5500 AK/Explorer project tips...

[automatico]

Anyone looking for a vintage style crystal for an AK 5500, 1002 etc project might take a look at a GS PA459-37 (Tropic 11) crystal.  This GS crystal has a rounded top edge, not the sharp top edge like a modern crystal and they make a watch look 'more vintage' than the sharp edge #12 crystals widely available.

Something concerning 5500 AK/Explorer projects when using one of the 34mm Tudor cases from JMB...these cases are made for an ETA 2824 and in my experience a 2836/2846 does not work because the stem does not line up in the center of the case tube and the winding rotor rubs the case back.  What is the fix? 

1...Remove the winding works from the 2836/2846 and manually wind the watch, not the best solution if you like automatics.  You also need to grease or put heavy oil (D5 or something) on the little eccentric post made on the main plate where the crown wheel is mounted to keep it from wearing.

2...Swap the 21600 escapement parts from a 2846 to a 2824.  This is a twofer...you get a thinner movement that will fit into the case and it provides a 21600 beat rate so the ss hand has less ticks per second, more like a 1520 etc. 

3...In my experience the GS PA459-37 will work with the JMB Tudor case and bezel (they come with MG crystals).

Here is one on eBay to look at:   eBay item number  201701891441

 

[Vibes]

Thanks man! I picked it up. I have a yuki, you may remember, that I have been trying to get a non cyclop crystal to fit. I have since got a gen Tudor that I turned into a ranger, but it would be fun to build a non-date one too. I also found a post by you from a while back about turning a 1500 case into a 5500 by sanding the cyclop off.... I may also try that. 

[lumbee]

You really don't need to sand the cyclops off of a 1500 to make a 5500. All you need to do to fit a 5500 crystal is use a 5500 bezel. The mid-cases are the same. so the 5500 bezel snaps right on. The difference, other than the cyclops, is the 1500 crystal has slightly thicker walls due to the higher WRA rating of the 1500.

I just finished 2 5500 Explorers. Both are genuine 5500 AKs with Yuki dials and eBay hands (Yuki hands WON'T fit a 1520 movement!). One is a gild dial with gilt hands and the other is a matte black dial with silver hands. 

I am also working on finishing a gen 1958 Air-King with 1530 movement.

 

[Vibes]

Not sure that is correct. I tried to fit the Tropic 11 GS crystal and several others W/O cyclop on the 1500 to no avail. The tropic 11 is too small. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Vibes

[Bart Cordell]

@Vibes
I used a 25-12 on my 1002 case for a 5500 Explorer build.

[automatico]

There is a list on this page that shows what the #11 and #12 are supposed to fit: 

http://www.ofrei.com/page419.html

I used a GS GS PA459-37 on a genuine 1002 case along with a new bezel from one of JMB's 34mm tudor cases and it all fit Ok...the JMB bezel was the same ID as the genuine 1002 bezel.  Also used a GS GS PA459-37 on a 14k rolex 1010 last week and it worked Ok too.

 

[Vibes]

That would be great if I have a 1002 case, but I do not; I have a 1500.  Lumbee says the 1002 (5500) and the 1500 midcase is the same, but I don't think so. The 1500 takes a taller movement because of the date complication and crystals designed for a 5500 are too small. 

[automatico]

The 5500/1002 etc no date cases are different from 1500 etc date cases because of the thicker movement in the date models.  You can use a no date movement in a date case with a no date dial if you use the calendar spacer, center wheel/cp, and hour wheel from a date movement, same deal as with an MBK 5512/13 case.  You can not use a date movement in a no date case without removing all the calendar parts and spacer...then the hands may mount too high and if so, a no date center wheel/cp, and hour wheel must be used.  You can buy aftmkt 1570/75 date center wheel/cp but aftmkt no date parts are not available that I know of and date and no date hour wheels are not easy to find at a reasonable price.

I measured Sternkreuz 12 and 17 crystals (12 for no dates, 117 for slow set oyster dates) and the 12 measured 29.25 OD x 28.25 ID while the 117 was 29.5mm OD x 28.5 ID...the crystal sidewall measured 1.0mm thick on both.  Loose crystal measurements are not very accurate, especially with non oem crystals but this shows there is a difference in case and bezel sizes.  Measuring case necks and bezels would give a better result but this is Ok for showing there is a difference...at least in the Sternkreuz brand.

If I can find the cases, I will measure 5500 and 1500 cases/bezels along with a 15000 quick set case/bezel (takes a 145 crystal) and post the specs in a day or two.  I moved stuff around a while back and can not find anything. 

edit 12-4:  Measured a few cases...genuine rolex 1500/1501 etc case neck 28.5mm, did not have a bezel handy.  JMB 34mm tudor case marked with reference number 74033, case neck 28.15mm od and bezel was a loose 29.1mm id, close to 29.15, iirc this is close to or the same as genuine rolex 5500, 1002 etc but the bezel felt a little bit tight with a Sternkreuz 12 on the JMB case so I did not try to press the bezel down.  Next time I have a 5500/1002 apart I will measure and post along with 1500 bezel id and 15000 case neck and bezel sizes, my 5500 and 15000 cases have bezels/crystals mounted so did not r/r any of them. 

[mead861]

I can confirm that a 2836 will not fit with out the date overlay rubbing the dial causing the date not to properly advance. The eta 2824 will work on a non-stick dial. When I did my 15000 Date I had to use a 2824 because its thinner and then swapped out the  pinion with this http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAND-HEIGHT-KIT-FOR-ETA-2824-2-H3-H4-H6-FOR-DO-IT-YOURSELF-CHANGE-/131732148773?var=&hash=item1eabd91225:m:mOt96At7UrNrstZYN9j2Dtg . If the pinion is not swapped the hands will hit the dial. I have heard if you use a lighter you can heat the crystal and remove the cyclops. 

[Vibes]

Can't do the lighter trick on a plastic crystal!

[mead861]

Good point. I forgot that the older ones where plastic. 

[Dani Cica]

On 11/21/2016 at 2:22 PM, automatico said:

Anyone looking for a vintage style crystal for an AK 5500, 1002 etc project might take a look at a GS PA459-37 (Tropic 11) crystal.  This GS crystal has a rounded top edge, not the sharp top edge like a modern crystal and they make a watch look 'more vintage' than the sharp edge #12 crystals widely available.

 

Quite wrong, the Tropic 11 has sharp edge and Tropic 12 has rounded edge. Both vintage.

[lukejh]

Hi what movement can fit in a 5500/1200 case? Eta 2824? ETA 2836?

[Bart Cordell]

21 minutes ago, lukejh said:

Hi what movement can fit in a 5500/1200 case? Eta 2824? ETA 2836?

2824

[lukejh]

Thanks Bart, will I need a 2824 movement adaptor to fit in or will it fit perfectly into 5500/1002 case?
 

[Bart Cordell]

You will need a movement ring.

This one should fit http://rafflestime.com/movement-ring-for-eta-2824-or-others-that-fit-size-2/

[lukejh]

Ok that's great help Bart!

One more thing, has anyone tried re-positioning dial feet by using epoxy to glue new copper dial feet at the correct positions? I was thinking using dial dots/tape would lead to the tape melting into the movement in the long term causing complications to the movement. Is this true, anyone experienced this before?

[automatico]

"One more thing, has anyone tried re-positioning dial feet by using epoxy to glue new copper dial feet at the correct positions? I was thinking using dial dots/tape would lead to the tape melting into the movement in the long term causing complications to the movement. Is this true, anyone experienced this before?"

 

I have used the Bergeon platform type dial feet (aka roofing nails) with good luck but the platform may raise the dial up away from the movement plate on some projects.

Dial dots are Ok for some jobs but they can allow the dial to slide around on the plate.  They hold 'up and down' Ok but not 'side to side'.  Imho they are better suited to quartz watch projects with small, lightweight movements and tight movement spacers.

Here are some generic platform dial feet:  eBay item number  321530693765

 

I rely on case clamps and screws to hold the dial and movement against the front of the case when there are no dial feet.  In order for this to work the movement and/or movement spacer needs to be a good fit and not allow for much side to side movement at all.  Side to side dial and/or movement shift can allow the edge of the dial center hole to rub the hour wheel tube or hand hub and stall the movement along with allowing the date window to move out of place.  Once the movement is 'bolted down' everything usually stays in place.

 

Sometimes you need to make thicker, stiffer case clamps and I use automotive feeler gauge stock to make them.  Drill the case clamp screw hole first.  Next, you can usually rough cut the clamps with tin snips to save time, then finish the clamp using a file, cutting disc on a Dremel tool or something similar. 

I have posted all this a few times before but it's been a while.

 

[lukejh]

Hi all, 

Would like to ask if anyone has any idea how I should remove the bezel on this 1002 case?
I have tried use a penknife and watch tool to pry the bezel open but the space to fit the tool in is very small and I am unable to pry it open.
I want to replace the acrylic crystal under the bezel and almost give the bezel a light polish.
Please see photos of my case
 

[Nanuq]

Use a single-edge razor blade like people put in box cutters.  Tap it in there, remove, go around the case 1/3 of the way, do it again.  Keep working your way around until it lifts a little.

[lukejh]

Thanks Nanuq, I actually tried to but the razor blade can't get the bezel to open even a slight bit, I even put tape to prevent scratching. I'm afraid to cause deep scratches on the case. 

[automatico]

Nanuq is right on the method.  This is how they show it to be done in their older 'official' manuals. 

Now they probably send them all to Geneva on a rolex green and gold private jet where a technician in a white silk lab coat (with a 24k rolex coronet on the pocket) talks to the case for an hour in a soothing voice with soft music in the background (at 22 degrees C and 51% humidity), begging the case to 'give it up' while offering counseling if it the first time.

 

If the bezel is too tight, it is probably stuck with dirt...either that or the crystal was a hair oversize and the bezel is a very tight fit.  Sometimes you have to force the a single edge razor blade between the bezel and case by pecking it with a small jeweler's hammer to get it started.  As soon as you get the blade under the bezel, move it a little bit from this spot and do it again...take small bites.  Be careful not to drive the blade hard enough to go against the case neck and scratch or dent the case neck because the blade will cut through the crystal easily.  Some cases have a ledge around the bottom of the case neck and it will prevent damage to the case neck where the crystal mounts, but most do not.

 

When prying on the bezel after the bade is under it...raise the blade up from the case as this applies more leverage against the outer edge of the bezel and helps prevent damage to the case neck wall.

It's also a very good idea to use a shorter piece of blade than the whole blade.  Why?  So the blade does not reach far enough to damage the top of the case while prying on the bezel...or cut a chunk out of a finger.

 

How to shorten a blade...on the blades we have in the USA there is a folded guard on the top side of the blade.  Remove this guard and break the blade using two pliers.  Just a little bending and the blade will snap in two.  Cut the guard to fit or leave it full size and put it back on the blade.  Wear safety glasses or break the blade under a rag.  The piece of blade I use is 10 or 12mm wide.

You can also polish the sharp edges of the blade on 1500 or 2000 sandpaper to help prevent scratches on the case top.

 

Do I know what I am talking about?

Of course not but I sure broke a lot of stuff getting this far. 

[Drummania]

How think is the 1002 case from case back to crystal top? I have the same project in mind but I have a 15000 case instead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vibes]

I bought a four blade bezel removal tool and it works like a charm! 

[automatico]

"How thick is the 1002 case from case back to crystal top? I have the same project in mind but I have a 15000 case instead."

 

The 1002 OP and 5500 AK cases are thinner and made for no date movements where the 1500 and 15000 OPD cases are a hair thicker and made for date movements.  A cal 3035 date mvt/OPD dial will fit into a 1500 case and a cal 1575 date mvt/OPD dial will fit into a 15000 case, they are basically the same internally.  Neither one will fit into a 15200 case properly.  Same goes for DJ cases of the same eras...DJ dials are just bigger.

A rolex 15xx movement made for a no date 1002/5500 no date case will not fit properly into a 1500/15000 date case, the movement will mount too far toward the front and the stem will not line up in the case tube.  Whew!

A 5512/13 case is the same internally as a 1002/5500 and a 1680 case is the same internally as a 1500/15000. 

 

If the 15000 OPD project is using a genuine 15xx rolex movement, you will need to use a no date movement with date calendar spacer/center wheel/canon pinion/hour wheel and all the other date parts removed. 

If the 15000 OPD project is using an ETA movement, a 2836/46 may work but 2824 probably will not for the same reason as above...mounts too far to the front.  Whew again!

 

When putting an ETA 28xx movement into a rolex 1002/5500/5512/5513/1680 etc case you will need a special spacer because the ETA movements are 11.5 ligne size (26.0mm) and rolex is 12.5 ligne size (28.2mm)...1 ligne = 2.256mm.  Btw, it's sorta hit or miss on actual ligne sizes stated for movements...they sometimes round it off. 

 

Now that you are thoroughly confused, maybe someone who has put ETA movements in a 1002/5500 will chime in.