Are we going crazy?

[panerai153]

Cc33 they practice those prices just because some of us can afford paying it. If a community of a 20.000 members send them a mail signed by all memebers saying that we are not ok to pay those prices anymore then they will stop for sure! I think that phong could sell 3x more cases if the price was around 300 usd. Then he would make even more profits!

 

Possibly the idea of  a group buy is feasible, but it would probably have to be within a limited range of cases.

 

AFA the 20,000 member community, those numbers are "phantom' numbers. Every   person who has ever registered and become a member here is still on the membership list. just go and look through a couple of pages of "Members" .99% are not active, some never were, some were for a while and dropped out, but very few stay and are active. Look at the Rolex community here, how many folks post on a regular basis 50, 100, not more. how many of those are active modders who are looking for projects using very high end/gen parts, maybe 50-75% of the total active Rolex forum members, so what you are looking at is a good nucleus for a group buy, but not nearly enough to sway the suppliers with  any sort of petition wiyh veiled threats of a boycott.

Those guys get what they do, because they have a product that folks are willing to pay their prices to purchase. The market sets the prices, if they weren't selling parts they would drop their prices, but as long as enough folks are willing to pay their price, they will stay where they are or increase.

[sneed12]

 more than a 1000 usd! Why? Because we are willing to pay that price.

 

Yes, just like anything else. If you have a problem with it, don't buy.

Just read that some dealers are asking almost 2000 usd for a 6538 case + dial. Pieces that are made in Vietnam or China for probably less than 100's of dollars!!

 

So make your own, price them cheaper, and reap the rewards.

 

What's that, you say? You're not willing to invest the time and money to learn how to do this, or run the legal risks of producing counterfeit goods? Well I guess you're just going to have to pay what they're asking, then.

[automatico]

"Phong uses a stone tumbler to add wear/patina to his cases. It's a mostly automatic process. His labor involves putting the case into the tumbler barrel along with some type of polishing medium (I would love to know exactly what he is using........so if anyone knows, please let us know) & turning the motor on. Then, he lets the tumbler do its work for several hours to a few days, depending on the amount of 'wear' he wants the case to have. Once the case has the right amount of wear, he takes it out, engraves it (if required, which takes no more than a few minutes) & ships it off.

The cases themselves, as has been discussed many times on rwg before, cost no (or very little) more to make than the average replica case, because that is all they are - replica cases. The quality of the steel is the same, the manufacturing technique is the same, even the lack of QC is the same. The only area where they may differ is in how much effort was spent to match the dimensions of the gen they used as a model. And, considering the amount of variability (lack of dimensional consistency) of all of these premium cases, they are likely made in the same factories along side the average Canal Street replicas.

Frankly, I doubt it costs more than $10 to make any of these cases. Engraving, which just about any jewelry store can do, a few dollars more. Phong, Natalie & others selling these outrageously priced rep cases are simply pocketing huge profits. Now, I will grant that those who operate in the US or EU are entitled to make a bit more profit due to the legal hazards involved in their business. But selling rep cases & dials for more than $300 is really outrageous. But, as they say, value is what a buyer is willing to pay &, when it comes to watches, especially vintage Rolex watches, neurotic WIS types (like me) are not always playing with a full deck."

 

I agree.

 

I also know this...I have taken a few low priced cases and turned them into first class examples (by my standards anyway) of what I wanted them to be with a few hours of intense machine work. I do not have an engraving machine but do have a miniature lathe and milling machine. This type of 'hands on' work is feasable only when you have the time to do it and do not plan to make any $$ by selling detailed cases etc. For production jobs (and profit) you would need a cad/cam setup of some sort.

 

Take the lowly DW 5513 case for example...they are around $125 and a genuine movement/dial will fit but the DW bezel is not too hot and the case neck etc is not exactly genspec. I tried a few different brands of 25-19 crystals and found the Clark bezel kit and Clark #19 crystal worked Ok on these cases. I had to machine the id of the crystal retaining ring a hair to get it to fit over the Clark 19 just right but when it was finished, it was a pretty good fit. I used a TC tube and crown and did not take the time to sand the case sides down flat like genuine but left them rounded off. All in all it turned out pretty good for about $200 plus a 1520 and aftmkt dial. 

One thing I can never get used to is making all the special cutter bits and keeping them sharp so they will make proper cuts...it takes a lot of time.

[Olivax]

Yes, just like anything else. If you have a problem with it, don't buy.

 

So make your own, price them cheaper, and reap the rewards.

 

What's that, you say? You're not willing to invest the time and money to learn how to do this, or run the legal risks of producing counterfeit goods? Well I guess you're just going to have to pay what they're asking, then.

 

 

We are all willing to learn how to do it. If not, we wouldn't spend so much time on this forum. After all, we are all investing money in this hobby some more than others. 

I just think that the strength of this community is to improve quality and price on our replicas. That's what is happening with all the trusted dealers and factory that are serving us better and better quality at a fraction of the real deal (Pam, Ap divers, JLC NS, TC Sub etc...)

I just think that it's a non sense when the price of a rep part is getting close to the real deal. 

I understand that rolex replacement parts have increased those last years due to rarity. So, why those aftermarket guys are increasing their prices as well when they can produce the quantity they want?? They just take advantage of the market going up. So we must be fools...

[danielv2000]

I wish I had the know how and the cash to set up a similar shop. We pay for the quality. I buy from Phong and Minh because of quality. Often, I will try to grab an all-built Franken here on the for sale section. We all started with the cheap $150 sub or cheap Daytona. on day 1, those cheap bastards were as good as gen. However, as time went on, we could not live with the flaws so we moved up to better quality, less tells. That has a cost. The cost is Phong and Minh. A group buy with this amount of cash involved is a disaster waiting to happen, IMHO.

[Olivax]

I wish I had the know how and the cash to set up a similar shop. We pay for the quality. I buy from Phong and Minh because of quality. Often, I will try to grab an all-built Franken here on the for sale section. We all started with the cheap $150 sub or cheap Daytona. on day 1, those cheap bastards were as good as gen. However, as time went on, we could not live with the flaws so we moved up to better quality, less tells. That has a cost. The cost is Phong and Minh. A group buy with this amount of cash involved is a disaster waiting to happen, IMHO.

 

I agree. It could turn out to be very dangerous with this amount of money involved. 

Why not ask for a special RWG deal or discount like DW did with the 7032 case. A real bargain imho!

[sneed12]

We are all willing to learn how to do it.

 

Yes. But if it were easy, we'd all be doing it. We're not. What does that tell you?

 

 

  I just think that it's a non sense when the price of a rep part is getting close to the real deal. 

 

 

So do I. I don't buy those parts.

 

If no one does, one of three things will happen:

 

1) The rep parts will sell anyway, since there aren't enough gen parts on the market to satisfy demand.

2) The rep parts won't sell at that price, and the dealer will be forced to lower the price.

2) The rep parts won't sell, and the dealer can't lower the price and still make a profit, and so the dealer will stop making those parts.

 

That's how markets work.

 

 

 So, why those aftermarket guys are increasing their prices as well when they can produce the quantity they want?? They just take advantage of the market going up. So we must be fools...

 

They'd be bigger fools if they didn't take advantage of the market going up.

[Valty]

 A group buy with this amount of cash involved is a disaster waiting to happen, IMHO.

 

I have to say I took part of a decent group buy here with few mates, and it turned really good. The price was excellent, and it was really fun to share our knowledge to have the best cases possible.

 

It 100% depends of the guy who is doing the group buy. In my case, he was a top notch guy A little hello if you see me A.

 

They'd be bigger fools if they didn't take advantage of the market going up.

 

+10000, no one wants to work for nothing, right ? I'm sure 95% of the members here would have the same price policy. Unlike us, I'm pretty sure there is not part of fun in their business.

 

In my case, it is very simple, I look on my left side what I'm earning with my job. Now I look on my right side the time I have to spend to learn where to buy good cases, learn about reworking a case, etc. Not talking about the huge price of the machines needed to make something good. Not talking too about X trips to China, Vietnam, ...

 

Well, I strongly prefer to have a premium service with somebody like Phong or Minh, it's much more profitable in my case.

 

I'm obviously not talking about the part of fun... Because all in all, I would have made big savings in terms of time (so money) to directly buy the gen watches. Apart from the fun (witch is important I agree) time = money

 

@Olivax, no offense, I'm not sure you measure the kind of investment to make a business like Phong is doing right now. We surely have fellow members who have more money than others here, but IMHO, it's really a full time job to do this. It needs too many investments to be just a "hobby"

[janeto72]

I am going to chime in here and give my 2 cents worth.....I chose a phong case for my daytona build. I was lucky enough to get a great case at a great price in a recent group buy....thanks A!!!. Your the man for setting this one up.!!!.My case only required extremely light "massaging", to make it very, very genlike....I wanted to build a franken. When I was finally done the only two things left on my build that were not gen were the phong midcase and the 726 Roamer movement. I have to say it would be very difficult to "call it out" among gen owners.Mine is a build that got out of control. I still think there are a few upgrades that i need to do to make it even more period correct...

I originally started with a budget of $1500.00 for a V72 DW build; but I decided I wouldn't be satisfied with DW's offerings and went with Phong's.Well,since then my build has gotten out of control....I estimate my cost at around 12-13000.00 USD; but I now have a very convincing Franken at 1/3 the cost of a gen....i'm still not finished; but i'm very, very happy with the result thus far!!!

[danielv2000]

It all depends how you define a group buy. If a group buy means 4-5 buys and the dealer lowers the price/per and ships to each individual, that's low risk. If you're talking about one guy making a bulk buy and collecting money up front or fronting the money, that's risky. Wm9 was a stand up guy (so I heard) until he vanished with deposits for the elusive WM9 SD.

[Olivax]

I heard that George from WM9 died in car accident... If the money goes straight to phong with no intermediary, that would be the solution

[Olivax]

I am going to chime in here and give my 2 cents worth.....I chose a phong case for my daytona build. I was lucky enough to get a great case at a great price in a recent group buy....thanks A!!!. Your the man for setting this one up.!!!.My case only required extremely light "massaging", to make it very, very genlike....I wanted to build a franken. When I was finally done the only two things left on my build that were not gen were the phong midcase and the 726 Roamer movement. I have to say it would be very difficult to "call it out" among gen owners.Mine is a build that got out of control. I still think there are a few upgrades that i need to do to make it even more period correct...

I originally started with a budget of $1500.00 for a V72 DW build; but I decided I wouldn't be satisfied with DW's offerings and went with Phong's.Well,since then my build has gotten out of control....I estimate my cost at around 12-13000.00 USD; but I now have a very convincing Franken at 1/3 the cost of a gen....i'm still not finished; but i'm very, very happy with the result thus far!!!

Waouhhh Janeto 12-13.000 usd for a franken is a lot of cash! I think you can get a gen one for around 22.000 usd.

My brother built a franken 6263 one and half year ago for around 6-7k euros with gen dial, gen hands, v726 with rolex bridges, phong case, ofrei pushers, gen crown and tube, gen plexi, gen bracelet and endlinks, spin bezel.

[janeto72]

@ Olivax.....  tell me where i can get one for 22K and i'll buy it......i've good examples selling for 28-32 K.....very good for 32-36K......near mint 36-45K.... and a NOS piece for 55K...well I guess I must be crazy......

[danielv2000]

@ Olivax..... tell me where i can get one for 22K and i'll buy it......i've good examples selling for 28-32 K.....very good for 32-36K......near mint 36-45K.... and a NOS piece for 55K...well I guess I must be crazy......

I agree. Some of these lower priced "gens" might be Frankens for all we know. Here, at least you know what you are buying!

I actually noticed someone over at VRF enquiring about a Daytona (I think) and some newbie (likely a member here) replied that it was a Phong!

Edited February 16, 2013 by danielv2000

[Olivax]

@ Olivax..... tell me where i can get one for 22K and i'll buy it......i've good examples selling for 28-32 K.....very good for 32-36K......near mint 36-45K.... and a NOS piece for 55K...well I guess I must be crazy......

You're right! Just checked on chrono24 and the lowest price is 26k. Those little things are getting pricey!