freddy333 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I'd think that if you asked Rolex, any authorized dealers, any watchmakers or any informed collectors if this watch that is all genuine with a service dial and replacement insert is a genuine Rolex, we'd get a more accurate answer. My watch has been inspected by 2 master watchmakers with Rolex accounts (1 of whom provided 1 of the 1036gmt parts). Both were surprised (jaws hit floors) when I revealed the watch's history. And this is precisely the problem. It is really only that tiny group of us who live & breath vintage Rolex who would even have the knowledge to classify such a watch as anything but gen. For watchmakers within the Rolex service network, if all the parts are genuine, the watch is deemed to be genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 But mate. It is NOT a service dial Exactly correct. A service dial is either a new or repainted gen dial plate containing details that purposely differ from the original (so as to differentiate it from an oem dial). My gen dial plate was repainted with the original details (so as to liken it to an oem dial). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 But mate. It is NOT a service dial I don't know the definition of a "service dial". This dial is a genuine dial that was refinished by the Rolex authorized service dial guy. Aren't service dials refinished original dials that needed to be replaced? And what of the DateJust example I asked? If someone has a genuine DateJust and sees a service dial they like, say it's a slate dial, or a dial with diamond markers or any of the custom dials that are on the market, and has it installed on his DateJust, is the DateJust now a "fake ass watch"? Of course not. It's still a genuine DateJust with a custom dial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Exactly correct. A service dial is either a new or repainted gen dial plate containing details that purposely differ from the original (so as to differentiate it from an oem dial). My gen dial plate was repainted with the original details (so as to liken it to an oem dial). Then it would be a 'custom' dial. right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I believe the point which people are making, is that even though the dial itself is genuine, even though it has been re-finished by someone who refinished dials for Rolex using Official Rolex inks ( very nice hook up, by the way ) the fact that it was re-finished to customer specification (different to how the dial originally looked), rather than at the behest of Rolex, is what is preventing people from considering it as a 'gen' dial. I suspect that had the dial been scratched/water-damaged/crumbled lume, and restored to how it would have originally looked, then opinions may be different... Just my .2c, you already know I think the watch is awesome, and a totally unique piece of work in our community [Edit to add] Re the DJ comparison... Someone takes a DJ with a custom-installed dial (regardless of it being factory stock) Rolex would still decline the service, as they would say the modification voided the warranty. Only exception for this, was if the person took the DJ to Rolex themselves and had the customization performed by Rolex themselves (like when Oliver Shepard had his 1655 modified to include the dial and hands from a GMT Master) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zeleni kukuruz Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Then it would be a 'custom' dial. right? Not exactly & this is 1 of those Rolex issues that does not lend itself to easy, black/white answers. Rolex generally sees service & custom dials as different animals. Service dials are made to Rolex specs (using Rolex dyes) either in-house (today) or by a select group of dial makers working under contract with Rolex (in the past). Rolex considers these genuine Rolex components (Rolex will generally accept a watch for service that contains a service dial). Custom dials are generally made using proprietary dye by unaffiliated dial refinishers or jewelers. For this reason, Rolex has, to the best of my knowledge, never accepted custom dials as genuine (Rolex will generally refuse to accept a watch for service that contains a custom dial). My dial does not really fall into either category, because it was made using Rolex dyes by a company that refinishes dials under contract with Rolex, but I requested that they reverse (customize) the colors. So the dial's designation is open to some degree of interpretation. While I believe that neither 'fake' nor 'oem' are appropriate, saying the dial is not 'genuine' is ridiculous. This is why I described the dial as a 'repainted gen dial', which is exactly what it is & why I continue to be amazed at how much (virtual) ink has been spent debating that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkryssare Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 TJ. That is exactly what I mean. I love the watch and I have the greatest respect for the work done. I just don't agree with the notion that it's a gen or semi gen watch and that it should have been posted over there. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygt Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 It literally is a black/white answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 TJ. That is exactly what I mean. I love the watch and I have the greatest respect for the work done. I just don't agree with the notion that it's a gen or semi gen watch and that it should have been posted over there. That's all. It wasn't posted on the gen forum to say that it was a gen watch (regardless of the component parts) it was posted as a joke to yank their collective chain, as that was the watch under discussion, and all too often, gen owners act like they are The Authority on watches, when truth be told, they know nothing about what they are wearing beyond the price tag The fact that the parts making up the watch being gen, as opposed to a regular purchassed replica, was just gravy [Edit to add] With regards they dial, while there is no denying that it is a customer [requested] modification rather than an 'out of the pack' piece of OEM stock, the fact that the modification was carried out by The Guy, using The Ink, well, it might as well be gen It's certainly closer to gen than any other piece of dial refinishing in the community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I believe the point which people are making, is that even though the dial itself is genuine, even though it has been re-finished by someone who refinished dials for Rolex using Official Rolex inks ( very nice hook up, by the way ) the fact that it was re-finished to customer specification (different to how the dial originally looked), rather than at the behest of Rolex, is what is preventing people from considering it as a 'gen' dial. I suspect that had the dial been scratched/water-damaged/crumbled lume, and restored to how it would have originally looked, then opinions may be different... Just my .2c, you already know I think the watch is awesome, and a totally unique piece of work in our community Exactly my point. A genuine damaged PN exotic 6263 dial gets refinished it still is a genuine PN exotic dial. However refinishing a genuine silver dial 6263 to look like a PN, even by a Rolex authorized refinisher, doesn't make it a PN dial and therefore 10x more valuable, Collectors wouldn't call it a gen PN dial either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) Anyways like I said before.....you call it gen or not if you like. Doesn't make you any less of a watch collector with great taste in my eyes Edited November 25, 2011 by Akira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 [Edit to add] Re the DJ comparison... Someone takes a DJ with a custom-installed dial (regardless of it being factory stock) Rolex would still decline the service, as they would say the modification voided the warranty. Only exception for this, was if the person took the DJ to Rolex themselves and had the customization performed by Rolex themselves (like when Oliver Shepard had his 1655 modified to include the dial and hands from a GMT Master) OK, lets say the worst, it is a custom dial repainted by someone other than Rolex Authorized, (though freddy's was done by a Rolex authorized dial refinisher) and the DateJust voids the warranty. Does that make the watch a "fake ass Rolex"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Exactly my point. A genuine damaged PN exotic 6263 dial gets refinished it still is a genuine PN exotic dial. However refinishing a genuine silver dial 6263 to look like a PN, even by a Rolex authorized refinisher, doesn't make it a PN dial and therefore 10x more valuable, Collectors wouldn't call it a gen PN dial either I guess this is the one instance where Gen dial base + Gen factory + Gen inks doesn't = Gen dial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 doesn't make it a PN dial and therefore 10x more valuable, Collectors wouldn't call it a gen PN dial either No, they wouldn't, and no one here said any different from the start about freddy's watch. freddy's watch is a genuine Rolex 6542. It NOT a genuine Rolex White Dial Pan Am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 OK, lets say the worst, it is a custom dial repainted by someone other than Rolex Authorized, (though freddy's was done by a Rolex authorized dial refinisher) and the DateJust voids the warranty. Does that make the watch a "fake ass Rolex"?? In my scheme of things*, certainly not, but, I would certainly understand the snoots on a gen forum thinking it was, as I can understand that Rolex would say it was no longer in warranty *I think it's open knowledge that my scheme of things runs to 'less than conventional' ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 In my scheme of things*, certainly not, but, I would certainly understand the snoots on a gen forum thinking it was, as I can understand that Rolex would say it was no longer in warranty *I think it's open knowledge that my scheme of things runs to 'less than conventional' ideas I don't think any 6542 watches are in warranty. Would the Rolex factory service the DateJust with the custom dial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) I don't think any 6542 watches are in warranty. Would the Rolex factory service the DateJust with the custom dial? Joey you don't get the difference. Custom is not the same as imitating something existing. The gen 6542 dial is printed to "look" like a white dial....which it isn't.....therefore it's a imitation/fake/replica/homage wtf you want to call it. Printing 'Comex' on a 5512 dial doesn't make it a 'Comex' dial, but a imitation of it. Writing 'JoeB is a smartass' on it, makes it a custom 5512 dial though. That's the big big big big big difference! Edited November 25, 2011 by Akira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 So, your smart-assed answer aside, you're saying that Rolex will service the DateJust that was altered with a custom dial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) So, your smart-assed answer aside, you're saying that Rolex will service the DateJust that was altered with a custom dial? Rolex SA Geneva wouldn't touch that hypothetical DateJust with a 10foot pole Edited November 25, 2011 by Akira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zeleni kukuruz Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 OMG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I don't think any 6542 watches are in warranty. Would the Rolex factory service the DateJust with the custom dial? I may be wrong, but as above, I don't believe they would service it. Unless, as with Oliver Shepard's 1655, the Rolex Factory did the dial swap themselves and had the papers to verify it. Anything other than that, like with aftermarket parts on a car, they would say the warranty was violated and wash their hands of it (Not that I agree with that mindset by any stretch if the imagination, but I understand how the corporate mindset would apply itself) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Curcio Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 hmmm... the dial was intentionally made to replicate a dial it is not, even if it is made using a gen dial, it is considered a replica. If the dial would have been black it would be considered a franken. Let's not split hairs...the watch in question is a replica, because it replicates something it is not, hence the word fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 I may be wrong, but as above, I don't believe they would service it. I checked it out and that is correct, a custom dialed watch would be refused service from Rolex. Nonetheless, the DateJust is still a genuine DateJust but with a custom dial. If they are not still genuine, then there are whole bunch of watches being sold as genuine when they are not. Of course it's all moot, as freddy would not want a service from Rolex. The point I made is that freddy's watch is a genuine Rolex, as is the DateJust, but with a replacement insert and repainted dial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 You guys are way out of my league on this debate. But it seems to me that to characterize the watch as a gen 6542 with refinished dial is certainly reasonable. Especially in light of the fact that so many "vintage" Rolexes are clearly similarly constructed. Obviously to characterize it as an original Albino GMT is inaccurate. My takeaway from this back and forth is that I am staying away from gen vintage Rolexes other than those from original owners. You have no idea what you are buying. Out of curiousity, will Rolex certify vintage rolexes as "gen" anymore. I know the guys at the NY service center won't service them anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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