The Perfect Rep...

[Devedander]

Ok so I think the concensous is that the only way to get the perfect watch is to buy the gen... things like quality control and quality of workmanship come up as well as cost.

Well the way I see it, it doesn't quite add up... the obviously example being Rolex/Tudor.

Rolexes cost a buttload. Now there are only two possible explanations for this price:

The parts plus labor actually cost about that much.

or

There is a significant markup

Considering the Tudor is every bit as good as a Rolex, but doesn't cost nearly as much, it is pretty obvious it's the second.

So my question is, how can it be right to say that you can't get as good as the gen without buying the gen, if in reality the Tudor pretty much gets as good as a Rolex without costing as much as a Rolex?

Now I know some people say a rep is just a copy so can't be as good as the original. I ask why?

How are the parts made? They are stamped out of a machine.

If a machine can make it, another can make it just as well. I understand the inherant problems with die casting something or trying ot make a copy from a mold but it should be at least possible to make the same parts that are in gens just minus costs like copyrights and advertising.

At the very worst shouldn't we be able to get Rolex reps that are every bit as good as the original for about the price of a Tudor or less? I mean a Tudor is pretty much a Rolex for less isn't it?

It seems that to say the only way to get as good as the gen is to buy a gen may be true right now, but it's not a universal truth as in it is possible to get as good as a gen (in terms of aesthetics as well as functionality) without meeting the same cost criteria. In other words it's like saying it's impossible to get a 2 door Hummer. That's true. Not because you can't have one or it can't be done, but just because it's not available right now.

I mean honestly, take:

A few forum members with keen eyes

Some very good pictures of or actual gens (stolen, borrowed, who knows) or even just the movements from the gens

A metalw working factory suitable for building watch parts and some suppliers of parts

I don't necessarily think it can be done for sub $500 prices but the scam sites sell $1000+ reps all the time... there is obviously a market out there... I would imagine a pretty much perfect rep of most watches should be produceable for somewhere between $1000-3000 which would still be far cheaper than the gen and still have a market.

Sure it means a bigger risk to the manufacturer as if the watch doesn't sell they are out thousands instead of tens of dollars but it seems by now someone should have tried it a few times.

Other than that the only reason I can think of is that if the prices and profits got that high the gen manufacturers would take a stronger stance, but either way the "want perfection, get a gen" seems flawed...

What do you say?

Edited October 24, 2006 by Devedander

[mums-mums]

Ok so I think the concensous is that the only way to get the perfect watch is to buy the gen... things like quality control and quality of workmanship come up as well as cost.

Well the way I see it, it doesn't quite add up... the obviously example being Rolex/Tudor.

Rolexes cost a buttload. Now there are only two possible explanations for this price:

The parts plus labor actually cost about that much.

or

There is a significant markup

Considering the Tudor is every bit as good as a Rolex, but doesn't cost nearly as much, it is pretty obvious it's the second.

So my question is, how can it be right to say that you can't get as good as the gen without buying the gen, if in reality the Tudor pretty much gets as good as a Rolex without costing as much as a Rolex?

Now I know some people say a rep is just a copy so can't be as good as the original. I ask why?

How are the parts made? They are stamped out of a machine.

If a machine can make it, another can make it just as well. I understand the inherant problems with die casting something or trying ot make a copy from a mold but it should be at least possible to make the same parts that are in gens just minus costs like copyrights and advertising.

At the very worst shouldn't we be able to get Rolex reps that are every bit as good as the original for about the price of a Tudor or less?

It seems that to say the only way to get as good as the gen is to buy a gen may be true right now, but it's not a universal truth as in it is possible to get as good as a gen (in terms of aesthetics as well as functionality) without meeting the same cost criteria.

I mean honestly, take:

A few forum members with keen eyes

Some very good pictures of or actual gens (stolen, borrowed, who knows) or even just the movements from the gens

A metalw working factory suitable for building watch parts and some suppliers of parts

I don't necessarily think it can be done for sub $500 prices but the scam sites sell $1000+ reps all the time... there is obviously a market out there... I would imagine a pretty much perfect rep of most watches should be produceable for somewhere between $1000-3000 which would still be far cheaper than the gen and still have a market.

Sure it means a bigger risk to the manufacturer as if the watch doesn't sell they are out thousands instead of tens of dollars but it seems by now someone should have tried it a few times.

Other than that the only reason I can think of is that if the prices and profits got that high the gen manufacturers would take a stronger stance, but either way the "want perfection, get a gen" seems flawed...

What do you say?

As I see it, a "copy" of a Rolex could very well be as good as a gen Rolex. But, it would probably cost at least a Tudor. For my part I will not pay Tudor price to get a Rolex "copy". Would rather buy a Tudor gen og Omega gen. What I am looking for with reps is the 99% perfect for 9,9% of the gen price. And keeping the price of each rep down to a (very) few hundred $.

Well, it is a paradox in the question of the "perfect sub".......... The perfect replica of a gen -in the meaning of being exactly the same as the gen - do not exist. When it exists it is a gen - otherwise it would not be exactly the same.

[KB]

Rolex cost a lot because they sell every watch they make.

You will never see a perfect rep because they don't want to make one, always needs to be something to improve for the next gen.

Ken

[jeff g]

Perfect copy of a Gen for 250.00....not likely.

But a perfect replica - definitely.

The Noobmariner, the new TAG Link, some of the newer IWC's, all are pretty perfect as far as I am concerned.

[Devedander]

Well that all makes sense but there still has to be something said for the scam sites that sell "Perfect Swiss Replica 100% accurate even your jewler can't tell" for over $1500.

I mean honestly if they can sell those claims it shows the market is out there for those items at that price. That you and I woudn't pay for them is one thing, but if those sites are still around it means there are some sales to be made.

And as for being a gen if it's perfect I am not so sure... if I steal every machine from Rolex, press out the exact parts and hire a top grade watchsmith to assemble my watch, isn't it exactly the same as a the gen but still not? I mean to be a gen Rolex has to make it, so I now have an a perfect replica. Perfect being no flaws, replica being that it is not made by the actual company and thus not genuine.

The argument that they always want to leave room for another gen (like movies leaving room for another sequal) makes sounds logical at first but doesn't really make sense if you think about it. Becuase if they always want to leave room for an improvement, why do we see so many watches that don't recieve further improvements? I mean I guess someday something better could come out, but in all fairness I think there are quite a few watches that were never well repped and probably never will be because interest in them has wayned.

It makes far more business sense to make a tiered market (similar to what exists out there for reps and almost everything else in the world) whereby people like womart carry the cheapo reps, and places like perfect clones carry the top notch reps (example, not necessarily exactly) as one market does not necessarily cannibalize the other.

We have mums up there who wouldn't pay over $1k for a rep and we have rep buyers who own gens at 10x the cost but won't buy a rep becuause it's flawed. I can only imagine that many people (members of this forum included) would jump on a $5k flawless rep of a $15k watch (since they own the $15k gen).

So all theories considered the one that make the most sense is to do what the market does naturally in most instances, provide low quality, mid grade, and high quality at appropriate prices.

At worst rep makers have higher production costs but dont' have R&D and advertising to cover up, and at best reps might sell like hot cakes if they were good enough, thus removing the higher production due to low yeild factor.

I just can't see why it doesn't happen at least somewhat to this extent.

[deltatahoe]

for a simple example of why it is so hard to get everyone to get together to make a "perfect" replica -- check out the santos 100 dial project here. that thread has 95 posts and is (unfortunately) still not even close to making it happen.

[vlaletom]

The main reason you can't get a rep as good as a gen as nothing to do with cost of production of the gen.

First of all a 300$ watch is a very expensive watch compared to what most people are wearing.

I think we tend to forget that with reps because of the imediate comparaison with the gen price.

The reason is obvious, rep are illegal, wich means the condition of production can't be up to gen standars

You can't get the best engeniers, dedicate a production chain in a factory and let it reach the acceptable level of quality you get with the average product.

You don't whant lost in the early stage of product production with lot of prototype, and production adjustement

You can't rely on a constant suply of parts from chosen suplier ...

You can't rely on constant distributor.

You don't expect to build any long term image of your brand on the consumers market, and have no needs for durability in your product

And after all those production constraint you still deal with people that are buying illegals good and therfore can't expect much than what they are ofered, and can't expect long term waranty.

This a bit an exagerated "dark painting" but it's more or less the reality

[Devedander]

You can't get the best engeniers, dedicate a production chain in a factory and let it reach the acceptable level of quality you get with the average product.

You don't whant lost in the early stage of product production with lot of prototype, and production adjustement

You can't rely on a constant suply of parts from chosen suplier ...

You can't rely on constant distributor.

You don't expect to build any long term image of your brand on the consumers market, and have no needs for durability in your product

You may not be able to get a lot of those things, but those are more important when you are working on a new item. When you are just copying you can short cut many of those and still end up with a high end item.

For instance you need a skilled watchsmith to create a new type of movement, you only need someone generally good to take it apart, figure out how it goes together and assemble some copied parts to match.

I can make a circuit board that duplicates some one elses without anywhere near the engineering and creative knowledge they have.

And to some extend you do build brand and image loyalty... look at Paul and look at Josh... I know they aren't manufacturers but somewhere it does tie together.

And illegal doens't prevent top quality... if anything it makes it cheaper becuase again, you are not responsible for the majority of the expense that goes into a high quality item, you are responsible for the fabrication.

I would guess that Rolex spends near as much or even more on advetising, R&D and legal fees a year than it does on parts and labor in it's factories. Iillegal methods come with their own costs but nothing near what the legit businesses have to endure. And if illegal was really so hard to pull off we wouldn't see fake watches comming from the same factories in the same spot for years...

Iillegal can be tricky, but it can turn out top quality and sustain if done right...

Edited October 24, 2006 by Devedander

[aeroguy]

There is no doubt that Rolex is overpriced (to for what you get). Since they sell everything they make every year, you can't conclude that they're overpriced from a marketing standpoint.

I can tell you this; I've invested quite a lot in my rep LV and thought it was nearly indistinguishable (less the exagerated crystal coronet) but once I bought my gen... well, the fit and finish, not to mention the overall appearance are stunningly different. I have a harder time telling my rep ExpII (with its hand stack flaws) from my gen ExpII than I do the gen vs. rep LV.

I'm also quite taken with the genuine's +.7 sec/day time keeping.

[RageRover]

I think the Panerai reps out there now are 99%.

The case, the crown guard, the crown, the movement, the hands, the buckle...only thing is the dial. Dials are pretty close, but geting the exact font, the exact thickness of the font, exact color...that can be tricky. Just ask Davidsen

As far as cost goes, I think the base Panerais are about $4500.

The Panerai movement is a modified ETA which retails for about $60. Davidsen, JimmyZ and others offer perfect cases, crowns and crown guards for under $200.

So why is it that Panerai is $4500??

Is a $4500 Panerai better than a $350 Davidsen? IMHO, NO.

Not to start a major discussion on business and free market econ, like others said, Rolex sells all their watches. As does Panerai. They charge those prices becaue people pay them!

Like many industries, alot of the money you pay for a product goes mostly to things like advertising, product development, expansion of the company, etc.

Take the clothing industry. I know several people who manufacture for companies like the GAP. Maybe I have been lied to (although I have no reason not to believe what I have been told) in one factory there was cotton polo shirts being made for Walmart, while on the other side of the room shirts were being made for Armani (or some other high end retailer).

Most of the reps seen in this form are very high quality. Chances are, the cases are made using the same computer controlled milling machines that the gen factories use. And since many companies use ETA movements (although usually with a better finish), those are available as well in many reps.

So what is the difference between reps and the gens? Often, its small insignificant (to the function) things. Like the font on the date wheel is not exactly the same as the gen (i.e. IWC Ingi). And that is why reps will never be 100% the same...becsaue some font may be off, some logo may be a bit to small or large...but IMHO, the case and movements (if you are dealing with higher end reps) are usually pretty good.

[Devedander]

I agree with your statement of the $4500 Panerai vs the $350... in fact maybe those are indeed the perfect rep which proves it CAN be done.

The statement I have problems with is the one that says you can't have a 100% rep because if it was it would be a gen... that just doesn't sound right to me (as I pointed out above whereby if I have all the parts made with the same machines it' still not a gen because it wasn't made by the gen manfacturer).

But the last part you have there about why they will never be 100% that's not quite right... it's HOW they ARE not 100%... but that is not a reason why they will or can never be 100%, because the problems you list can be fixed for money, and not that much money... I mean take the ING... if I go BUY a machine to create the date wheels my overhead will be huge because I am making so few. I may have to spend HOURS scanning in the fonts, recreating them in vector art or whatever at significant cost...

But add that all up, then divide it by the number of sales I would likely get (heck the GB is already hitting around 50 and that's just here and now) and the added cost per watch would probably be less than $10.

Now figure that those making reps already have much of the gear and labor going, they don't suffer the massive overhead from small yields that I would... that would proabably add $5 or less to their cost...

So again I ask why that doesn't happen... it's certainly not impossible, not even difficult really...

I can understand why things like a perfect daytona are not feasable right now, but many watches suffer blemishes that are cosmetic only and or something that obviously could be fixed without much trouble (for instance if you are manufacturing a dial that mimics another watches pattern, and you are off by a few mm, then it can't be that hard to fix, after all you already mimiced a whole dial!! That's 95% of the work right there, just a little tweak more to make it perfect... that's like me carving a porsche out of wax then deciding I can't be bothered to carve the door handle...).