1016 Franken strategic issues

[Serafino]

Okay so I'm back, hopefully this project will finally gel.  Gen dial in a 160XX case with ETA movement.

 

Anyone out there who can reliably mod an ETA 28XX to take gen 1570 dial feet?  It seems to be a labor of love as you come very close to moving parts.  Thoughts on how to go about it also appreciated, as I am going to do it myself if I can't get someone else to do it.  Hand filed slots seems to be the safest procedure.  Just the thing for a capable machinist though, that would be awesome if the holes were drilled instead of slots.

 

(If anyone has drawings of a 1570 I would love to get my hands on that, I can measure my dial but I'd love to work this out with official dimensions before I start filing.)

 

Anyone making 1016 bezels? JMB isn't, last I heard.  I have plans to try doing it myself here too but would love not to have to.

 

I'm going the 2824 route, I plan to shim the dial spacer and my watchmaker will do the hand height conversion during the service (chrono movement, mwahahaa)

 

I'm also concerned to minimize shifting of the movement and dial in the case, mainly to help preserve the dial. At this point I will likely use a Raffles #2 movement ring but is there any benefit to using the Tudor/34mm version?  I see that sometimes recommended and I'm not clear on the benefits.  I'm aware of the Yuki ones but seems a lot to pay for something easily broken and not that upgraded from other options.  If only Stilty had leased his design to someone to produce.

 

Also with regard to sparing the dial, is there a reliable way to keep it attached to the movement? I was wondering if there might be a way to add locking screws to the main plate at the newly cut slots. I gather hypo cement is not good enough for keeping dial and movement together over time.  Maybe epoxied feet in ETA positions, I think that is reasonably reversible?

 

As always, any help much appreciated!

[alligoat]

I think you may be barking up the wrong tree thinking you can drill holes in a 2824-2 movement to fit a 1016 gen dial on there. You could remove the dial feet and glue a new set in the eta positions, but then you've ruined a gen dial. Or you can buy a 1570/1520 movement and use that. Lastly, you could buy a Yuki eta 1016 dial and sell the gen dial- selling the gen dial would probably pay for the whole build.

https://www.yukiwatch.com/catalog/item/7518423/10260988.htm

BTW, you get a set of eta hands when you buy the Yuki dial.

I used a 1601 case when I built my 1016 Explorer and a 2824-2 movement- worked like a charm.

But if you're going into a 16013, 16014 or a 16030 case, you might have to use a 2836-2 movement unless your spacer moves the stem of the 2824-2 down to where it lines up with the case hole correctly. I used 2836-2s when I built my 16013 and 16014 DJ frankens. A 2846-2 would be the same as a 2836-2 as far as dimensions and would give you the slower beat closer to a 1570/1520.

Seems like I ran across a smooth bezel on ebay

https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-STEEL-SMOOTH-BEZEL-FOR-MENS-VINTAGE-36MM-ROLEX-DATEJUST-OR-EXPLORER-WATCH-CASE/142894860301?hash=item214532880d:g:218AAOSw44BYId4w

maybe this would work.

I would think the raffles #2 ring would work fine- that's what I've been using.

Also, a T-21  has the same ID as a T-22, but the T-22 is a thicker crystal and might not fit a DJ bezel w/o a lot of sanding.

[Serafino]

Hey Alligoat!  I recognize your lovely 1601 project, still looking great.

 

Yes I nearly went with a 2836, after I finally figured out the solution to the fact the stem height is .1 mm low, but I'm attached to getting a Top or better grade, which are very rare in 2836s.  I don't mind spending a little time and money on spacing the 2824 .35 mm downwards.  Hand stack parts in various heights seem to be available lately.

The 1570 pins just miss moving parts in an ETA, there are pictures of a slotted example here:

 

 

I gotta do it, gen has characteristics I can't get anywhere else.  Just want to do it as well as can be.

 

I'm holding out for a bezel with the proper OD.  Pain in the butt but what can you do.  There's one or two on Ebay that might be mod-able to work based on scaling the photos but it's from the Evil One so I'm not chancing $80.  I may go with a T-21 crystal though, my modified T-22 isn't lensing incoming light right.

 

Thanks for your thoughts, further thoughts welcome!

[tomhorn]

You may want to review my thread (linked below) for building a 160xx cased 1016 Explorer. Has the complete parts list of what I used.

 

Too bad that JMB isn't still doing custom bezels. His fit perfectly on a gen T22. Losing that resource and Whoopy's dials makes the 1016 Explorer builds a little trickier than they used to be.

[pezzy]

have you looked at the ruby vietnam dials? they look pretty decent imo. probably better to get one of those than to butcher a gen dial.

and watch out for the current yuki 1016 eta dial with the white markers. crappy looking font. the one with the yellow markers is still nice. but you'd be hard pressed to find nice hands to match that yellow. i went with raffles orange hands. the colours are pretty close, but the hands are pretty fugly lol.

[maikol]

I made a bezel for t22 glass.
Ask me if you want one.

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[Serafino]

Well done on making a bezel at all.  Overhang looks about right, but for some reason the angle of the main bevel seems steep for a 1016.  Perhaps the flat on top is too wide?  I can't tell in the photo, reflections might be part of it.

[maikol]

Here

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[Serafino]

Thank you Maikol for posting the pictures!  Your bezel does not have the proportions and angles of the cleanest 1016 examples with good provenance I have seen in photos.  It has a datejust feel to it.  To be fair, I have seen possibly original examples with individual features seen on yours, but never all together on one, with the resulting steep primary angle.

 

[maikol]

This is the best I was able to do with the image in my possession. If you have a 1016 case profile I can do it more like the Gen one.
It is more like the jmb one. I no see difference.
Regards

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[pezzy]

never really paid attention to the bezel. but the gen does indeed look to be flatter in profile. will have to look at my jmb one tonight to see if it's shaped like the gen.

[Serafino]

Bezel is one of the things which give 1016s their distinctive character.  Even that 1969 is at the steeper end of the spectrum.  One wonders if they were hand turned to a few dimensions, with convention and rule of thumb only loosely controlling the details.  That one has a service dial.  I wonder (idly and with no foundation) if it is also a later bezel.

[pezzy]

found some quality control pics from jmb in my inbox, and the bezel is shaped like the gen. i've always wondered why his bezel was praised so much, now i know why.

imo, if you're that adamant about the details, i'd just buy a gen. to get it looking gen, you're going to be spending some $$$, probably in the vicinity of $2k or more unless you can diy everything. you can find them for around $20k, which is not a lot of money if you consider how much you'll be dropping towards a watch that is at the end of the day a rep. plus the time spent sourcing and modifying everything can use be used to save up the dough for a gen. this was my thought when i was building mine.

[Serafino]

I appreciate the suggestion, definitely tempting, but I'm actually going to be happier not carrying $13-20k on my wrist, and paying through the nose to have it serviced.  Not to mention I would hate to have to decide for myself that the one I was buying was legit (leave aside the lousy condition most of them are in now).  The gen world is a real minefield.  I don't think all or even most of the online 'expert sellers' really know as much as they need to.  I got my 160XX case back when they were more reasonable, and it's in fair shape.  I may well make the bezel myself although some options are appearing.  I will be quite content when this thing is finished.

[automatico]

"found some quality control pics from jmb in my inbox, and the bezel is shaped like the gen. i've always wondered why his bezel was praised so much, now i know why."

 

JMB did a very good job on the 1016 bezels, no question about it.

"imo, if you're that adamant about the details, i'd just buy a gen."

 

I bet many of the 'genuine' loose bezels for sale today have been made in someone's basement or garage and artificially aged. 

Q -- Why would I say that??

A -- Because I can crank one out  in a few hours.

Some of the bezels on '100% genuine' watches are probably garage projects too. 

Q -- Why?

A --  Because it is the nature of the high $$ vintage watch hobby/busine$$  (and 'human nature').

 

Q -- What is the problem with making a few?

A -- The ST smooth bezels are about 34.5mm in diameter and afaik the genuine is closer to 35.0mm.  The JMB bezel is 35.0mm and If the .5mm difference really matters to someone, the bezel would have to be made from scratch out of a blank made from a slice of seamless stainless steel pipe etc and that takes longer because much more metal has to be removed compared to the ST bezel.

Otoh it is very hard to tell a bezel with 34.5mm OD from one with 35.0mm OD mounted on a watch because the difference when looking down at the watch is only .25mm on each side.  Very hard.

I never measured a genuine 1016 bezel when I had the chance because back then there was no need to know.

 

"you can find them (1016) for around $20k, which is not a lot of money if you consider how much you'll be dropping towards a watch that is at the end of the day a rep."

 

I remember when you could buy a new 1016 for around $400 and later on, very nice used examples when they were getting 'hot' were going for $1000/$1500 at watch shows...so $20k for one today is not in my small realm of reality. 

Besides that, there is No Way I would consider paying very much for any overpriced (imho) watch today unless I had a buyer standing by with their $$ in my hand.

Q -- Why their $$ in my hand?

A -- Because watch buyers are infamously famous for backing out of deals.  This is from experience as well as hearsay.

 

For someone who can do the work, a good quality 'swisseta' JMB '1016' could end up costing around $600 to $700:

JMB case $$?? can not remember exactly, guessing $250 to $300.  Anyone know?

Dial...about $100 to begin with but a good used example might be found for around $50.

ETA swiss 2824/2846 'combo' mvt...about $100/$125 because you will still have another combo movement left from the parts.

Hands...ST, about $15.

Change the case tube from 5.3mm to regular 6.0 (drill/tap the case) with a used genuine crown...about $50.

Oyster style or quality 'jubilee' with screws...$55 or $60.

580 hoods...$25 from WSO990 to go with the oyster bct.

Spring bars, gaskets etc...about $20

Case spacer...$5

Labor...$0  This can be a big factor if you have to farm it out.  Probably $300 or $400 for a project like this.

The total...$600/$700 approx.

 

Q -- So...what is it 'worth'?

A -- At least the going price for the sum of the parts is my guess.

 

Case profiles from:  https://rwg.cc/topic/159773-1601-case/

 

 

[Serafino]

It's been 8 years already since I got heavily into bezel research, how time flies.  I was satisfied with my understanding then but I'm wanting to review my thinking before committing to metal.

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Serafino

[maikol]

I think that I have to try 35mm.
Tomorrow I ask to Cnc man if can do a bezel for me.
Stay Connect.
@Serafino if you have the correct size tell me I will do one

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[jmb]

On 2/5/2020 at 2:26 PM, tomhorn said:

Too bad that JMB isn't still doing custom bezels. His fit perfectly on a gen T22. 

 

????

[Serafino]

Hiya J, last I heard it was case sets only?    I'll be glad to find out otherwise. 😎

[pezzy]

^his case sets include the bezel as well. god bless that man.

[Serafino]

Right but the point is he told me he's not selling bezels separately anymore.

[pezzy]

ah ok. i'll let you guys work it out

Edited February 12, 2020 by pezzy

[DB5]

Hi guys I am new to watches and just started the hobby 2 years back and am 15 watch old with some 5 divers 2 tool 1 field few seiko 5s and dress watches of brands like orient, seiko,timex, rotary and casios. But the one watch which stands out and takes most of my wrist time is my raffles ETA based 1016 franken.see pics below

Hope u guys like it its around 220$. But now I am finding somethings which are missing like drilled lugs and curved bevel clear crystal. I have bought clarks t22 for my 16200 case but my watch repair guy says it will not fit the raffles explorer case any help would be highly appreciated. Thank you.

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by DB5

[maikol]

8 minutes ago, DB5 said:

Hi guys I am new to watches and just started the hobby 2 years back and am 15 watch old with some 5 divers 2 tool 1 field few seiko 5s and dress watches of brands like orient, seiko,timex, rotary and casios. But the one watch which stands out and takes most of my wrist time is my raffles ETA based 1016 franken. Heres the pic https://ibb.co/PW78S7D

Hope u guys like it its around 220$. But now I am finding somethings which are missing like drilled lugs and curved bevel clear crystal. I have bought clarks t22 for my 16200 case but my watch repair guy says it will not fit the raffles explorer case any help would be highly appreciated. Thank you.

 

you need a custom bezel for fit the t22 xstal .

14 hours ago, pezzy said:

ah ok. i'll let you guys work it out

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i hope tomorrow i will mod mine to look more like a  onion 

[DB5]

Onion???

3 minutes ago, maikol said:

 

you need a custom bezel for fit the t22 xstal .

 

i hope tomorrow i will mod mine to look more like a  onion 

Can I mod the existing bezel of 16200 and what needs to be modified in it and what tools are needed to do that. Thanks in advance.