vandal.tbh Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I need some help/advice. I'm looking at two models of the PAM 177 from trustytime, they are seemingly identical but one has a Unitas 18,800bph movement and the other has a 21,600bph Unitas movement. The 21,600 is $70 more than the other. Is it worth the money to get the high beat movement? Thanks! Edited January 12, 2012 by vandal.tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Don't know that model off the top of my head. But here is the general rule. Small seconds (subdial) looks smooth at 18,8. If the watch has long seconds then you want to have a 28,8 movt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandal.tbh Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Don't know that model off the top of my head. But here is the general rule. Small seconds (subdial) looks smooth at 18,8. If the watch has long seconds then you want to have a 28,8 movt. Yea, it's got a small seconds hand. I was thinking that it probably looked smooth either way. I guess it's really not worth $70 more for the faster beat rate. Here's the watch: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poretl Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Don't know that model off the top of my head. But here is the general rule. Small seconds (subdial) looks smooth at 18,8. If the watch has long seconds then you want to have a 28,8 movt. so what you mean is that 18.8, if the watch has the small seconds, is enough and the minimum acceptable when is has the large seconds is 28.8 in order for the seconds to look smooth? So the 21.6 will nto do much in that respect but it will keep time better? Will it at least do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poretl Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Yea, it's got a small seconds hand. I was thinking that it probably looked smooth either way. I guess it's really not worth $70 more for the faster beat rate. Here's the watch: That's the 177, right? I tried it this watch on, the gen that is, and it looks amazing! Especially with the OEM strap that comes with it. It looks similar to the one in your picture, brown croc. The titanium is very impressive on the wrist and it's lightweight too for everyday use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 so what you mean is that 18.8, if the watch has the small seconds, is enough and the minimum acceptable when is has the large seconds is 28.8 in order for the seconds to look smooth? So the 21.6 will nto do much in that respect but it will keep time better? Will it at least do that? Time keeping is not dependent on bpm, at least between Asian reps. As I understand it, the only choices you have are 18,8 21 28, 8 33,6 33,6 is the zenith el primero movement, first automatic chronograph and used in vintage daytonas. Unfortunately no rep The more bpm, the smoother the seconds hand rotates, it still ticks but if the increment in which it ticks is smaller and smaller the eye perceives this as a smooth sweeping motion. The perceived smoothness via your eye is also dependent on the size of the hand. Think about a pie chart. If the pie chart is very small the individual sections look crammed and on top of each other. If you blow that chart up it appears to have larger differences in the categories. If you think of a watch hand moving around that pie chart a short hand has little ground to cover. A large hand running along the outer edge of the circle has a longer distance to cover. The longer distance, the end of the watch hand looks smoother if it's number of ticks in getting from point a to point b is increased. Most people's impression of a smooth sweeping seconds is rolex. Modern Rolex movements beat at 28,8 — 18k bpm will look more ticky. My observation as a practical matter is when your looking at small seconds, even 18k bpm looks smooth. If you have a chronograph Pam with 18k then your small seconds looks smooth. If you engage the chronograph then the large seconds hand will appear more ticky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centaur Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 If they're the recent H Factory releases go with the updated and higher beat rate one. There have been multiple reports of the slower movements crapping out quickly so it's up to you to decide whether a little extra investment is worth it to have a watch that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandal.tbh Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) If they're the recent H Factory releases go with the updated and higher beat rate one. There have been multiple reports of the slower movements crapping out quickly so it's up to you to decide whether a little extra investment is worth it to have a watch that works. That's exactly what I wanted to know. It is the new H-Factory release. I'd rather spend a little extra money and get a more reliable movement. I figured for $70 extra, it should be a better watch, not just different. Thanks for all the replies! Edited January 12, 2012 by vandal.tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korneevy Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 From my expirience, HB ones have a better power reserve by about 6-8 hrs over LB ones, at least across my collections of 10+ Unitas-powerred reps...other than this, I cant see any advantages and the swepp thing is really up for a debate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Honestly, if it is a Genuine Unitas/ETA 18k, I would take it over the faster beat Asian movements. I have two Gen 6497 slow beats that are rock solid and close to COSC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Here is where you will hear opinions all over the map. My basic philosophy is as follows re: servicing and or upgrading mov'ts. Assuming we are talking a situation where the movement doesn't not enhance the rep, big seconds, Me personally I do not service nor do I upgrade. We can debate the merits. Clearly a mechanical movt needs to be serviced for a long life, but really, your not going to have this watch for 30yrs. If you become a frequent member, I give you six months tops before you sell it and get something else. Also gen ETA is better than Chinese movts. But that would assume they are gen eta. I do not think they are. Others disagree, there is a good discussion in my sig. At best they are used, ebauche, or quality control defects and are still not properly oiled so, I'm just not convinced their failure rate is better or worse. Unless you point out a specific batch of watches that might have an issue. I play the odds. For me it's been wildly successful. Since you could probably buy and have installed another 6497 for 70$ and since the failure rate is not 50% in the long run you will be spending a lot more and may or may not be able to recoup that value. In 7 yrs, I've had @70 pieces or so come through my hands and have only had 3 movement issues, 1 was a failure. Others were minor. I have never had any problems with the hand winds. enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandal.tbh Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Honestly, if it is a Genuine Unitas/ETA 18k, I would take it over the faster beat Asian movements. I have two Gen 6497 slow beats that are rock solid and close to COSC. They are both Asian Unitas 6497's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 what you need to look for on these 177 is the finish of the movement. The ones with platinum plated look at lot more gen like than the older ones. AFAIK that kind of finish only comes on the 6497-2 (high beat). I'm not 100% sure the H factory is using that though. I bought one of those movement from my dealer and replaced it on my 177 franken. The low beat finish is too dark and a dead give away for those display caseback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandal.tbh Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 what you need to look for on these 177 is the finish of the movement. The ones with platinum plated look at lot more gen like than the older ones. AFAIK that kind of finish only comes on the 6497-2 (high beat). I'm not 100% sure the H factory is using that though. I bought one of those movement from my dealer and replaced it on my 177 franken. The low beat finish is too dark and a dead give away for those display caseback. Says it's platinum plated. Here's the link to the one I'm looking at: http://www.yourtrustytime.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_49&products_id=8784 I just love the way the watch looks and want to get the best one.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikellem Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Here is where you will hear opinions all over the map. My basic philosophy is as follows re: servicing and or upgrading mov'ts. Assuming we are talking a situation where the movement doesn't not enhance the rep, big seconds, Me personally I do not service nor do I upgrade. We can debate the merits. Clearly a mechanical movt needs to be serviced for a long life, but really, your not going to have this watch for 30yrs. If you become a frequent member, I give you six months tops before you sell it and get something else. Also gen ETA is better than Chinese movts. But that would assume they are gen eta. I do not think they are. Others disagree, there is a good discussion in my sig. At best they are used, ebauche, or quality control defects and are still not properly oiled so, I'm just not convinced their failure rate is better or worse. Unless you point out a specific batch of watches that might have an issue. I play the odds. For me it's been wildly successful. Since you could probably buy and have installed another 6497 for 70$ and since the failure rate is not 50% in the long run you will be spending a lot more and may or may not be able to recoup that value. In 7 yrs, I've had @70 pieces or so come through my hands and have only had 3 movement issues, 1 was a failure. Others were minor. I have never had any problems with the hand winds. enjoy But pho, You never kept watches long enough to really have a failure. To say that the Chinese reps don't have a high failure is wrong, if you have for 2 years or more;) MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Says it's platinum plated. Here's the link to the one I'm looking at: http://www.yourtrust...roducts_id=8784 I just love the way the watch looks and want to get the best one.. yep, that's the one. Get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandal.tbh Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 yep, that's the one. Get it. Thanks! I just sent the order for that one and the Rolex Sea Dweller Ultimate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Mike, close, but - my current collection are pretty old. Plus I have several w family . And in the old days all we had were Asian in handwinds. And never. Got 1 complaint about failed movmt. I did some cursory searching on recent failures. Before posting my comment. I didn't see anything that I would consider that. If reps were failing at a high rate there would be a lot of talk. 6:00 daytonas iwc portugese, 6497 no running seconds. I stand by my playing the odds philosophy. I know others disagree, that's why I mentioned it. Platinum plating is a different issue. I'm pretty sure it's more likely for me to be struck by lightning vs running into someone who would be able to discern that as a "tell" and that's not considering they wouldn't have the opportunity to see it cause I'd be wearing it. but that is up to the buyer and what they value. I put a premium on stuff I can see. I could give a crap about what other people might see. Pulling off a rep as a gen is more about how the wearer acts not about cosmetic flaws. But, i have also learned that understanding why people make decisions about money is never easily understood without a very intense an generally unattainable amount of info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 I fail to see why so many worry about the 'back side' of our reps. How often are you taking off your watch and handing it to some stranger. I would rather the visible side, when worn, be 100% perfect-- even if it meant these had sterile movements and/or casebacks. Just my .02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandal.tbh Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 I fail to see why so many worry about the 'back side' of our reps. How often are you taking off your watch and handing it to some stranger. I would rather the visible side, when worn, be 100% perfect-- even if it meant these had sterile movements and/or casebacks. Just my .02. I love looking at the movement. I don't imagine I'll be just taking off my watch and grabbing some stranger on the road and saying "hey, check out my watch". I like the exhibition back because I like to look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 I love looking at the movement. I don't imagine I'll be just taking off my watch and grabbing some stranger on the road and saying "hey, check out my watch". I like the exhibition back because I like to look at it. +1 Yes! I buy/mod my watches for me, not for others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 +1 Yes! I buy/mod my watches for me, not for others. Same here, same here. Just saying if given the choice between a 100% perfect outward facing watch and a 0% perfect backside -vs- a 80% Perfect All Around, I would probably go for the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 +1 Yes! I buy/mod my watches for me, not for others. This is the #1 thing I try to get newbs to buy into. It really should be our motto. I will go out of my way to help an enthusiast. But if it's someone that wants to look cool with a "the best" submariner. Well, I will answer a question or 2 but, that's not why I'm here and that's not something useful to foster the forum. You gotta have that crazy love. .. I am totally amazed at mechanical movements - just amazed. More amazed than my huge HDTV I think finding yourself in this watch world takes trial and error, it takes adjusting to what's available vs your grail. I need to update my thoughts on the forum thread to talk about this concept. And to point out 1. Dealers are not and never will be walmart or amazon.com. 2 we are not here to support dealers. Im not here to convince you that reps are awesome and great quality. I'll help you on the journey, but not to puff up what reps are. Ii had to tell a newb this week that some people are not cut out for reps. I encouraged him along to deal with some issues. Showed him how the process works, but he kept coming back. I think he will love reps, but, he needed to sink or swim and not use me as s flotation device There will be spring bar issues and clasp issues and a piece of dirt on the dial. [censored] happens find a way to fix it. It's part of the adventure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig88 Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 I have a LB movement which still looks amazing. Anyone that know's pams really well will be able to tell its fake from the front before they turn it over. But to people that don't know pams they will think the display back is gen as it looks really fancy and extravagant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 I have a LB movement which still looks amazing. Anyone that know's pams really well will be able to tell its fake from the front before they turn it over. But to people that don't know pams they will think the display back is gen as it looks really fancy and extravagant. What is the frontal flaws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.