automatico Posted July 1, 2023 Report Share Posted July 1, 2023 If anyone (other than me) is crazy enough to go down the rabbit hole on a '1655' project using a Rolex 15xx movement, here is the 'short scoop' on hands from what I learned the hard way. Learned? More or Less. After all, I have not quit on it yet. Genuine hands are up for sale on eBay etc. from $3500 (!!) to maybe $1200 and can go from nos, to pretty good, down to ratty. My 'shortcut 1655' project has been abandoned and the no hack 1575 movement is now in a 1002 with Yuki 'explorer' dial, minus the date parts. I had a pretty good set of aftmkt hands on it but with them being r/r maybe 20 times during the 'shorcut experiment', I need a better set for the next round with a 1575 hack movement, same 'shortcut' parts, and a J$W com case/dial. Sooner or later...I'm still gathering up parts. I kept a lookout on eBay, Chrono24 etc. and landed on a few pretty good sets of aftmkt '1655' hands for the Rolex 15xx movement on eBay after giving up on genuine hands. As of today (7-1-23) there are a couple sets of good aftmkt hands on eBay: Imho, the best deal is from 'watchpartsking' at $115 plus $4.99 shipping. eBay item number: 185791782661 Second best is Phong (guessing going by the address) at $195 plus $9.50 shipping. eBay item number: 234857545475 Both sets are very good, and I would go with the lower priced set only because of the price. Last choice is the set from WSO990 at $34.95 but they are not very accurate compared to genuine. The lume stripes are too long, too wide, too close to the hubs, and the black painted area is too short. The price is right though. eBay item number: 310304838749 I would not use them on a project and listed them for comparison. Today's highest price for a set of genuine 'straight second hand' 1655 hands goes to: eBay item number: 153524838667 at $3500 plus $65 shipping from Brazil. If you want a 'straight second hand' to go with an aftmkt hand set, a suitable 'straight second hand' with a long tube can be found on the 'net for around $10...paint it white, and age it. I found a few in my parts from other projects that are exactly the same as genuine except for the color. You need a long second hand tube because it has to pass through all the GMT and date works on top of the movement. Rolex hands were made mostly by Universal, Virex, and Fiedler. They made millions of hands for many brands and since Rolex 1655 'straight sweep second hands' are not out of the ordinary, it is fairly easy to find a duplicate. Otoh...a 'common sense 1655 project' would be an accurate cartel case, good dial/hands, and Swiss ETA 2846 with Asian GMT conversion, or lower $$ DG 3804. Building an MBW Sub + 'shortcut' rlx 1560/70 GMT conversions... - Page 2 - The Rolex Area - RWG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted July 3, 2023 Report Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) On 7/2/2023 at 2:25 AM, automatico said: If anyone (other than me) is crazy enough to go down the rabbit hole on a '1655' project using a Rolex 15xx movement, here is the 'short scoop' on hands from what I learned the hard way. This thread and your previous linked threads are GOLD!!! Unique and very helpful in addition to being very educational for those extending beyond just watchmaking!! The custom build of a GMT replica or a modified Franken is one of the toughest challenges that truly separates, both; the skills and brilliance, between mainstream watchmaking and the brave fine artisan in working outside the square of the square. I would have to be very brave and highly skilled to tackle something like this because of all the hidden unknown complexities that are involved in addition to the absurd high costs of trivial obsolete spare parts involved!! This is where you have both the odds and the Gods against you!!! On 7/2/2023 at 2:25 AM, automatico said: Otoh...a 'common sense 1655 project' would be an accurate cartel case, good dial/hands, and Swiss ETA 2846 with Asian GMT conversion, or lower $$ DG 3804. I have had a lust for a BASIC quality GMT build for many years, but have not been game enough to take on the challenge !!! Even then the one I am focusing on is just a sapphire crystal 16610 style that uses a quality replica case with a base eta 2836-2 Why?? Firstly, I would prefer a genuine eta movement in my build for the purpose of parts interchangeability as I have had issues with eta clones when changing over parts. Secondly, to my knowledge Eta have never made a genuine 2836-2 which has the same modification of the GMT like the Asian copy Silver Hangzhou HZ6460 , unless the clone conversion part of it fits well on a genuine eta 2836-2 and I can be done with it!!! One may try the 2893-2 which is the factory genuine modification of the 2892-2 movement which is a lot thinner than both the 2836-2 and the 2824-2. My issue with this movement is ; (a) I don't like this movement ! PERIOD!!! as it is not as easy to service as the 2824-2/2836-2 ( well for me anyway!! especially locating parts availability) (b) it is more expensive than the other eta movements and (c) using it in an eta 2836-2 quality case would present problems (because it is a thinner movement) with stem alignment and the issue of using the right spacers would defeat the purpose of taking on the headache and it is still an eta movement. In my opinion the 2892-2 reminds me of the old Universal movement which brings back lots of bad memories from when I was working on an old watch causing me grief!!! My understanding is that the 2892-2 movement has the same dial feet positioning as the 2824-2 but dials made for the latter will fit well on the 2892-2 but not the other way as dials made for it have shorter feet. My other issue is that buying a Cartel case is not so easy to find either and even so they are getting expensive for what they are!! I was able to buy good quality economy eta cases from YUKI but his website no longer lists cases any more ( well at least when I last looked() One can say that you can get cheap SS cases on eBay for under USD50 which is fair enough but these cases have fixed case tubes that are not easily removable in the event you want to replace a replica crown with replica threaded tube. I have been caught out with this on the economy replica cases which are really disposable when the crown thread wears. They seem to wear very prematurely. Even finding a stainless steel generic screw down crown for any divers watch regardless of brand is a challenge of it's own. I have several near mint condition citizen divers cases which are now absolutely junk as replacement stainless steel screw down crowns are near impossible to find!! I applaud your project as they are a great learning course tutorial for those brave enough to take on the challenge!! Thank you for sharing this new horizon experience!!! Edited July 3, 2023 by horologist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted July 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2023 "I applaud your project..." Thanks Horo! "...unless the clone conversion part of it fits well on a genuine eta 2836-2 and I can be done with it!!!" I have used the GMT parts from an Asian 2836 GMT on a genuine ETA 2836 and they worked fine. The hand stack is right for a vintage type project and wrong for a modern type watch. The 24H hand is not adjustable on any of my etaclone or Swiss ETA GMT movements (except one in a modern etaclone Exp II), so they are better suited for vintage projects. "One may try the 2893-2 which is the factory genuine modification of the 2892-2 movement which is a lot thinner than both the 2836-2 and the 2824-2." The 2893 GMT is Ok imho but it is expensive, $395 on ST now. The good part is the 24H hand is adjustable and will work on modern type watches. It is a bit thinner than a 2836 conversion though...4.1mm compared to 5.1mm for a 2836. "My understanding is that the 2892-2 movement has the same dial feet positioning as the 2824-2 but dials made for the latter will fit well on the 2892-2 but not the other way as dials made for it have shorter feet." If the dial feet are a bit short, you can usually get by as long as they go into the movement far enough to keep the dial in place. The case clamps will need to supply enough tension to hold it all together though. "My other issue is that buying a Cartel case is not so easy to find either and even so, they are getting expensive for what they are!! I was able to buy good quality economy eta cases from YUKI but his website no longer lists cases anymore (well at least when I last looked.)" Good quality, affordable cases for 4 and 5 digit GMT projects are getting very hard to find (especially 1655 and 1675) and it looks like Yuki is out of the case business. I lucked out by buying a few '16710' Swiss ETA GMT watches with Asian 24H conversions (non adj 24H/hands) back when they were available. Also got one Swiss ETA '16750' with acrylic crystal and printed markers but the dial has 'OPD' at the top, not 'OP' as it should. I doubt anyone would notice...except repnuts of course. Ha! Also got a few '16710' with DG 3804 and have worn one now and then for 6 or 8 years with no trouble at all. The bracelets are very good with hollow mid links and the reflectors (rehauts) are a little bit 'wokky' but not too bad. I could remove the guts and machine the ID of the reflector out a little to hide the 'wok' but never did. "Even finding a stainless steel generic screw down crown for any divers watch regardless of brand is a challenge of it's own. I have several near mint condition citizen divers cases which are now absolutely junk as replacement stainless steel screw down crowns are near impossible to find!!" You are right about Citizen crowns. I have a few 200M Cit-Eco divers with red dials (red!) and the crown threads look fragile to me. The only thing that saves them is the fact they are quartz and do not need setting very much. Mechanical watches are another story. Crank, crank, crank...strip. In another case of 'dumb luck' I bought ten or twelve 7mm crown/tube sets from TC back when he was in the rep biz. Have one 8mm 'Brevet' crown from Athaya but never used it. His crowns and tubes must be Ok as there are very few complaints about them. A '16710' with DG 3804 in Black & White... Wok, Wok! Not really as bad as it looks. In the dark. The Swiss ETA models are better. I'll dig one out soon and post a pic. TC crowns/tubes in Living Color... Pic from today, date on the can is when I got them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted July 4, 2023 Report Share Posted July 4, 2023 20 hours ago, automatico said: "The only thing that saves them is the fact they are quartz and do not need setting very much. Mechanical watches are another story. Crank, crank, crank...strip. This is the biggest flaw I hate about divers watches in general regardless of if they are some high collectible rare Milsub or a cheap pulsar at the local fuel station! I hate the fact that quality stainless steel screw down crowns are hard to get regardless of brand! I have a 1960’s Pronto divers watch with a quality eta 2472 and a stripped stainless steel screw down crown! I have searched years without success to find a quality suitable replacement! I have found chrome plated substitutes which only last a year at maximum and then you have to replace it! Removing the case tube every so often is also fatigue to the case opening as they also come with different thread pitch and both tube and crown need replacing! So there are only two options: (1)give up and store the watch away as a souvenir or (2) do away with the screw down crown and replace case tube and normal crown which is just another watch that looks like a divers watch! I find this a turnoff ! This was also the bigger turn off from my liking of the precision Rolex Oysfer which are manual winding watches! This IMHO makes the watch a inferior quality product as it is a high level maintenance item not properly justifying the price one pays for! The same analogy can be applied to the manual wind. Cosmograph that many collectors pay the same price of a house ! BTW thanks for all the info on the eta eta 2836-2GMT conversion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pompompurin Posted July 4, 2023 Report Share Posted July 4, 2023 (edited) On 7/2/2023 at 12:55 AM, automatico said: Imho, the best deal is from 'watchpartsking' at $115 plus $4.99 shipping. Have you checked these? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234857548399 IMO, the above ones are even better because 1. the seconds hand is much more accurate to the genuine (e.g., the seconds hand's tip is tapered and the end circle is not as big as the middle circle) 2. the proportion of the black colour on the hour/ minute is much more accurate to genuine By the way, i really enjoyed your thread about genuine 1575 GMT movements vs conversion ones. Thank you for sharing. I am still looking for a conversion kit for my 1560 movement, but I was quoted 1k USD for a Vietnam conversion kit which is out of my budget. Edited July 4, 2023 by pompompurin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timelord Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 15 hours ago, horologist said: This is the biggest flaw I hate about divers watches in general regardless of if they are some high collectible rare Milsub or a cheap pulsar at the local fuel station! I hate the fact that quality stainless steel screw down crowns are hard to get regardless of brand! I don't want to hijack this thread, but I think the screw down crown is really only useful for deep diving if you are a diver. Would you really take a 5 digit figure $ watch or a high quality replica to go diving? I wouldn't!!! . Most watches that are water resistant to some 50 meters also pass the pressure test without a screw down crown and I don't even think to go below 10 meters when swimming. I would be happy with a good quality crown with good seals that seal nicely around the case tube and its fine with me. You would change the seals of the crown or even the crown and tube at each service anyway. This marketing hype of a screw down crown on a mechanical watch that need s to be adjusted every 28 days for the calendar setting at minimum even if your watch was as accurate as a quartz watch would wear out the threads very quickly!! A junk feature really unless you have a full jar of spares!!! I would never unscrew my crown and just shake the watch at the time it has stopped to get it going at the right time and crown would last forever. The date would only serve as a cosmetic so I would be better off with a non date submariner if I really cringed for the screw down crown as a fetish that I needed to have!!! I agree they are a nuisance especially when unavailable as spares! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted July 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2023 "This was also the bigger turn off from my liking of the precision Rolex Oyster which are manual winding watches!" Agree. 'Hand crankers' should have non screw down crowns imho. "Have you checked these?" https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234857548399 Thanks! They do look good, I've not decided on a lume dot SS hand or a straight SS hand yet. This summer is going to be busy so there will be very little watch work and plenty time to decide. "I don't want to hijack this thread, but I think the screw down crown is really only useful for deep diving if you are a diver. " Agree. Many older ISO certified 200M dive watches did not have screw down crowns, some Bulovas for example. I guess one problem with nsd crowns might be if you snagged the crown on something and pulled it out to setting position while deep underwater, allowing one O ring to come off the case tube. I doubt the crown would come out far enough to allow both O rings to come off the tube, but one might cause a leak. Worse than that...you might pull the crown and stem out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted July 6, 2023 Report Share Posted July 6, 2023 2 hours ago, automatico said: Agree. Many older ISO certified 200M dive watches did not have screw down crowns, some Bulovas for example. Wow! I learn something new everyday! I was unaware of this as I was not old enough at the time these were sold new for me to have noticed it! I was always under the impression that those older ISO certified 200M dive watches without the screw down crown must have had them replaced at some stage! This now makes sense as I had a 1970 Bulova manual wind divers with a signed crown and I often wondered whether it was originally sold that way or later replaced by a Bulova certified watch smith! I also have a 1960’s Australian Built Swiss “Felicia” brand watch (exclusive to Australian market) somewhere amongst my clutter which is ISO certified with no screw down crown! I picked it up at a pawnbroker for $20 about 10years ago! Great timekeeper housing a bidynator Felsa 4007N movement! So smooth when rotor winds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1019 lover Posted August 14, 2023 Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 Hey, have you checked yuki for the 1655 handset ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted August 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 "Hey, have you checked yuki for the 1655 handset ?" Yes, they look pretty good, but this kills it: "Flat rate shipping cost : USD 48.00 to worldwide." Besides that, hands used to be included with their dials at about the same prices as today with free delivery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtools Posted August 15, 2023 Report Share Posted August 15, 2023 https://www.ebay.com/itm/185791782661?hash=item2b420d9f05:g:TTsAAOSw2l5j-l4P&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4EwcL%2Fh13b6rrO6fna%2B7%2B6H8M10LssJzeDGxBANMXzsz00zw9%2FmsY6ElzNJW%2Bjumrv50syLdUtaWMVRwO7PeqMk2tMp9PvNFWXsjAINsoTy2%2FWdShSb6kINvGMGMKyG1GQ2P8GNON4zrRVAND0PHEh27QjNvhsy7DAY2p3SwyH1uJMLeyhMMI0QJdllnbhO%2FoV4DVCEngQNU8mYBTRWEIb%2BVeycAEEAiAOGb8Qg2%2BwCgf5SE4VowhgMKZLcv7DRIjMRG8ckS9VGfzE4PPq%2FcA55rjL3jQk%2B3ida8hrgUkUaE|tkp%3ABk9SR9bklfK-Yg How are these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted August 15, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2023 "How are these?" They look good and I put them on my 'get it' list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizgoog Posted October 31, 2023 Report Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) On 7/2/2023 at 12:55 AM, automatico said: If anyone (other than me) is crazy enough to go down the rabbit hole on a '1655' project using a Rolex 15xx movement, here is the 'short scoop' on hands from what I learned the hard way. Learned? More or Less. After all, I have not quit on it yet. Genuine hands are up for sale on eBay etc. from $3500 (!!) to maybe $1200 and can go from nos, to pretty good, down to ratty. My 'shortcut 1655' project has been abandoned and the no hack 1575 movement is now in a 1002 with Yuki 'explorer' dial, minus the date parts. I had a pretty good set of aftmkt hands on it but with them being r/r maybe 20 times during the 'shorcut experiment', I need a better set for the next round with a 1575 hack movement, same 'shortcut' parts, and a J$W com case/dial. Sooner or later...I'm still gathering up parts. I kept a lookout on eBay, Chrono24 etc. and landed on a few pretty good sets of aftmkt '1655' hands for the Rolex 15xx movement on eBay after giving up on genuine hands. As of today (7-1-23) there are a couple sets of good aftmkt hands on eBay: Imho, the best deal is from 'watchpartsking' at $115 plus $4.99 shipping. eBay item number: 185791782661 Second best is Phong (guessing going by the address) at $195 plus $9.50 shipping. eBay item number: 234857545475 Both sets are very good, and I would go with the lower priced set only because of the price. Last choice is the set from WSO990 at $34.95 but they are not very accurate compared to genuine. The lume stripes are too long, too wide, too close to the hubs, and the black painted area is too short. The price is right though. eBay item number: 310304838749 I would not use them on a project and listed them for comparison. Today's highest price for a set of genuine 'straight second hand' 1655 hands goes to: eBay item number: 153524838667 at $3500 plus $65 shipping from Brazil. If you want a 'straight second hand' to go with an aftmkt hand set, a suitable 'straight second hand' with a long tube can be found on the 'net for around $10...paint it white, and age it. I found a few in my parts from other projects that are exactly the same as genuine except for the color. You need a long second hand tube because it has to pass through all the GMT and date works on top of the movement. Rolex hands were made mostly by Universal, Virex, and Fiedler. They made millions of hands for many brands and since Rolex 1655 'straight sweep second hands' are not out of the ordinary, it is fairly easy to find a duplicate. Otoh...a 'common sense 1655 project' would be an accurate cartel case, good dial/hands, and Swiss ETA 2846 with Asian GMT conversion, or lower $$ DG 3804. Building an MBW Sub + 'shortcut' rlx 1560/70 GMT conversions... - Page 2 - The Rolex Area - RWG Hey @automatico Loving your threads... !! I have a franken with gen mk1 dial that is missing the seconds hand.... Couple of questions: 1. do you have a link of "plug and play" straight seconds hand that is same as original? 2. what are the specs? i.e. tube diameter / length? I've been searching but not sure which search term to use... most of the "straight" seconds hands I've seen aren't exactly the same as gen (tapered, different proportions etc) For example this one on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/201020525701?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110013%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIMRXI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D256454%26meid%3Df6d58ed81ecd464e9858373523e43080%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D125128804918%26itm%3D201020525701%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D4429486%26algv%3DPromotedRVIPbooster%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p4429486.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A201020525701f6d58ed81ecd464e9858373523e43080|enc%3AAQAIAAABAJsbtOKd5uIU0OgsJNCgXCPpbiXLSDbGu8lyFnuVypcyLLplowGBFD52tEZQRvGaDs7owvm7dxrvq0EilbyQQrIBdpEp9TJK8Wb6G4Svf9tipRs8RlrbkD6FWKdiEsFpgaxgaMnzaJ2HHz0sSyUgLRLJrNfMPhVP7yGD75p8OkOvrdBH8lht89%2B%2BFEr6RVsKui0C0R2Kq4y0yXq%2F%2FX%2FuFEhj98IO2eHK8TQYOd1708hRpSktk%2Fz8eIn9a5iD3Zc5CDyQyg7f4WIUUGuIb19xy%2Bv%2BcNO1U0Q7zVAqeGb8D7n5iGjseVXVZCi7QI4JgYKus2Z1QrODwJzG%2FSc0IBKAcPM%3D|ampid%3APL_CLK|clp%3A4429486 The short end is tapered, and the "circle" around the axis looks smaller than gen version, so not quite a match. Thanks! Edited October 31, 2023 by pizgoog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted November 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2023 1. do you have a link of "plug and play" straight seconds hand that is same as original? I found similar straight SS hands on Esslinger's site. You will need a hand with a long tube because it has to pass through the calendar works, 24H hand, H hand, M hand, and SS hand. If it is too long, you can grind it down to fit. Buy 3 (they do not cost much) so if you mess one (or two) up you will have a spare. All Rolex 15xx sweep second pinions are the same length and the second hands have longer or shorter tubes to compensate. 2. what are the specs? i.e. tube diameter / length? You need a tube for a .20mm pivot, you can find all this info on the 'net. If the hand is too long, you can usually get by shortening it...another reason to get three. Ha! 1530/60/70 etc. H 1.20mm M .80mm SS .20mm 24H 1.9mm Good luck! Watch Hand Refills Regular, Medium and Long Post Style Sweep Second Hand (esslinger.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pizgoog Posted November 1, 2023 Report Share Posted November 1, 2023 Thanks for sharing the knowledge and the link! I would have not found esslinger if not for you Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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