JMB '1016' case vs a genspec dial...

[automatico]

For a few years I had a '1016' made up using a genuine 16220 case with a 1570 and it was Ok but I always worried about killing the genuine movement so I cut the dial feet off and stuck the dial on a swiss Eta 2846 and put it in the case. All was fine and dandy until JMB came up with a much better looking case. So...I bought a couple cases and went to work. The problem is the oem spec '1016' dial is 27.9mm and the JMB case has a 29.2mm dial seat making the dial a loose fit in the case. I do not like having dial alignment depend on unreliable 'dial dots' to hold the dial centered on the little sheet metal calendar spacer without the benefit of dial feet. Not good imho because it only takes .5mm (or less) 'dial slide' to jam up the hour wheel and/or hour hand hub when they rub against the edge of the dial center hole.

What to do? I read where someone said to cement the top dial ('1016') to a Raffles Time etc dial with Eta dial feet and put it all together. Good idea. Today I sanded the lumi dots and paint off of a 29.0mm Raffles 'mil sub' sterile dial and cemented it to the '1016' dial using slow set heavy duty epoxy. So far it looks like a very good fix and I will put it all together in a few days after I c/o the 28xx, using case clamps and screws with the brass JMB spacer. No plastic.

The spacer supplied with the JMB case has an od of 29.15mm so it is a very good fit inside the 29.2mm dial seat.   The oem spec '1016' dial is 27.9mm.  The '1016' dial is from 'Stilty' about 10 years ago, is of unknown origin and has slightly smaller numbers like the older models did.   The dial seat inside the JMB case is 29.2mm.   The Raffles dial od is 29.0mm.

All in all this may be a good way to go.

 

But...there is one big catch and I bet all you sharpies already caught it...

The 16220 project mentioned above used an Eta 2846 and the JMB '1016' case is made for an Eta 2824 (that's one reason why it makes such a good '1016').  So now I have to change all the 21600 bph parts from the 2846 into an Eta 2824 along with the taller CP etc.

Nothin' to it.  

 

[jmb]

I never thought about gluing a dial to a dial but the way I do it is to set the ETA dial spacer on the movement, put a thin bead of JB-Weld around the top of the spacer, and set the dial (sans feet so I guess you could call it a paraplegic dial?) on top, centering it on the hour wheel, and setting a case-back die on it as a weight.  This makes sure the dial is always perfectly centered  on the movement and when I have it lined up perfectly with the stem a little dab of epoxy can be applied to make sure it stays "clocked" if you are so inclined.

Dial-dots are just too "squishy" and let stuff shift around over time so I rarely use them anymore.  I have tried the Bergeon glue-on dial feet but have not had very good success getting them to stay glued.  Ofter just the slight force applied to the foot when closing the little clamp thingie on the movement is enough to break the epoxy loose.

[marrickvilleboy]

Would have thought gluing a dial to another dial increases the height needed for the hour wheel, minute wheel, etc to pass. Are you guys not experiencing this issue?

[dutchguy2]

11 hours ago, marrickvilleboy said:

Would have thought gluing a dial to another dial increases the height needed for the hour wheel, minute wheel, etc to pass. Are you guys not experiencing this issue?

My thoughts exactly. Not even H4 would be tall enough to get the hour hand at a decent distance from the dial.

 

 

[DVNE]

21 minutes ago, dutchguy2 said:

My thoughts exactly. Not even H4 would be tall enough to get the hour hand at a decent distance from the dial.

 

 

It replaces the dial spacer. On a no date dial and with a little bit of sanding clearance should suffice. On a date dial, you'd have to make a hole in the center of the dial to clear the datewheel overlay leaving basically a ring with dial feet.

[automatico]

The Raffles dial just about makes up for the calendar spacer and I sanded quite a bit off the Raff dial but it still makes the stem a hair out of center in the case tube on a 2824. When the stem is just a little bit out of center in the case tube the slack in the crown clutch will still allow everything to screw down Ok. What JMB said about gluing the dial to the spacer sounds better than what I did so I may save the JMB cases and stick this double dial project in a 2836 case if I can find one with lug holes or maybe put it all back in my 16200 case. The Eta 2836 is a good fit in the 16220 case.

I will update with any progress but it may be a while because spring has sprung and I am covered up with house/yard projects.

[blue.]

I can warmly recommend the following dial feet, as they have a thin wide base. When epoxied they sit very strong on the dial. Already did a couple of disassembly's of the movement, dial ... etc.

Bear in mind they are a bit long and need to be cut. I did so prior to glueing, but it was necessary to shorten even more. Then I started to file down the already glued dial feet. This must be of sufficient proof that they hold enough.

 

The first time I saw the Bergeon dial feet I immediately saw that the tiny base they have would be of a problem, due to mechanical forces involved.

Here are the dial feet I have a positive experience with. Was a bit tricky to order as back then (2012 they had no online shop running).

https://www.agtshop.co.uk/product/462-gents-dial-feet.html

Edited May 27, 2016 by blue.

[themannier]

Thanks for sharing, very interesting, i will keep the link ! 

[meadowsweet_]

Rick, do you recall which "version" of Justin's case you're using? I've got one of his "V2" cases and the gen 1016 service dial I have seats inside the case snugly. Granted, I slotted the ETA 2789 movement to accept the RLX dial feet, but there wasn't any side-to-side "play" or slide with the dial when I initially test fitted it in the case.

[jmb]

The cases I used to get, up until about a year or so ago had a smaller dial "seat" than the later ones.  That was preferable when dealing with a gen-spec dial but a lot of rep dials push 29mm so I guess the case-makers didn't see the need for two cases.

[jakethemouse]

On 28/5/2016 at 8:20 AM, blue. said:

I can warmly recommend the following dial feet, as they have a thin wide base. When epoxied they sit very strong on the dial. Already did a couple of disassembly's of the movement, dial ... etc.

Bear in mind they are a bit long and need to be cut. I did so prior to glueing, but it was necessary to shorten even more. Then I started to file down the already glued dial feet. This must be of sufficient proof that they hold enough.

 

The first time I saw the Bergeon dial feet I immediately saw that the tiny base they have would be of a problem, due to mechanical forces involved.

Here are the dial feet I have a positive experience with. Was a bit tricky to order as back then (2012 they had no online shop running).

https://www.agtshop.co.uk/product/462-gents-dial-feet.html

Interesting indeed.

 

How did you align the dial feet before epoxy? did you use a template of some sort?

[automatico]

"Rick, do you recall which "version" of Justin's case you're using? I've got one of his "V2" cases and the gen 1016 service dial I have seats inside the case snugly."

Do not know what 'V' they are but the cases were purchased in late February 2016 and they were the type that had thinned down lugs and two sets of spring bar holes on the insides of the lugs with 1.3mm+/- JMB holes drilled all the way through, no numbers/letters between the lugs. 

I did some measuring while ago and the genuine 16220 case that I used for the earlier '1016' project has a dial seat diameter of 28.0mm and a dial window opening of 27.5mm, so there is not much metal supporting the dial but the dial seat is a close fit around the dial. The JMB case has a dial seat diameter of 29.2mm and a dial window opening diameter of 27.3mm. The bigger dial seat area will not center the dial like the genuine case so the movement spacer has to be a very close fit on the movement and inside the case in order to keep the dial centered so a space will not show on one side.

Have a 'like new' L240xxx 16220 case from the late 1980s and I cut the dial seat deeper in the case so it would accept a cal 3035 but never wore it much because it did not work out like I wanted. This would be an ideal case to thin down and make a 'high grade' 1016 project with a 1520 and genuine dial. It would need a movement with taller 1575 date center wheel, cp, and hour wheel plus the calendar spacer like what is needed in an MBK 1520/70 '5512/13' projet because of the deeper dial seat. I doubt I will ever get around to it though because it has been in the project box for 20 years. I do have all the parts though.

As for a thinned down slower beat Eta...I have an Eta 2879 (d/d at 3) and it does not use a sheet metal calendar spacer but has a shoulder made on the top plate for a spacer. After I take it apart I'll see if maybe the shoulder can be cut away in a lathe to thin it down close to a 2824. May have to remove the sheet metal hour wheel keeper if it has one but the dial (with a dial washer if needed) will hold the hour wheel down.

[blue.]

On 31/05/2016 at 11:37 AM, jakethemouse said:

Interesting indeed.

 

How did you align the dial feet before epoxy? did you use a template of some sort?

The alignment was done on an old ETA plate, but you could do it also directly on the movement itself.

Of course you should not forget to cover up the rest of the movement with thin nylon or similar to protect the movement from possible spilled out epoxy. As epoxy has a low viscosity (thick and sticky) it should not wander by itself once you had applied sufficient amount on the dial feet.

The feet need to be locked in the movement a bit higher than usual, to allow the dial to sit clear of any other parts while being centred and the epoxy drying.

[jakethemouse]

On 6/6/2016 at 8:47 PM, blue. said:

The alignment was done on an old ETA plate, but you could do it also directly on the movement itself.

Of course you should not forget to cover up the rest of the movement with thin nylon or similar to protect the movement from possible spilled out epoxy. As epoxy has a low viscosity (thick and sticky) it should not wander by itself once you had applied sufficient amount on the dial feet.

The feet need to be locked in the movement a bit higher than usual, to allow the dial to sit clear of any other parts while being centred and the epoxy drying.

Thanks Blue. 

 

Great help.