Properly fitting a gasket for 5513 Cartel Case?

[RickFlorida]

Hello everyone.   The simplest build steps for projects seem to always be the most difficult for me, LOL.   (Like how to get a perfectly clean acrylic crystal when assembling).  Now it's finding/fitting a proper fitting gasket.

 

I'm building a 5513 with a RoloJack shaped newer Cartel 5513 case.  Does anyone know what size gasket fits best in the groove of these casebacks so that it stays in the groove?  I have a nicely working waterproofing/pressure tester that goes to 8 Bar so I'm wanting to seal this case up decently.   The inside diameter for where I think the gasket should go is around 33mm.  I'm guessing the thickness of the gasket should be between .80 and 1mm?  Generally speaking, I think some people would order an inside diameter that is 1 mm smaller than the inside diameter to stretch the gasket into the groove.  However, this is not really a good strategy here because there is a small "step-up" that a tight gasket would hit and then not be in the lower groove.  I found a .80 thick gasket that is supposed to be 32mm and it almost works but not quite. 

 

Would a thicker gasket, like 1mm thick, hold it's shape better to stay in the groove?  I'm thinking the thinner gaskets just go all over the place and don't stay in the groove.  I'm thinking the gasket has to stay in the groove until you start threading the case down.

Thanks for any advice.

[automatico]

"The inside diameter for where I think the gasket should go is around 33mm."

 

Case back gaskets are sized (and ordered) by the inside diameter and thickness (cross section measurement).

 

 

"Generally speaking, I think some people would order an inside diameter that is 1 mm smaller than the inside diameter to stretch the gasket into the groove."

 

Using an undersized gasket can allow it to crawl out of the groove and get between the case and case back when tightening the case back.  With small cross section gaskets you may not notice it.

 

 

"I'm guessing the thickness of the gasket should be between .80 and 1mm?"

 

If the correct gasket thickness is unknown, it will depend on the width and depth of the gasket groove.

You want the gasket to compress enough to properly seal the case while making sure the gasket is not so big in diameter that it does not allow the case back to seat against the case.  This usually involves trial and error.  You might be surprised at how little the O ring has to compress to seal the case. 

 

Lightly lubricate the case back threads with grease...$Fomblin$ etc to prevent galling/seizing.  I use Krytox GPL 205 on screw down threads and gaskets, silicone grease on snap back gaskets. 

Note...many types of grease can dissolve rubber gaskets over time.  $Fomblin$, Krytox, and silicone grease do not.  Silicone grease is not the best for lubricating threads but it is better than nothing.

 

Do not over tighten the case back.  All you need to do is snug it down tight enough to fully compress the gasket and keep the back from coming loose. 

I will never understand why so many rolex etc case backs are cranked down so tight. 

Maybe to keep fools like me out of them... 

[RickFlorida]

What you are saying makes sense, thank you!   It appears I need to try a 33 mm because you are right that the 32 wants to crawl away.    What i might do is order slightly different thicknesses of 33mm.

 

Anyone know the cartel cases very well and know which gasket they like best?  Of course, there could be variations on these so who knows.

[earloflondon]

I bought from cousinsuk this particular one. A pack of five for three quids

Rolex Gen. Bezel/Back O-Ring Gasket (29.325.10) C8412

This is on the gaskets list for this particular case. I don't know if it'll work. But what the heck. It's cheapo and worth trying.

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[RickFlorida]

33 minutes ago, earloflondon said:

I bought from cousinsuk this particular one. A pack of five for three quids

Rolex Gen. Bezel/Back O-Ring Gasket (29.325.10) C8412

This is on the gaskets list for this particular case. I don't know if it'll work. But what the heck. It's cheapo and worth trying.

Sent from my Lenovo K53a48 using Tapatalk
 

True, but good luck.   I'm not confident the case back has the same groove dimensions that a genuine 5513 caseback does.  It's possible, since they did make the case neck  28.2mm, but I think they only did that so the dial is the same diameter as original.   They probably didn't care what the exact gasket groove size or placement was.  I will be extremely surprised if its' the same.

[earloflondon]

You're right. But again, the true sizes for reps not even for the gens are exactly true. So though there are lists, drawings and stuff if we can find one the only way to find the true match is by trial and error. It's from my humble experience so far plus from reading experiences of others.

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[daovto]

A wealth of sage advice and information here as usual [thanks] and could I ask one question about case back gasket too...

I imagine that the groove [apologies if my terms are incorrect] that the gasket sits in dictates the correct gasket shape unless you are replacing gen with omega spec. So if the groove is cut square would a flat/square gasket work best... and same for a rounded groove?? Or does it not matter so long as it creates the right seal?

[RickFlorida]

7 hours ago, MRWOZZA70 said:

A wealth of sage advice and information here as usual [thanks] and could I ask one question about case back gasket too...

I imagine that the groove [apologies if my terms are incorrect] that the gasket sits in dictates the correct gasket shape unless you are replacing gen with omega spec. So if the groove is cut square would a flat/square gasket work best... and same for a rounded groove?? Or does it not matter so long as it creates the right seal?

Excellent question because I just saw this rectangular shaped gasket on a website.     But I don't think anyone uses those anymore.  It looks like I have my answer (in a way) from the majority of current photos of casebacks.  For the majority of photos, it looks like people use fairly thick round gaskets that fill the entire groove up.  They are round and got to be at least 1mm thick based on these photos.   .80 is too small from what I'm seeing.   

[RickFlorida]

update:

 

It seems the thickest gaskets you see for sale are 1mm.   The groove appears to be 1.2mm but a 1 mm gasket should work because it will "fill" it up as it compresses.  It seems the best place to order precise gaskets and choices is Esslinger.com

 

They have a 32.5mm inside diamter gasket 1mm thick and a 32.75mm gasket at 1mm thick.   I might even order the 33mm gasket as well and then I will just try all three.   Overall the main problem is just the flimsy .60mm thick gaskets they ship with the Cartel case.  Those don't work, you probably need at least .90 to 1mm thick.    While we are on the subject, does anyone know if the cartel casebacks use the same exact threading as an original 5513?  In other words, will original or aftermarket 5513 casebacks screw onto the cartel midcase?

 

Has anyone found 1.1 or 1.2mm thick gaskets for sale?

Edited September 20, 2018 by RickFlorida

[Timelord]

I have been following this thread very carefully and my understanding is that Automatico has the best experience on this with his detailed and informative response.

 

I believe you seem to have a type of case which was most common from Silix which are good cases as I had this same type of case back on an Omega I bought from the original owner of the site some 12 years ago.  Great watch but not a good watch to wear in summer as it too had a flimsy back seal and moisture seemed to creep in on a hot day as the crystal fogged up.  I ordered more then a few back seals all 1.0mm in thickness and they were oval instead of flat. I eventually got the right diameter but still I was not so confident with the thickness as a 1.2mm one would have been better.  

 

I then considered that it couldn't get any worse, so, I had some rocker cover gasket sealant which sealed a nice leak on my car and I slowly used a sharped toothpick to fill in a small film in the groove which was also stepped to make it thicker.  I know it sounds charlatanism but I just wanted something that worked.  Before the sealant totally dried I placed gasket to adhere it in place for it to cure while slowly putting a few light turns onto the mid case just to level out the gasket in the case back.  Once it was cured, I passed some lithium grease from CRC with my forefinger around the gasket.  I then tightened it just enough to feel the gasket compressing. Don't overtighten as it isn't necessary. I also ran out of lubricant so I used singer sewing machine oil on a very small cotton bud onto a tooth pick to lubricate the threads.  Most watch makers and even those here would frown on my ways but  I never ever had problems again even with dipping my arm into the lake with it. Replacing the seal was easy as it just needed to be scraped out with a soft object.

 

Regarding 1.2 mm seals, I recall getting one from a forum member in Australia for a watch that was built there.  So I know they exist but I have since been unsuccessful in locating one

To answer your question on getting a new case back, I believe that the replica cases are a smitch bigger than the genuine cases and it may be risky to get a new case back which may not fit or marry up with the threads especially if the thread taps are different  I suppose someone can correct me on this but unless you prefer to change over the case completely with a case back without this step It then defeats the purpose of your outcome as it is a learning game as well as a project achievement!!!

[RickFlorida]

Great information, Timelord.  Thanks for sharing.   At this point, I'm going with the 1mm thick cross section and will try those 2 or 3 different inner diameters.  I will just use silicone grease for watches and then simply use my water/pressure testing device to test for leaks up to 6 or 8 bar.  thanks for sharing how you did yours.

[horologist]

21 hours ago, RickFlorida said:

Great information, Timelord.  Thanks for sharing.   At this point, I'm going with the 1mm thick cross section and will try those 2 or 3 different inner diameters.  I will just use silicone grease for watches and then simply use my water/pressure testing device to test for leaks up to 6 or 8 bar.  thanks for sharing how you did yours.

Definitely great advice from all those who responded!

 

Are you confident with a watchmakers lathe?  The other possibility is that you can fill in that section completely to make it as flush as possible to even out the step section. Then you can use a seal of any thickness you like provided that the mid case does not have he same issue! The old submariner cases had no groove (from what I remember) to seat the gaskets so I cannot see how this would not work.  

 

Check out the following product. https://www.jbweld.com/products/steelstik-epoxy-putty-stick.  This product is the best invention for me since sliced bread as it keeps me sane especially that I can use it on stainless steel-- one of  my worst enemy! LOL!!

 

i used this to fill in the gasket groove of a heavily pitted case and then evened it out by smoothing it flush with the surface to have a uniform groove so that the seal would sit in nicely!  Let us know how you go? Good luck!

Edited September 22, 2018 by horologist

[automatico]

"Excellent question because I just saw this rectangular shaped gasket on a website.  But I don't think anyone uses those anymore."

 

Seiko uses a lot of the flat gaskets but they tend to crawl out of their shallow groove in the case and get cut or distorted quite a bit.  Some of this trouble is because they are so thin.  Most of them fit around the case back (not in a groove in the case) and as soon as the case back starts compressing the gasket you can not really tell what is happening to the gasket. 

The gasket groove in the case is shallow and the gasket is thin...not a good combo imho.  In this type of case the 'groove' in the case is really just a slight relief cut into the case to help position the gasket.  Sometimes you can see some of the gasket sticking out before you open the watch.

 

Almost all gasket grooves in cases have flat sides and flat bottom areas.  The correct round cross section gasket compresses enough to make it seal in the square area.

 

Bought an assortment of thin flat gaskets from J. Borel years ago and half were black rubber and half were gray plastic.  I might use one or two a year, mostly on Seiko, Pulsar etc.

They are half price now:

 

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.10511/.f?sc=31&category=973256

 

 

 

[RickFlorida]

On 9/22/2018 at 10:10 AM, horologist said:

Definitely great advice from all those who responded!

 

Are you confident with a watchmakers lathe?  The other possibility is that you can fill in that section completely to make it as flush as possible to even out the step section. Then you can use a seal of any thickness you like provided that the mid case does not have he same issue! The old submariner cases had no groove (from what I remember) to seat the gaskets so I cannot see how this would not work.  

 

Check out the following product. https://www.jbweld.com/products/steelstik-epoxy-putty-stick.  This product is the best invention for me since sliced bread as it keeps me sane especially that I can use it on stainless steel-- one of  my worst enemy! LOL!!

 

i used this to fill in the gasket groove of a heavily pitted case and then evened it out by smoothing it flush with the surface to have a uniform groove so that the seal would sit in nicely!  Let us know how you go? Good luck!

Hi there.

 

Great information.  Actually, I did have to use a lathe to completely remove the front of midcase caseneck where the crystal fits over because it was too small.  I'm in the painstaking process of creating a new 'caseneck' and then will have to solder it on or have it laser welded.   As for the back of the case, I'll just try fit a good gasket.  But I like your idea of JB Weld.  For me, I'd rather make repairs with stainless steel as I have a lot of torch and solder equipment as well as skills from making jewelry.

 

Thanks for the JB weld idea but I don't know how it would hold up in saltwater, chlorine, and humidity over time but it does sound very tough.  900 PSI tensile strength and it has steel in the epoxy.   In my experience, very few epoxies can hold up to Florida conditions at the beach which is where I'm at 20% of every day.

[horologist]

1 hour ago, RickFlorida said:

Thanks for the JB weld idea but I don't know how it would hold up in saltwater, chlorine, and humidity over time but it does sound very tough.  900 PSI tensile strength and it has steel in the epoxy.   In my experience, very few epoxies can hold up to Florida conditions at the beach which is where I'm at 20% of every day.

Believe me this stuff works!!!!!
When this first came out I recall having using it in the most extreme and isolated situations of my life. We drove in my Ford 100 with my late father and his cousin from Newcastle to Perth simply because my uncle had a fear of flying in planes.  Now that is a lot of driving and we crossed the Nullarbor when we got stuck in the middle of nowhere when my vehicle overheated from a leak in the radiator.  Dad being a former Commando never left home without carrying with us all his survival kit which included several gallons of tap water especially for washing any mud off the vehicle. I had purchased this product weeks earlier specifically for any of my automotive maintenance and kept it in my glovebox . It was hot as HELL!! as it must have been well over 40 degrees Celsius (105 degrees Fahrenheit) as we could easily fry eggs on the road.  We decided to stop and camp near the closest shade.  

 

The following morning when it was cooler we attempted to address the issue with the Ford and the radiator was a quarter full from the upper leak. Much to our luck having a traditional nuts and bolts rear wheel drive, timing gear engine vehicle with a copper core, we attempted to patch up as best as possible by kneading this putty onto the leak after cleaning it as best as possible.  We had no coolant apart from tap water which we used to get us through the trip.  We finally got to our destination and although I had the radiator replaced it never ever leaked.!!! This is something exposed to the heat of the weather, the boiling tap water filled with other crap as our tap water is full of chlorine and it stood the test.  I am sure your watch will too without having to be put in boiling water !!!! As a disclaimer I have no vested interest in this product either directly or indirectly apart that it is handy to have, 

 

[automatico]

JB Weld 

 

Three things experienced off road motorcycle/4 wheeler riders usually take with them...bottle of engine/trans oil, can of parts cleaner, JB Weld.

Hit a rock and crack the case...lean it over to run the oil to the other side, clean the damaged area with parts cleaner, fill the crack with JB Weld, let it set, pour some oil in if needed, blast off.

Fourth thing is a tow strap...

[earloflondon]

The gasket question ended up in an engine repair thread. How is that now?

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[automatico]

"The gasket question ended up in an engine repair thread. How is that now?"

 

Well...

JB Weld came up as a possible solution to seal a case neck...to keep water (a liquid) OUT of a case.

Next JBW came up as a solution to keeping water (a liquid) IN a radiator.

Then JBW came up in a subject about keeping oil (a liquid) IN a case.

Thereby making all the INS and OUTS closely related by...wait for it...JB Weld!

 

I rest my JB Welded case. 

[RickFlorida]

LOL,  I think it's great.

 

Good info all around, gents!

[horologist]

1 hour ago, automatico said:

"The gasket question ended up in an engine repair thread. How is that now?"

 

Well...

JB Weld came up as a possible solution to seal a case neck...to keep water (a liquid) OUT of a case.

Next JBW came up as a solution to keeping water (a liquid) IN a radiator.

Then JBW came up in a subject about keeping oil (a liquid) IN a case.

Thereby making all the INS and OUTS closely related by...wait for it...JB Weld!

 

I rest my JB Welded case. 

Spot on!!!!  Makes perfect sense to me!!!!!!.  Soon we will need to direct people that to successfully eat -  one needs to open their mouth to avoid mistakes.  LOL!!!!!

[horologist]

10 hours ago, RickFlorida said:

 I'm in the painstaking process of creating a new 'caseneck' and then will have to solder it on or have it laser welded.   

If you can knead the JB weld putty fine enough you may be able to adhere the new case neck onto the case as it will be covered with the bezel.  It is worth a try as this stuff really hardens and sticks well!!!!  It definitely beats heating up the case either by soldering or laser welding as you will be running the risk of  internal stresses into the stainless steel crystal structure when exposing such extreme heat to it.  This opens up a door to other issues such as stress corrosion cracking.  When stainless steel is welded, it is usually pickled with Nitric acid.  To beat the odds of any possible other issues is to anneal the mid case a couple of times after the weld!!! 

 

Another possibility is to make a loop from the JB weld putty and stick it onto the case top and then try to machine the cured putty and shape out the case neck to your specifications and see what happens!!!  All you want is for it to hold the crystal and bezel as it wont be visible.  This material cures like steel!!!!  Good luck and  let us know how you go

[earloflondon]

The next step will be to machine a whole case out of a JBWeld blank.

One may further try to make a mold from JBWeld using an ss case, pour some molten solder in it and make a case

This is really an instructive, inspiring and entertaining discussion. Seriously

Check this out. I used a soft temperature resistant engine sealant, they call liquid gasket, something like that, on my daily diving wearer, since I can't find the original o-rings anymore.

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[horologist]

9 minutes ago, earloflondon said:

The next step will be to machine a whole case out of a JBWeld blank.

One may further try to make a mold from JBWeld using an ss case, pour some molten solder in it and make a case

This is really an instructive, inspiring and entertaining discussion. Seriously

Check this out. I used a soft temperature resistant engine sealant, they call liquid gasket, something like that, on my daily diving wearer, since I can't find the original o-rings anymore.

Sent from my Lenovo K53a48 using Tapatalk
 

Joking apart, I agree!!

however making a complete case by machining one out of a block of any metal is more elaborate than it would seem?  The accuracy and precision in addition  to the skills of the machinist would be a very fine challenge.  Most of these replica cases are made in the thousands and the initial tooling setup and prototype would pay off for the mass production.  I myself like the idea!

 

As for the sealant, i like that too and Timelord also suggested it in his reply!  I used a product called gasket goo which is tolerant to high stress and pressure for the automotive maintenance!

i too have made seals for some of my watches where original spec ones are not easily found or discontinued!  I even see it in my old 1970's kelvinator fridge when I changed the thermostat and works a charm!   

[tobi007]

I tried to get my cartel case water tight with an 32mm x 1mm gasket, unfortunately it is not tight. Which size is correct? 1.2mm? 1.5mm?
I found only an source for 1.5mm thick gaskets.

[Guest keeper]

This O ring...gasket... as you Septic's call it, is not for the amateur.

The fits, finish and tolerances of all components are well beyond the home cooker...