Andrew & Josh's Response To The Little White Lies Thread...

[r11co]

Am I asking too much to think we deserve better? It appears to me that the majority of posters here thought a line had been crossed and that the reply from Andrew/Josh says "Yes, and suck it up. There's more to come."

Am I honestly asking too much? If the consensus is that their response is satisfactory, I'll drop my plea. However, if, like me, you can smell a bit too much weasel and worm, then please say so. This is not the time to keep quiet for fear of rocking the boat.

Unsatisfactory.

But, as my long post in the 'little white lies' thread has pointed out, I had already voted some time ago with my wallet. The mis-representations and sleekit behaviour are not a recent phenomenon. I'll seek the watch elsewhere or go without rather than buy again from Trusty, and this 'wormy' response only re-inforces my decision.

This was a time for gestures, not excuses.

[jonthebhoy]

11 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)11 Members: jonthebhoy, r11co, Chicken Manny, NRG, Estaban, trustywatchguy, Jos Nana, Mark, socom, razafina, CJVCMC

[r11co]

Pleased to know it. I don't imagine tears are being shed at Trusty HQ over the loss of one customer out of 'those suckers' at RWG (I thought the "experts" jibe was particularly telling, as if to say 'what do you guys really know...'), but I'll keep buying watches, so I hope they remember that my money is still good and they aren't seeing any of it.

[NRG]

Round and around it goes again, where will it stop, nobody knows.

… Am I honestly asking too much? If the consensus is that their response is satisfactory, I'll drop my plea. However, if, like me, you can smell a bit too much weasel and worm, then please say so. This is not the time to keep quiet for fear of rocking the boat.

OK, thanks…

... If this is true, why call it an "Asian ETA" or just an "ETA" instead of calling it an "ETA copy"? I can think of only one reason - the belief that this labeling will lead to more sales because consumers will think they are purchasing an ETA movement when in fact they are not - they are purchasing a copy of an ETA movement (would you like to try and purchase a real rolex and get a copy of one instead?). The definition of deception is "providing intentionally misleading information to others." Is it intentionally misleading to label a watch as ETA when it is not ETA at all? Why not just be up front and state what it is to begin with?....

I bought a Rolex from some Guy called TTK, it looks like this:

It’s got Rolex stamped on the dial, and it only costs £55 delivered! Imagine my horror when it arrived and I realized it was a fake Rolex! Not a real one at all! I feel cheated, I demand my money back!

I say this subject should be dropped. I empathize with the call for ‘honest’ advertising but really guys when I see people posting using words like dishonest, fraud, fraudulent claims, false advertising and lines like “…the way I was brought up...” etc. I can only shake my head in disbelief and amazement.

If you really want to be vent your anger on false advertising get into Hi-Fi and start looking at what cable manufacturer’s claim and charge for wire, then you will know the real meaning of those terms above.

I’ll say it again, ours is a hobby based on purchasing counterfeit goods. We know what we are doing and we should be smart enough to understand the risks and the items we receive may not be exactly what we where told they would be. To bang on about ETA movements and Swiss etc. when the watch we buy is a false hood in its own right is beyond my understanding.

Andrew and Josh, have for a long time now, provided a Wall Mart shopping experience with really great back up considering the legality of the product that is really amazing IMHO. Short of making them fall on their proverbial swords as a way of an apology I can’t see what else there is to be gained in beating them to depth....oh yes, I forgot, honest advertising… This really is starting to look like a witch hunt.

Neil has the right idea, all the advertising should be just a picture, no other description, you can see the watch the logo and as long as it looks the same as the photo and ticks when you get it then nobody will be ‘mislead’ or unhappy…

Having put my foot in my mouth, I'll shut up now.

[V]

Consider the hunt for the best replica like the seach for the best loan...

They stick a nice 2,1% fixed APR with 25points font and underneath they have a nice small star with 8 points font With *TERMS AND CONDITIONS APPLY.

If you go to the bank and expect and to have the 2,1 % in every year and in every case you are gullible. Then again you have to search well to see the conditions and find out that... OOOOPS.. 2,1% is only for the first year.. the other 35 years of the loan you will have to pay 9,4% or whatever..

The bank has the 2,1% to attract you but you don't take the loan without asking do you? And I don't think you call the bank a liar... or misleading advertisment

I am asking though EXACTLLY what Chronus said which for me is the best reply to the topic...:

WHY BUY SOMETHING WITHOUT ASKING AND COMFIRMING FIRST ALL THE DETAILS?

And having in mind that Josh and Andrew are not www.replicascammers.com to lie to you, you will know exactlly what you will get.

A friend of mine once said to me that in every transaction involved money, he didn't trusted even his own mother and asked every little detail whatever the case

[V]

I want to see a reply mail from Josh or Trusty to a buyer who asked for the B&R telling him that the watch has ETA SWISS 2892 movement inside... and I will never buy from them again.

[jonthebhoy]

I want to see a reply mail from Josh or Trusty to a buyer who asked for the B&R telling him that the watch has ETA SWISS 2892 movement inside... and I will never buy from them again.

Just playing devil's advocate here but even if one or more existed, how likely is it that your request would be entertained?

[V]

Just playing devil's advocate here but even if one or more existed, how likely is it that your request would be entertained?

Well I expect from at least one [censored] off buyer that got this watch from them and asked details about it and they mislead him, to present it here...

[jonthebhoy]

Well I expect from at least one [censored] off buyer that got this watch from them and asked details about it and they mislead him, to present it here...

Sorry kostas......cross purposes. I thought you were referring to J & A admitting to such emails, however, the existence of [censored] off buyers and misrepresentations are not in dispute......they exist.

[Pugwash]

Thus we decide to use the chinese clone of the 2892... Some members pointed out that the 2892 we used does not resemble the 2892 they know... The seagull 2892.... Now the seagull 2892 is thicker than the swiss 2892...... We disregard that cos we placed the thickness of the watch ahead of the movt looks.. Thus we went for this non seagull movt which the "experts" here are no familar with ... It is also a 2892 clone. 28800bph .... Though it looks different, ....it is the same thickness as the genuine 2892 which will allow us to maintain the correct watch size as the genuine.. In China.,. this is known as a 2892 clone as well... Along with 4 other factories who produces 2892 clone movements... Seagull is not the one and only.

Clone? Clone?

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

It's not a clone. It has nothing to do with a 2892. You chose the name "ETA 2892" for the movement. Until you posted it was an ETA 2892, nobody had ever referred to that movement by that name.

[V]

Sorry kostas......cross purposes. I thought you were referring to J & A admitting to such emails, however, the existence of [censored] off buyers and misrepresentations are not in dispute......they exist.

Well I have to see the mails with the exact misrepresented words to believe it

[Pugwash]

Well I have to see the mails with the exact misrepresented words to believe it

Rather than trust the forum's admin team?

If the admin team reckon there is some ambiguity, and they can be assumed to know how to adequately read as much between the lines as they deem acceptable, then it's good enough for me.

Contrary to common belief, I have no great agenda here (apart from one I set out to do when I first joined the forums and that was to increase the average quality of photography across the replica forums, but that's got nothing to do with this) and would love for this all to have been a mistake or a tyop. I don't think I'll have that pleasure somehow.

[V]

Rather than trust the forum's admin team?

If the admin team reckon there is some ambiguity, and they can be assumed to know how to adequately read as much between the lines as they deem acceptable, then it's good enough for me.

Well to be honest as much as i respect the admin team unfortunately I don't believe anything unless I see it with my own eyes...

[Watchmeister]

Actually the dealers responded in an intelligent manner. There was no upside for them in getting into a pissing match with forum members. No one ever changes their opinion here anyhow. They waited for the loop to slow down and then posted a reponse. Take it for what it is worth. You can draw your own opinions.

I thought it was funny when their response was set up as a separate loop. Why would they respond to this one. Everyone has to make up their own minds as to how they feel. I just ordered from Josh. Why? Because I do ask questions, he always has promptly reponded to problems and on a recent occasion when I got something I was disappointed with he allowed me to exchange the item. Then again he knows I will continue to be a customer. Of course, I didn't wear it for a while and nor do I assert that it came broken when it obviously didn't. You want to protect the NOOBS. Don't forget they or other similarly ridiculous members have scared off at least one trusted dealer. You now have to come to him. He is not posting around here anymore.

I am sorry for those people who thought they were buying one thing and got another. If you ask questions and are blatantly lied to that is unacceptable. That has never been the case with me with any dealer. And I know. All my better reps go to Rob for either relume or service. And by the way, my FM 2892 conquistador is 100% ETA.

I would be remiss however if I didn't say thanks to Neil and Jay for standing up in the prior thread. I will try and buy more from them. Of course, this does not bode well for my pocketbook.

[olga]

Consider the hunt for the best replica like the seach for the best loan...

They stick a nice 2,1% fixed APR with 25points font and underneath they have a nice small star with 8 points font With *TERMS AND CONDITIONS APPLY.

If you go to the bank and expect and to have the 2,1 % in every year and in every case you are gullible. Then again you have to search well to see the conditions and find out that... OOOOPS.. 2,1% is only for the first year.. the other 35 years of the loan you will have to pay 9,4% or whatever..

The bank has the 2,1% to attract you but you don't take the loan without asking do you? And I don't think you call the bank a liar... or misleading advertisment

I am asking though EXACTLLY what Chronus said which for me is the best reply to the topic...:

WHY BUY SOMETHING WITHOUT ASKING AND COMFIRMING FIRST ALL THE DETAILS?

And having in mind that Josh and Andrew are not www.replicascammers.com to lie to you, you will know exactlly what you will get.

A friend of mine once said to me that in every transaction involved money, he didn't trusted even his own mother and asked every little detail whatever the case

An interesting point V, but you are forgetting one important point. While many may think that the bank that offers this type of loan may be deceptively advertising. There is one important difference. Though it may be small and tucked away somewhere out of the way in the ad, the terms are there for you to read if you wish to be careful. Automobile dealers in the US have used similar tactics for years, but have sometimes crossed the line and been called out and forced to honor deals which caused them to lose money. In your example, if this same bank failed to put that tiny type in their ads they would find themselves in the losing end of a court battle and suddenly have to supply 30 year loans at 2.1% for the full 30 years.

[mrnixon]

I have no experience from the mentioned dealers, but from my general point of view an ETA is exactly an ETA, ie an movement manufactured by the company with that name, which has been sold by ETA, quality controlled by ETA etc.

Imagine if you go and buy a Zegna suit. After two days the sleve falls off and you go back and ask what is wrong, and the shop assistant says, "Well, it is a chinese Zegna. It has actually noting to do with what you associate with Zegna".

I am surprised of the understanding some buyers are showing to this issue claiming that it is the nature of the business and so on. Well, even if the watches are fake, the money sent are definitely real.

In general I think this thead has been very informative. At least for me as a beginner.

[Watchmeister]

That small print in the bank loan or auto ad only came about after millions of dollars of lawsuits and years of getting legislation passed. There ain't no small print in many countries. Don't hold your breath on black market goods.

In point of fact this loop has served its purpose by pointing out real issues in advertising. Do what you will with the facts.

[V]

An interesting point V, but you are forgetting one important point. While many may think that the bank that offers this type of loan may be deceptively advertising. There is one important difference. Though it may be small and tucked away somewhere out of the way in the ad, the terms are there for you to read if you wish to be careful. Automobile dealers in the US have used similar tactics for years, but have sometimes crossed the line and been called out and forced to honor deals which caused them to lose money. In your example, if this same bank failed to put that tiny type in their ads they would find themselves in the losing end of a court battle and suddenly have to supply 30 year loans at 2.1% for the full 30 years.

Agree... but the descriptions in the reps are a new phenomenon and are mainly for advertising the merchandise. I thought that you can only be sure about the exact details in the communication with the dealer.

That's why I said that if josh and trusty have replied to an enquiring email that the watch has ETA SWISS 2892 they must get him this movement or give a refund.

+ kruzers reply above...

[Watchmeister]

Agree with V.

[V]

Plus I want to see JUST ONE mail from the 'experienced' members who asked very normally Joshua (as i would do if i was interested for the B&R) :

'Hey Josh, how come you can supply a watch with a genuine ETA 2893 for 300$ ??? '

[Watchmeister]

[hiker01]

good point.

I Agree and I second that......

[mrnixon]

I am sorry for those people who thought they were buying one thing and got another. If you ask questions and are blatantly lied to that is unacceptable. That has never been the case with me with any dealer. And I know. All my better reps go to Rob for either relume or service. And by the way, my FM 2892 conquistador is 100% ETA.

Would be interesting to see that logic applied to any other type of merchandise. Try for example the next time you go food shoping. Imagince the scene:

You come the shop assistant with a box of milk in youir hand and ask him "Hello, I found this box on which it says Milk. I just wanted to make sure, does it contain Milk, or is there a risk that it contains orange juice?" The guy responds "It contains Milk of course" Looking happily suprised you continue "It says 1 liter on the box. Is there any risk that it contains 30 milliliter instead?" And so the conversatoin would continue for every item.

[TJGladeRaider]

Dear members,

The bell and ross is a project commissioned by the 2 of us.. We have the genuine as sample to achive the same exact dimension which is our main objective...

The movt in the genuine is Swiss 2892-2.. To put this movt in the watch will make the watch cost a lot more and also to order Swiss 2892-2...... requires a min quantity of at least 200 movts...., cash up front and delivery 6 months later..

Thus we decide to use the chinese clone of the 2892... Some members pointed out that the 2892 we used does not resemble the 2892 they know... The seagull 2892....

In the description, It is not our intention to misled.. We did not include the word "swiss" in our description.. We have since change the description as requested by the forum admin. In anycase.. We have been consistent in our dealings with all our customers.. We always tell them it is a Asian copy.. We never tell anyone that this is a Swiss movt.

As for superlume... as far as I know, there is no measure for luminosity....How super is super ?

For those who bought and is seeking clarifications ..please email us if you have any queries. We thank you for your support.

Thanks

Sincere Regards

Andrew and Joshua

Hi Andrew, Josh -- I am gratified to see that you have responded to the concerns of the members.

As you both well know, I have bought a lot of watches from both of you, and I have never hesitated to say that I like both of you personally, and I like the way you do business. To see either of you accused of dishonesty bothers me; I know from experience that you try very hard to keep your customers satisfied.

I also know, from personal experience, that Joshua has, on occasion, "pushed" certain watches to me, personally recommending them as being exceptionally nice. Several times I have bought watches based solely upon his recommendation, and each time I have found that they were all that he represented them to be. There have also been occasions where he suggested that I reconsider buying certain watches as he did not feel I would be satisifed with their quality.

I have never had any transaction with either of you that I was dissatisfied with in any way - not even a little bit.

Having said that, I would also say that there are "yes or no" words that have specific meaning - like "pregnant" for example. One cannot be "sort of pregnant," or "a little bit pregnant," either they are pregnant or they are not.

Words like sapphire, Swiss and ETA may not quite fall into that sort of absolute category, but most people think they do, especially those who actually buy watches, rather than just talk about them. I say that because I believe that the highest posting members on these boards rarely buy watches, and I believe that most of your sales are to those who talk the least. To me, that is all the more reason for you to be selective in how you describe your products.

I hope all is well with you and yours.

Bill

[olga]

That small print in the bank loan or auto ad only came about after millions of dollars of lawsuits and years of getting legislation passed. There ain't no small print in many countries. Don't hold your breath on black market goods.

In point of fact this loop has served its purpose by pointing out real issues in advertising. Do what you will with the facts.

True, those lawsuits were the remedy available to US consumers, just as this discussion is the remedy for this. Ultimately the discussion itself should be good for all. It doesn't have to be ugly, but rather a rational debate from many points of view.