were not 'too proud' to shovel $hit if they had to. As mentioned earlier, there are plenty of jobs (that the immigrants and illegals are doing) that are "too below us" given our current mindset. In short, things have not gotten desperate enough for say-- a Kodak Film Chemist to go pick blueberrys at Farmer Bob's Blueberry farm.

Also, this perception that unemployment makes for a good/lazy living is totally false. The MAX payout IIRC is $1400 a month or $18,000 a year. Honestly, I don't know many people who would be happy "getting by" on that. Feed a family of 4 and try and pay a mortgage on unemployment. Uhhh, No.