JMB '1016' project update...

[automatico]

I started this project about a year ago but never finished it so I took another run at it recently.

Here is what was done and where it stands :

 

Standard last edition JMB '1016' case.  Probably the best affordable '1016' project case available.

Swiss ETA 2824/2846 'combo' movement.  Combo = 2824 main plates with 2846 wheel train and balance assembly.

Why the combo movement?  Because the case was made for a 2824 date movement and I wanted a lower beat rate (2824 = 28800 bph  2846 = 21600 bph...1016 was 18000 for early models and 19800 for later models).  My 2846 are all day and date models and thicker (5.2mm) than a 2824 (4.7mm).

The dial is an oem spec example that 'Stilty' got for me 6 or 8 years ago.  Pretty good dial.  Removed the dial feet for this project.

Movement was c/o and assembled, ran fine. 

The movement spacer was a good fit in the case with just a little slack.  The spacer is a good fit on the movement.  The spacer is 26.05 ID x 29.1 OD x 2.35mm thick.  The case/movement clamps were a good tight fit but pulling/pushing the crown can sometimes overcome their friction and move things around a little.

Note:  The dial mounts to the case spacer, not the movement on this particular project.  There is no ETA calendar spacer used and a dial washer was used to keep the hour wheel in mesh.  The movement would mount too far toward the back of the case if a calendar spacer was used.  I tried it.

'Dial dots' were used to stick the dial to the movement spacer...dial dots were a bad move it turned out.

Drilled the case tube hole out to approximately 2.5mm and tapped it for a standard older type 6.0 ST (external spline) case tube (3.0mm x .35mm case threads).

Why?

So I could use a genuine old style 6.0mm crown.

Movement runs fine and it all looked very good when assembled.

 

The trouble...

The oem spec dial just barely has any room for centering error in the case because the dial window is 27.3mm and the dial OD is 27.9mm leaving only .3mm purchase on the outside edge of the dial to the inside of the case with the movement and dial centered.

What was the problem?  Maybe .3mm sounds like enough (and in theory it is) but with the dial mounted to the movement spacer with dial dots, the movement and spacer can move just enough when pulling/pushing the crown in and out to allow the dial center hole to rub the hour wheel/hour hand tube and stall the movement.

Why?

Because the dial dots ('slide dots'  Ha!) will allow the dial to slide on the case spacer

What's the fix?

Maybe make a precision movement spacer and cement the dial to the spacer with epoxy or Gorilla glue to hold it in place.  Filing the dial center hole out a little bit might work too but it may also chip the dial paint.  Do not want to take the chance.

 

What's next?

Nothing planned for now.  May abandon the project and move on to something else, have not decided.

If not a JMB case then what?

Maybe a genuine 160xx case but they are getting expensive and many of them suffer from corrosion.  Iirc a 2846 will work in them.  A 160x 'slow set' case may also work but I have not tried one.

[bobandshawn]

Super glue gel (gives 10-20 seconds of work time.) Three equi-spaced drops on the outside edge of the movement, then lower the spacer to set. Then same process to attach dial to spacer...

 

B

 

[capice]

great write up...

[automatico]

"Super glue gel..."

 

Thanks, I may go with gel.  The cement needs to be just a little bit flexible so regular SG usually cracks and lets go.

 

"great write up..."

 

Thanks.  If and when I finish it, I'll post an update.

[capice]

Personally I would not file the dail as it is so easy to damage

[automatico]

"Personally I would not file the dial as it is so easy to damage "

 

You are right because if it chips, the chip can be fairly large.  I have seen this happen. 

I have enlarged dial center holes using sandpaper wrapped and cemented around a toothpick mounted in a battery powered Dremel tool.  The center hole is sometimes too small for this.  Besides that, it is slow going and dust gets all over the dial.

 

The best solution is a close fitting movement spacer with the 'no foot' dial securely mounted to the spacer so nothing can move.  I did not mention that when the dial slid off to one side on my '1016', there would be an small open space where the dial uncovered the dial window opposite the direction it moved. 

 

The aftmkt dial is 27.9mm.  Just now measured a genuine 1016 dial and it is the same...27.9mm.  The dial window opening in a JMB case is 27.3mm as stated above.  Measured genuine 16200, 16233, and 16234 cases and the dial window openings are 27.5mm.  A 16014 was also 27.5mm.  Do not know what a genuine 1016 case dial window is. 

 

So...a genuine spec 27.9mm 1016 dial in a JMB '1016' case will have .6mm to play with (only .3mm all the way around the dial), and a genuine spec 162xx case will have .4mm to play with (.2mm all the way around) because of the larger 27.5mm dial window opening.

Since the dial is smaller than ideal using any of these cases in a 'not perfectly precise' project, a precision movement spacer is a necessity (JMB stated this in a previous post iirc).  No way around it.

 

[jmb]

R,

 

You must have one of the early cases, they had a smaller dial seat.  The later cases will take up to a 29mm dial, lots of play but personally I like the old ones better.  When I build these I use the "low" ETA dial seat/spacer, place it on the movement, drop on the dial washer, then glue the dial to the spacer making sure I keep it centered.

 

Also, don't you mean the case is 28.3mm"  Seems it would be kinda hard to stuff a 27.9mm dial in a 27.3mm hole!

 

Justin B.

[capice]

If you were to place a precision mvtspacer and you want to stick the dail onto that, what would be the best..stickers of glue? Keeping in mind that you wnat it sitting secure but removable when needed.

[automatico]

"Also, don't you mean the case is 28.3mm"  Seems it would be kinda hard to stuff a 27.9mm dial in a 27.3mm hole!"

 

Dial win-der!  Like the win-der you look out of (aka dial opening).  The dial sits beee-hind it.

 

"You must have one of the early cases, they had a smaller dial seat."

 

This case will work better than a genuine (27.5mm dial opening) DJ case or case with a larger dial opening because the smaller (27.3mm) dial opening in this case gives more mounting area for the dial.

 

 

"If you were to place a precision mvt spacer and you want to stick the dial onto that, what would be the best..stickers of glue? Keeping in mind that you want it sitting secure but removable when needed."

 

Stickers (dial dots etc) and easier to deal with but do not hold the dial firmly.  Cement of some sort (epoxy, Gorilla glue etc) is better but can have so much holding power that removing the dial from the spacer may be difficult.  I will have to use glue on this particular project next time around because dial dots did not work.  Since the dial is a hair smaller than the OD of the spacer, the dial can still move around on the spacer when dial dots are used. 

On a project where the dial OD is very close to the ID of the dial seating area in the case and the dial can not move from side to side, dial dots should be Ok.

 

I did not address the problems incurred when you r/r the movement and dial as a unit and the dial (cemented to the spacer) moves around or raises up...sometimes allowing the hands to rub on the dial and/or allowing the hour hand to come out of mesh and get out of correspondence.

 

The truth is...these projects can be a real hassle sometimes.  I have done a lot of them and they do not seem to be getting much easier. 

I also work on quartz character watch projects and they are a pleasure compared to these cussed things.

 

Watch fixer Q&A:

Q...What is the difference between a pro and an amateur watch fixer?

A...The pro can fix his screw-ups. 

 

 

[automatico]

I had another go at this never ending project by gluing the dial to the movement spacer with clear Gorilla glue.  Super glue and epoxy can crack and release the bond but Gorilla glue is a bit more flexible and parts usually stay put.  The clear Gorilla glue does not swell up like the old yellow glue they started out with so it will not jack the dial away from the spacer as it dries.  I roughed the surface of the spacer up a little and cleaned the spacer and dial with acetone on a Q-tip.  The directions on the Gorilla glue say to dampen one surface (if non porous metal etc), glue the parts together, and clamp them if needed. 

 

I stuck it together after dampening the back side of the dial slightly with water on another Q-tip, then ran a thin bead of glue around the spacer and clamped it all together in a 'BB' crystal press between two flat crystal dies.  A small square of wax paper was placed between the front side of the dial and upper flat die and a little bit of tension was supplied by a couple rubber bands between the press handle and base.  Can not apply much pressure because it could crack the printed lume spots and dots.

'Flat die' = the type of round flat die used to press mineral glass/sapphire crystals in cases...not the hollow type for domed crystals.

 

I will also try to put a couple narrow 'dial strips' between OD of the movement and ID of the spacer to keep it in place when handling the assembly so the movement will not move away from 12 high on the dial.

'Dial strips' are small rectangular strips of clear double sticky dial adhesive.  They can be trimmed to fit so I'll make them narrow and try to get them to go between the OD of the movement and ID of the spacer.  There should be enough room to allow for them.

 

Hope it works this time around, I'll post the results in a few days or a week.  

 

[automatico]

Finished this project.  Finally.

 

Here is what I have learned:

The thinner JMB case will not accept a 21600 bph Eta 2846 so I made an Eta combo movement with thinner 2824 plates and 2846 running gear.  It runs fine.

 

Here is how it went:

1...The dial is mounted directly on top of the movement plate without a calendar spacer or any spacer at all.

Q...Why?

A...To make the movement mount as far as possible toward the upper side of the case so the stem will be centered in the case tube (this JMB case is made for a 2824).

Q...How is the dial mounted to the movement?

A...The dial is cemented to the brass movement spacer with Gorilla glue and three thin adhesive dial strips were folded over the outer edge of the movement plate and the spacer pushed down over them...the dial strips hold the spacer/dial in place and keep it positioned correctly during r/r the movement/dial in the case.  The dial is not mechanically attached to the movement (no dial feet).  A thin brass dial washer was used to keep the hour wheel in mesh. 

 

This project could have gone better if I had changed a few things:

1...Make a thin aluminum or brass spacer to go between the top of the movement plate and bottom of the dial.  The spacer would need to be thick enough to provide support to the dial around the outside edge...without moving the dial away from the top plate.

Q...Why?

A...Because the dial is supported mostly in the middle of the top plate where there is an 'island' with very little support around the outer edges allowing the dial to rock slightly when installing casing clamps.  This causes no harm because nothing moves after the movement is mounted but a 'leveling spacer' would be a worthwhile addition.

Q...Could I have used a standard stamped metal Eta calendar spacer?

A...Probably but it would need to be thinned down with sandpaper.  I did not want to take it apart to try it.

 

Q...What would I do differently the next time around when using the same case?

A 1...Go with a different (thinner) Eta or maybe an A Schild 18000 or 21600 bph movement to keep from making a combo movement, I have a few 1960s/1970s A/S movements but never measured them.  Since there are no dial feet and the dial is mounted to the movement spacer it does not matter what brand movement is used.  Hand sizes might be a problem because you need to use 'Mercedes' hands made for Eta, rlx, NN/DG/Seagull etc. 

A 2...Make a dial spacer if needed.

A 3...Do the project all at once, do not delay the project for months then start back on it.

A 4...Use a case made for an Eta 2836/46.  It would be a little bit thicker but a lot easier.

 

Q...How long did this project take, start to finish?

A...Over one year. 

Just kidding...25 or 30 hours counting drilling/tapping the case for regular 6.0mm case tube, putting the combo movement together, hunting parts etc.

 

I have a spare JMB case, dial etc so maybe I will put another one together later on. 

...somewhere around year 2100.  

 

 

[capice]

[tomhorn]

You could also have made it easier by using a dial that had ETA feet ... like Whoopy's if you could have found one ....

Edited May 29, 2018 by tomhorn

[bobandshawn]

You are one detailed modder!!! Thanks for that - and congratulations!

 

B

[automatico]

"You could also have made it easier by using a dial that had ETA feet ... like Whoopy's if you could have found one …."

 

True.

I had this one without dial feet from a previous project using a rlx 162xx case.

 

 

"You are one detailed modder!!!"

 

Thanks!   

And it more or less proves I actually did it.

More than likely...

[tomhorn]

I was fortunate to avoid some of your issues by using a gen 16014 case (with JMB bezel) and Whoopy dial. The 2846 fit and the dial was easily positioned.

 

Not so easy now given the lack of availability of parts ... :)

[Drummania]

Why not use a 2840 from swatch? Inexpensive, low beat, same dimensions as 2824. Not to mention it has no date crown position. You just need a plastic ring to mount it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[automatico]

"I was fortunate to avoid some of your issues by using a gen 16014 case (with JMB bezel) and Whoopy dial. The 2846 fit and the dial was easily positioned."

 

I looked through some notes I kept from a few years ago concerning '1016' projects:

I used a 162xx case for the first one of these projects but it had a 15xx rolex movement...this was in October 2008.  I made the bezel from scratch using a ring cut from a piece of seamless 904 tubing.  Now I use ST smooth bezels made for 162xx DJ sapphire cases for blanks and cut them to fit. 

Put a 2846 Eta in the same case with the same dial in December 2010 but do not remember how the stem lined up in the case tube...centered, high, or low.  This is when I removed the dial feet.

A 3035 is thicker than a 3135 so a 160xx case would have more 'max head room' than a 162xx case...about .4mm iirc.              

Also had a 2846 in a 160xx case for a 1016 project and took it apart shortly, do not remember much about it.  It was the same 2846/dial combo as used in the 162xx with a spacer to make the movement/dial mount a little bit farther back in the case, best I can remember.  Not sure about the details.

Trivia...Max Headroom!  Ha!  I have an official, original 'Max Headroom' watch, got it from the local Coca-Cola distributor (M-H TV show sponsor).  Do not remember exactly when but I was working in a Ducati-Husqvarna shop at the time and the Ducati Paso had not been out very long.  

 

"Not so easy now given the lack of availability of parts ... :)"

 

Parts are the biggest problem of them all imho.

 

 

  

"Why not use a 2840 from swatch? Inexpensive, low beat, same dimensions as 2824. Not to mention it has no date crown position. You just need a plastic ring to mount it."

 

Good idea.  I did not have a Swatch movement but have a few Etas of various reference numbers so the 2824/2846 combo was the Lucky Duck this time around.

 

 

 

From the first post in this thread:

"Removed the dial feet for this project"

 

I was wrong about this as the dial feet had already been removed.  They were removed in 2010:

"I had this one without dial feet from a previous project using a rlx 162xx case."   

These projects tend to run together in my hollow head after a while.

 

Note on the 2824/2846 'combo' movement:

Been wearing it since yesterday afternoon and after 3 or 4 'trial and error' regulations it is about 5 or 7 seconds fast in a day.  For now.

Something else...I did not change out the shock jewels and springs to a matching pair but used the original 'Incabloc' type jewel/shock parts in the 2824 main plate and the 'Etachron' jewel/shock parts on the other side along with the 2846 balance complete, escape wheel, and pallet fork.  I did not want to r/r the balance assembly into the other balance bridge and take the chance of #@&%ing the hairspring. 

The 2846 escapement parts are not finished as carefully as the 2824 parts and the balance wheel/hs are different alloys.  A 2824 usually keeps better time.  'Usually' being the key word.

[automatico]

Rolex 1016 case changes over the years:

 

Case – Rolex Explorer 1016