FAQ: To service or not to service? My thoughts.

[Rolexman]

I regularly get PM's of members asking me whether they should or should not service their movement. I have a standard text that I always copy-paste and thought it would be nice to share it with everyone. Please remember this is my personal opinion. It is based on servicing dozens of movements ranging from handwinds and 28xx series up to the A7750.

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Most of our replica's run accurate straight from the factory. No worries! You will most of the time receive quality check pictures from your dealer that will include a Timegrapher picture. That will show that your watch runs accurate (for now).

In regards to service there are some things to take into account but mainly it is reliability. See, it all depends on how you look at things. In my book there are 3 different versions on how to buy and own a replica.

I want a replica that looks like a genuine and....

a. don't care if it is inferior in quality, optics and reliability. I buy a $30 cheap Chinese replica.

b. uses almost the same quality parts and looks as accurate as possible. I buy a high-end replica.

c. uses almost the same quality parts, looks accurate and is very reliable. I buy a high-end replica and spend some extra money for a service.

Problem is that all of our replica's are assembled in Chinese sweat shops with no or poor quality control. Remember that if the assembling and control was on par with Swiss watches they would never be able to sell these watches at these prices. The people assembling these watches aren't highly trained watchmakers in white coats. It are mostly production-line Chinese workers in dark and dirty rooms that have to spit out watches in a high pace. No time for proper quality control, cleaning off finger prints, following the ETA oiling charts etc.(for example)

The design of most of the Chinese clone/ copy movements are good and on par with the Swiss version (exceptions not taken into account). But it is the assembly and lack in quality control that makes these reps less reliable than it's Swiss counterpart.

So to conclude. It depends on how much you care about reliability. Do you buy a replica not knowing which state the movement is in and take your chances? If it runs you're lucky and if it breaks you'll see if it can be fixed. If not you just buy a new one. Or do you buy a replica and spend some extra bucks to get your movement in top notch condition so it will last you a life time when regularly checked and serviced. Compare it with taking your car in for a service. It gives you the piece of mind of a reliable car, not just a good looking one.

Hope I could contribute

Mark

[FxrAndy]

Mark and excelent explanation I would add that when you get the QC pic the amplitude says more than ring plus minus a few seconds a day. The amplitude will indicate the state of the movement and how the power is getting from the main spring to the escapement

[RWG Technical]

Very good info.

My recommendations are always, are you planning on keeping the watch. If yes, then consider it for servicing. If no, then wear the watch and enjoy, when it fails, get another.

Experience has proven that a properly serviced movement, will perform as it should, and if serviced every 5 years or so, will not wear out.

Did you ever wonder why watch owners only contact the watchmaker after the watch has developed problems or stopped running altogether? There aren't very many owners who think preventative maintenance and send them in before they have issues...

[ogladio]

Thanks for the knowledge sharing, much appreciated! How about the time factor, i.e if I own a watch and develop affection for it - does it make life harder for you guys (read, more expensive service) if actions are taken first when time keeping goes worse?

[Rolexman]

Very good info.

Did you ever wonder why watch owners only contact the watchmaker after the watch has developed problems or stopped running altogether? There aren't very many owners who think preventative maintenance and send them in before they have issues...

Thanks. I do think that the price of a proper service VS the price of the replica makes it hard to justify for some people. If it's not broken don't fix it (read: spend money on it). That's one way to look at it and I don't blame them.

Mark and excelent explanation I would add that when you get the QC pic the amplitude says more than ring plus minus a few seconds a day. The amplitude will indicate the state of the movement and how the power is getting from the main spring to the escapement

Thanks Andy.

I partially agree with you. Amplitude and the way it (inter)acts with the rest of the movement has sort of become a life quest for me. I found that most of our reps have bone dry main spring barrel walls. This will lead to more torque from the main spring and a good amplitude rating. However it also ads more wear to the main spring bridle and barrel wall which in turn will lead to irregular time keeping en power reserve over time. Also the amplitude rating can be fine on unserviced reps but it could very well be that dirt and over-oiling contaminates the movement over time, and thus effect it's time keeping. The timegrapher picture captures only a moment in time.

On the other hand, properly serviced movements with a greased barrel wall can have a lower amplitude. The grease makes the bridle tend to slip earlier. Thus giving off less torque to the gear train, creating a slightly lower amp. So the paradox is that a serviced movement could have a lower amplitude than a non-serviced movement. But due to the fact that a serviced movement is clean and properly oiled it runs more accurate, is more reliable and far less prone to wear.

So yes, in the normal watch world the amplitude rating indeed says something about the state the movement is in. But in the replica world......

Thanks for the knowledge sharing, much appreciated! How about the time factor, i.e if I own a watch and develop affection for it - does it make life harder for you guys (read, more expensive service) if actions are taken first when time keeping goes worse?

It all depends on the sort of problems that effect the time keeping. Broken parts? gummed up jewels? over oiling? Normally it will only cost more if something is broken.

[Adeodatus]

Generally speaking if the amplitude in a rep is between 270 and 310 there is nothing to worry about. The closer to 300 the better, though. Am I wrong?

[FxrAndy]

That would be my thinking i get warning bells when i see movemets with an amplitude below 250

[kramerica2]

I think that it's also a matter of how much more would it cost to fix a non-serviced movement compared to servicing a working movement. By cost I mean money, time and effort.

Let's assume that you want to keep the watch for at least 5 years.

So, taking preventing measures you would pay the money and hassle no matter what, and probably enjoy it for the 5 years. Still, you have a chance, let's say 10%, that you would have some problems that you would have to fix.

Taking the risk route would mean that you do nothing until something is wrong. Let's say that there is a 70% chance that it would happen considering the poor QC and assembly conditions.

Now, X is how much that a preventive service would cost, and Y is how much that fixing a non serviced movement would cost.

Preventive route cost: X + 0.1*Y (10% probability that something would go wrong after service).

Risk route cost: 0.7*Y + 0.1*Y = 0.8*Y

Now, obviously I made some rough guesses here, and some would say that peace of mind is priceless.. But, at least for me, I'm probably in the ball park.

So, if trying to calculate mathematically, it all comes down to how much would a fix (Y) cost compared to a regular service (X). Here, the experts could chime in. My hunch is that the difference isn't that big. The fixed costs are much greater than the variables, and are pretty much the same in both cases.

According to my rough assumptions, only if fixing costs are more than 150% higher than regular servicing, than, financially, it would be wise to go the preventive route.

[Rolexman]

Here, the experts could chime in. My hunch is that the difference isn't that big.

Cool calculation. What is your occupation?

But you are right. The difference isn't that big. IMO it all comes down to emotions. Knowing that your movement is clean an reliable gives some people piece of mind and provides an extra dimension to owning a replica. The service brings the rep one step closer to a 'genuine' stadium. For some that is important. Like the extra 0.01mm length of a genuine second hand compared to the rep on some watches ....

That would be my thinking i get warning bells when i see movemets with an amplitude below 250

I've had freshly serviced movements that ran at 260. Mainly some 28xx clones and occasionally an A7750. Nothing wrong with that. E.G on an 7750 ETA states an amplitude between 200~310 to be ok.

When it comes to our reps amplitude deviations can be caused by a number of things. Main spring torque, alignment of pallet stones, poising of the hair spring, end shake, barrel wall finishing, magnetism etc. Sometimes you can make some adjustments and get a higher amp but If you don't want to spend 10 hours and up on overhauling and adjusting an Asian movement you just have to live with the fact they are not manufactured up to Swiss standards. It are Asian movements with Asian tolerances and ditto finishing....and these tolerances and finishing can also effect the amplitude. Like I said, amplitude isn't really an indicator for the state the movement is in. With genuine watches, yes. With replica's, no!

I would pick a freshly serviced Asian movement that runs at 260 over a non-serviced one that runs at 310 any day!

[kbh]

I've noticed that you can have very decent amplitude in one position and have it drop down to unacceptable in a different position. What causes this? Even on a recently serviced but older movement.

Also, what are the odds of something actually breaking rather than just getting gummed up and dirty by not servicing on a timely manner. My guess would be more often than not, it would just require proper cleaning to bring it back into spec.

[FxrAndy]

In my mind i dont wait untill the oil in my car is all gummed up until i change it as more wear occors with old oil

[DeeKa]

In my mind i dont wait untill the oil in my car is all gummed up until i change it as more wear occors with old oil

But if the service (in your example changing oil) is at the same cost as a replacement movement (your motor) the question is, if at any point it would be economic to do preventive service. At least my watchmaker charges around €150.- for servicing an A7750 and that is pretty much what Cousins has it listed for.

Dee

[redwatch]

Another awesome post that should definitely be pinned!! Thanks!

[Rolexman]

But if the service (in your example changing oil) is at the same cost as a replacement movement (your motor) the question is, if at any point it would be economic to do preventive service. At least my watchmaker charges around €150.- for servicing an A7750 and that is pretty much what Cousins has it listed for.

Great analysis. It indeed is hard to justify. But IMO so are most mods we do to our reps.

I've noticed that you can have very decent amplitude in one position and have it drop down to unacceptable in a different position. What causes this? Even on a recently serviced but older movement.

Also, what are the odds of something actually breaking rather than just getting gummed up and dirty by not servicing on a timely manner. My guess would be more often than not, it would just require proper cleaning to bring it back into spec.

Amp deviations in different positions can be caused by numerous of things. Some drop is normal in upright positions due to more friction of the pivots in the jewels. Extreme deviations between horizontal and vertical are mostly caused by badly adjusted regulator pins or improper oiling. However the isochronism makes that the amplitude doesn't effect the time keeping. So whether your watch runs at 200 upright and 300 amp flat. The rate should be nearly the same.

Another awesome post that should definitely be pinned!! Thanks!

Thanks mate. I take that as a great compliment.

[dluddy]

Great thread. The car analogy is a good one. Keeping it and expect it to run properly - change the oil.

Getting rid of it in a few years - roll the dice.

[URkuk]

I believe the fact that our reps are assembled by non skilled workers who must meet a quota is one of the main reasons to have immediate service performed on a rep you wish to keep. Rob recently serviced my new 390 fresh from Josh and found a cracked jewel which he believed would have eventually destroyed the movement. Had I decided to wear it for a few months prior to having it serviced I may have lost the watch...

[ogladio]

Just love this thread!! The OP is excellent, but beyond that I think you Rolexman excel in giving kind, clear answers stuffed with knowledge. Somebody pin this already!

[coolfire]

Nice stuff, Mark!

Since i got to know my local watchmaker, I never fail to get my new watches to his spa.... and it has become somewhat of a ritual.

[Quiglda]

Love this thread.. Considering the length of time and hassle to get a new rep i think doing PM makes sense. Any good thread to recommend on pm procedures. I am a novice so I will attempt on a low cost rep. Or is this clearly a watchmaker task. I think it is a good way to learn

[Rolexman]

Bump for the new members.

[davylloyd]

Great thread. The car analogy is a good one. Keeping it and expect it to run properly - change the oil.

Getting rid of it in a few years - roll the dice.

So, if you follow the analogy, and your car is worth $20,000, you'd be happy to pay $15,000 to get it serviced?

[rickdangerous]

lol good point

[panerai153]

I have been pretty consistent in getting my reps serviced before a problem occurs. I usually send them to The Zigmeister for a service and lume, as I have never been impresed with the lume on any of my reps. I factor in the cost of service as part of the price. I pretty much use the same rule of thumb that rolexman states in his post. If I am not sure, I wait, If I'm sort of torn between selling or keeping, I still wait, but If I plan on keeping a watch, it gets serviced.

Another thing to consider, if you have reps that you really like and plan to keep, and they happen to have real Swiss ETA movements, I would seriously favor having them serviced. one reason being, in the very near future, genuine Swiss ETA movements will become impossible to source, outside of buying a donor watch and using the movement. Swatch is goimg to shut down the sale of movements completely to all watchmakers outside the Swatch group. And until such time as the Chinese movements come up to the quality standards of the Swiss movements, i would still prefer Swiss. Even if the movements were available, why have all the hassle of sending off your broken watch and hoping that the problem isn't a major one.Get it serviced properly and you should be good to go for years.

[Mazdamx594]

Hello! I am a new member, and a long time watch enthusiast who has yet to make a purchase. I've done all the standard research, reviewing the trusted dealer sections, and figuring out which model would be best. However I ran across this thread and it caught my attention because the longevity of watches is one of the main things about the hobby. I had assumed that if I purchased a rep with a gen eta movement I could avoid many of the qc issues associated with Asian movements. Now I did read the whole thread and it seems many people seem to agree that you STILL need to service eta's before you wear them to ensure you don't do damage.

So, as someone who respects watches, and who wants to preserve any investment I make I had a few questions. I apologize in advance if these have been discussed before, but it promise I tried to use the search feature and was unsuccessful. First, am I correct in assuming I must service a gen Swiss eta? Second, who would you recommend in the US? And finally, what do you think is a fair price for such a service?

Thank you so much in advance for any insight you can provide and I hope to be able to return the favor one day.

Best,

Chris

[lfovco]

Yes, you have to service it, no matter what movement your rep

came with. You can of course risk it and have the movement eventually die.

But the weakest part off the rep is not the movement but the threads in screw down crowns. They will die before your movement and in most cases are not replaceable. So your rep will be only good to sell off for parts.

That said, you can make rep choices based on that.

Any crappy Asian 2824 that comes in reps can be replaced with a brand new Seagull 2824.

And serviced will last you a life time.