Andrew & Josh's Response To The Little White Lies Thread...

[trustywatchguy]

Dear members,

The bell and ross is a project commissioned by the 2 of us.. We have the genuine as sample to achive the same exact dimension which is our main objective...

The movt in the genuine is Swiss 2892-2.. To put this movt in the watch will make the watch cost a lot more and also to order Swiss 2892-2...... requires a min quantity of at least 200 movts...., cash up front and delivery 6 months later..

Thus we decide to use the chinese clone of the 2892... Some members pointed out that the 2892 we used does not resemble the 2892 they know... The seagull 2892.... Now the seagull 2892 is thicker than the swiss 2892...... We disregard that cos we placed the thickness of the watch ahead of the movt looks.. Thus we went for this non seagull movt which the "experts" here are no familar with ... It is also a 2892 clone. 28800bph .... Though it looks different, ....it is the same thickness as the genuine 2892 which will allow us to maintain the correct watch size as the genuine.. In China.,. this is known as a 2892 clone as well... Along with 4 other factories who produces 2892 clone movements... Seagull is not the one and only.

Another example is the currently favoured New Asia 7750 movt with 28800bph.. compared that to the genuine 7750 .. does it looks like the 7750 ? It doesn;t.... So is this 2892 clone movt.

In the description, It is not our intention to misled.. We did not include the word "swiss" in our description.. We have since change the description as requested by the forum admin. In anycase.. We have been consistent in our dealings with all our customers.. We always tell them it is a Asian copy.. We never tell anyone that this is a Swiss movt.

As for superlume... as far as I know, there is no measure for luminosity....How super is super ? how not super is consider a lie ? .Those who own this watch will know that this watch has far better lume than a lot of other factory producing dials.. I called it now superb lume ... If some of you want to compared to those that you have paid USD 80/- bucks to someone to light it up like a torch... Then this is definitely not super...

For those who bought and is seeking clarifications ..please email us if you have any queries. We thank you for your support.

Thanks

Sincere Regards

Andrew and Joshua

[TwoTone]

Andrew originally posted this in the original "White Lies" Thread...

It was moved because it deserves it own Thread...

The Admin Team of RWG fully expects this Thread to remain civil...

TT

[Craytonic]

I always considered "ETA movement" and "superlume" to be nouns not adjectives.

This means if I said a watch had "superlume" it would have this substance applied to it (noun). Not that the watch had "SUPER LUME !!!!!!!!!!!!!" (adjective).

Likewise, I thought ETA had something to do with this company (noun). Not an adjective.

This would make an interesting academic study. "Converting nouns into adjectives for fun and profit!"

edited for typo.

[Goochenbrau]

I always considered "ETA movement" and "superlume" to be nouns not adjectives.

This means if I said a watch had "superlume" it would have this substance applied to it (noun). Not that the watch had "SUPER LUME !!!!!!!!!!!!!" (adjective).

Likewise, I thought ETA had something to do with this company (noun). Not an adjective.

This would make an interesting academic study. "Converting nouns into adjectives for fun and profit!"

edited for typo.

Like when Republican speechwriters use "Democrat Congress" instead of proper "Democratic Congress."(using a noun when there should be a adjective) They use "Democrat" instead of "Democratic" because focus groups associate "Democratic" with voting, nationalism, democracy, etc.

[flavor flav]

i for one always read between the lines and never felt misled by anything from andrew or joshua. they are very honest people and a great asset to our community. they always deliver fast and make right any issues you have without question. if you are confused by anything just ask them a question. they will treat you as a friend and are 100% trustworthy.

[Chronus]

i for one always read between the lines and never felt misled by anything from andrew or joshua.

Same here - ALWAYS ask questions before a purchase and clarify everything - movement, crystal, etc. Keep copies of those emails in case it is not as described.

The point of the original thread was not to protect experienced people here, but the newbies who wouldn't know the difference between Asian / Swiss ETA - they may think it is just the location of manufacture rather than a low quality cheap rip-off that may clap out in a month.

[Bignasty]

Andrew,

I would just like to say that you've always taken care of me through any issues I've ever had arise. Just wanted to show my support for you personally. I appreciate very much the service and products that you offer here on the forums. I know that Eddie has basically quit selling on the forums because of the numerous and I'm sure sometimes ridiculous claims that members here and at the other forums have made.

I also agree with Chronus on this simple little rule. Before your purchase ask questions. If in doubt, ask more questions. Without our dealers we would have no reason to have a forum, well unless of course we purchased our watches from Chinatown or Replica Scam sites.

Cheers!

[solicitor]

I was one of the few who actually purchased the BR-092 watch from Andrew thinking it was a genuine Swiss ETA movement. It never occurred to me that something called an "ETA" movement would be anything but a Swiss-made movement. Yeah, I guess I was naive. Nevertheless, I do feel I was misled. If the term "Asian" had preceded it, or "clone" had followed it, I would have thought twice about buying the watch. The superlume, or lack thereof, is also a concern, but less so for me.

I must say, however, that thus far the watch has performed as well as, if not better than, all my other reps. We'll see how long that lasts.

So, because I have otherwise had excellent service and communication from Andrew, I will continue to buy watches from him. I simply won't take anything for granted any longer when it comes to his descriptions....Caveat emptor!!

[TwoTone]

9 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)

9 Members: TwoTone, indenial, everlast, davethecat, robertk, Jon Up North, cornerstone, Jos Nana, trustywatchguy

Trusty, Josh, it's good to see you reading the Thread!

I mean that...

Now, it's your Topic, so participate in it, these our your customers...

TwoTone

[Craytonic]

I am a little confused why a consumer should have to ask if "ETA" means "ETA"? Could it mean quartz? Why not just describe it as a copy to begin with.

I also don't understand why a purchaser should ask if "sapphire" means "sapphire" and not glass or plexiglass?

Why is "superlume" being treated as an adjective and not a verb?

This is somewhat of a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line between when someone should ask questions and when you can trust the description. When does it become a scam?

Why not just call a spade a spade? Why call a diamond a club? I believe the words we use to describe our watches have meanings. Those meanings are being lost.

Keep in mind those of us posting don't have to worry, we are informed purchasers. It is the uninformed masses that will be mislead.

You need to ask why the description does not say "ETA copy" when that is in fact what it is. This is one rhetorical question I will answer - you call an ETA copy an "Asian ETA" because you believe you will sell more of them that way. This means a purchaser is being intentionally mislead so the seller can have a higher profit.

I really fail to see how one can state "just as questions' when it would be easy to create descriptions that require no questions. Do I have to question the responses to the questions? When does it end, and why let it begin?

Why should I have to ask if you mean what you say? You should just say what you mean!

I have done some good transactions with Josh, so this is just a little surprising to me.

[flavor flav]

You need to ask why the description does not say "ETA copy" when that is in fact what it is. This is one rhetorical question I will answer - you call an ETA copy an "Asian ETA" because you believe you will sell more of them that way. This means a purchaser is being intentionally mislead so the seller can have a higher profit.

I really fail to see how one can state "just ask questions' when it would be easy to create descriptions that require no questions. Do I have to question the responses to the questions? When does it end, and why let it begin?

Why should I have to ask if you mean what you say? You should just say what you mean!

I have done some good transactions with Josh, so this is just a little surprising to me.

good point.

[hambone]

Most of the rep watches I have purchased have been from Andrew and Joshua. They are both consumate professionals and through all of my transactions with both of them, there have been minor bumps here and there, but they have always answered any inquiry sometimes within minutes, never later than a couple of hours. If there is a problem which is rare, it is fixed. As far as the white lies go, the definition of that phrase 'white lie' is a fabrication made so as not to hurt the feelings of another, or to not offend. I do not believe either of these guys has ever set out to be deceitful in any way, and if someone has an issue about a description then just ask them about it and a straight answer will be forthcoming.

Thank you Andrew and Joshua, your watches have made my life a little better, and that is a fact.

[KB]

I do believe that is a very well thought out post Cray and yes it does warrant a response.

Ken

[Craytonic]

Most of the rep watches I have purchased have been from Andrew and Joshua. They are both consumate professionals and through all of my transactions with both of them, there have been minor bumps here and there, but they have always answered any inquiry sometimes within minutes, never later than a couple of hours. If there is a problem which is rare, it is fixed. As far as the white lies go, the definition of that phrase 'white lie' is a fabrication made so as not to hurt the feelings of another, or to not offend. I do not believe either of these guys has ever set out to be deceitful in any way, and if someone has an issue about a description then just ask them about it and a straight answer will be forthcoming.

Thank you Andrew and Joshua, your watches have made my life a little better, and that is a fact.

Is labeling an ETA copy an "ETA" a white lie? I am not so sure. If you ordered a watch labled as an "ETA" movement and received a movement that was in fact not ETA at all, but was an ETA copy, would you be "offended"? I think I would.

I do not believe either of these guys has ever set out to be deceitful in any way

If this is true, why call it an "Asian ETA" or just an "ETA" instead of calling it an "ETA copy"? I can think of only one reason - the belief that this labeling will lead to more sales because consumers will think they are purchasing an ETA movement when in fact they are not - they are purchasing a copy of an ETA movement (would you like to try and purchase a real rolex and get a copy of one instead?). The definition of deception is "providing intentionally misleading information to others." Is it intentionally misleading to label a watch as ETA when it is not ETA at all? Why not just be up front and state what it is to begin with?

Josh & Andrew - I like you guys and I like your stuff, I am not trying to attack or vilify (sp?) you. I am just a little concerned about your choices in advertising as of late. I honestly believe you will come out better with more sales and less returns if you are 100% upfront about every aspect of the watch in your description. Your greatest asset as a seller is your reputation - there is no reason to tarnish it over terms like "Asian ETA" and using "superlume" as an adjective & not a verb.

[hambone]

Is labeling an ETA copy an "ETA" a white lie? I am not so sure. If you ordered a watch labled as an "ETA" movement and received a movement that was in fact not ETA at all, but was an ETA copy, would you be "offended"? I think I would.

If this is true, why call it an "Asian ETA" or just an "ETA" instead of calling it an "ETA copy"? I can think of only one reason - the belief that this labeling will lead to more sales because consumers will think they are purchasing an ETA movement when in fact they are not - they are purchasing a copy of an ETA movement (would you like to try and purchase a real rolex and get a copy of one instead?). The definition of deception is "providing intentionally misleading information to others." Is it intentionally misleading to label a watch as ETA when it is not ETA at all? Why not just be up front and state what it is to begin with?

Josh & Andrew - I like you guys and I like your stuff, I am not trying to attack or vilify (sp?) you. I am just a little concerned about your choices in advertising as of late. I honestly believe you will come out better with more sales and less returns if you are 100% upfront about every aspect of the watch in your description. Your greatest asset as a seller is your reputation - there is no reason to tarnish it over terms like "Asian ETA" and using "superlume" as an adjective & not a verb.

I stand by what I said and will not get dragged into another endless debate over semantics.

[Craytonic]

Unfortunately, the entire issue is semantics.

Do "ETA," "Superlume," and "Sapphire" have a set meaning? Or, is their meaning that which the dealer gives them arbitrarily based on their own financial desires? I believe it is the former, not the latter. I would like to see my questions above answered though.

[deltatahoe]

i think everyone would agree that it would be great if there was an accepted, standardized name and/or description for every rep, movement, crystal type, etc. however, part of the thing that makes collecting reps interesting (at least to me) is the process....doing the research and understanding what you are getting for your dollars.

i avoided the 'little white lies' thread for a while, as it just left a bad taste in my mouth. are some (or even most) of the points made in the thread valid? absolutely. but the whole spirit of the discussion was so negative that i just couldn't get behind it. more than anything, i feel like we are getting a little spoiled as buyers of replica watches.

let's take the b&r for example. getting a 1:1 cosmetic copy of the genuine (regardless of the movement type) for any watch is a feat that some of us would have been drooling over a year or so ago. these days the rep world has gotten more and more accurate, so we are expecting a lot more out of our dealers & watches. with folks like joshua, trusty, jay & angus starting to realize that people will pay for 1:1 quality reps (eg. the bell & ross, RT dream watch forum, big bang & breitling chronomat evolution, respectively), our standards and expectations are continually rising.

being frustrated with crystals being advertised as synthetic sapphire only to find out that they are actually mineral crystal is understandable. but let's give the dealers some credit -- these instances are few and far between. how many times have you asked questions about various reps, only to have the dealers steer you clear of the problematic or less than impressive reps? our dealers are helping us own watches in quantities and qualities that would mean bigtime dollars if we were shopping at our local AD. so for me, i'd like to thank joshua, trusty and all of the trusted dealers here for supplying some truly exciting replicas to this community.

the members of this board are typically repeat buyers that would like to think we are an important part of the dealers' overall business. i think so long as the dealers continue to have access to and develop quality products, we will continue to be their biggest fans. in the end, i think that it is in everyone's best interest that the dealers here communicate clearly and represent their products in the most accurate way possible -- this will enable the dealers to continue to develop and supply great reps (not to mention have a life outside of the boards) instead of answering our unending questions about crystals, movements, luminous qualities, etc.

enough said -- it is time to go to bed. sorry for the long post.

deltatahoe

[hambone]

i think everyone would agree that it would be great if there was an accepted, standardized name and/or description for every rep, movement, crystal type, etc. however, part of the thing that makes collecting reps interesting (at least to me) is the process....doing the research and understanding what you are getting for your dollars.

i avoided the 'little white lies' thread for a while, as it just left a bad taste in my mouth. are some (or even most) of the points made in the thread valid? absolutely. but the whole spirit of the discussion was so negative that i just couldn't get behind it. more than anything, i feel like we are getting a little spoiled as buyers of replica watches.

let's take the b&r for example. getting a 1:1 cosmetic copy of the genuine (regardless of the movement type) for any watch is a feat that some of us would have been drooling over a year or so ago. these days the rep world has gotten more and more accurate, so we are expecting a lot more out of our dealers & watches. with folks like joshua, trusty, jay & angus starting to realize that people will pay for 1:1 quality reps (eg. the bell & ross, RT dream watch forum, big bang & breitling chronomat evolution, respectively), our standards and expectations are continually rising.

being frustrated with crystals being advertised as synthetic sapphire only to find out that they are actually mineral crystal is understandable. but let's give the dealers some credit -- these instances are few and far between. how many times have you asked questions about various reps, only to have the dealers steer you clear of the problematic or less than impressive reps? our dealers are helping us own watches in quantities and qualities that would mean bigtime dollars if we were shopping at our local AD. so for me, i'd like to thank joshua, trusty and all of the trusted dealers here for supplying some truly exciting replicas to this community.

the members of this board are typically repeat buyers that would like to think we are an important part of the dealers' overall business. i think so long as the dealers continue to have access to and develop quality products, we will continue to be their biggest fans. in the end, i think that it is in everyone's best interest that the dealers here communicate clearly and represent their products in the most accurate way possible -- this will enable the dealers to continue to develop and supply great reps (not to mention have a life outside of the boards) instead of answering our unending questions about crystals, movements, luminous qualities, etc.

enough said -- it is time to go to bed. sorry for the long post.

deltatahoe

Well stated Brother. I concur

[vmena]

I would suggest not turning this thread into a trail to decide if these dealers are honest or not. No discussion at all about it because their honesty is far proved.

Said that, they, as every dealer, must be clear in descriptions. And they're not. My a matter of "lost in translation" or whatever excuse you'd want to use. But when I ask for Coca-Cola, I'm not asking for Pepsi. And I don't see any of you asking the barman if the Coke your asking for is really coke or Pepsi in an empty coke bottle.

Messages to dealers must be in the same direction: please, use the proper wording, so any of us, no mater our expertise, could understand what we are buying. Isn't it easy?

[Pugwash]

Andrew, Josh,

You would not lose sales if you used the right terms, you know. I know you have good products and you can sell them on their own merits.

I had a much longer response but it didn't seem too supportive, so I deleted it and am just going to state that Craytonic covered most if it.

Oh yeah, using trademarks as adjectives is weaseling. Stop it. You know it's wrong and you know you're trying to fool someone. Ah, damn, I had to be negative at the end. Sorry.

[crystalcranium]

Dear members,

The bell and ross is a project commissioned by the 2 of us.. We have the genuine as sample to achive the same exact dimension which is our main objective...

The movt in the genuine is Swiss 2892-2.. To put this movt in the watch will make the watch cost a lot more and also to order Swiss 2892-2...... requires a min quantity of at least 200 movts...., cash up front and delivery 6 months later..

Thus we decide to use the chinese clone of the 2892... Some members pointed out that the 2892 we used does not resemble the 2892 they know... The seagull 2892.... Now the seagull 2892 is thicker than the swiss 2892...... We disregard that cos we placed the thickness of the watch ahead of the movt looks.. Thus we went for this non seagull movt which the "experts" here are no familar with ... It is also a 2892 clone. 28800bph .... Though it looks different, ....it is the same thickness as the genuine 2892 which will allow us to maintain the correct watch size as the genuine.. In China.,. this is known as a 2892 clone as well... Along with 4 other factories who produces 2892 clone movements... Seagull is not the one and only.

Another example is the currently favoured New Asia 7750 movt with 28800bph.. compared that to the genuine 7750 .. does it looks like the 7750 ? It doesn;t.... So is this 2892 clone movt.

In the description, It is not our intention to misled.. We did not include the word "swiss" in our description.. We have since change the description as requested by the forum admin. In anycase.. We have been consistent in our dealings with all our customers.. We always tell them it is a Asian copy.. We never tell anyone that this is a Swiss movt.

As for superlume... as far as I know, there is no measure for luminosity....How super is super ? how not super is consider a lie ? .Those who own this watch will know that this watch has far better lume than a lot of other factory producing dials.. I called it now superb lume ... If some of you want to compared to those that you have paid USD 80/- bucks to someone to light it up like a torch... Then this is definitely not super...

For those who bought and is seeking clarifications ..please email us if you have any queries. We thank you for your support.

Thanks

Sincere Regards

Andrew and Joshua

On the whole, I'm happy and a bit surprised we heard anything. I thought, as the original thread made its' way to page 2 that these guys would wait out the storm and continue business as usual. There's some 'wormyness" in the explaination (like "we said superlume...not superluminova.....ah ...gotcha...) but on the whole, it's a positive response. I just wish, and I know this is a pipe dream, people would own up to lies and errors of comission with an honest disclosure. I'd have NO problem with their post if they said "....As norms of advertising go in the rep business, we are proud to be leaders in being forthright and honest with the buying public. However, the realities of economic pressures and competition sometimes clouds even our judgement when choosing wording and descriptive terms for products that we are excited about selling. We agree with the majority opinion that our zeal caused us to use descriptions that were misleading......etc"

Like I said, pipe dream.

[Pugwash]

'wormyness"

Precisely. The whole thing sounds like it was reluctantly written and it's for that reason that it smells of weasel.

Am I asking too much to think we deserve better? It appears to me that the majority of posters here thought a line had been crossed and that the reply from Andrew/Josh says "Yes, and suck it up. There's more to come."

Am I honestly asking too much? If the consensus is that their response is satisfactory, I'll drop my plea. However, if, like me, you can smell a bit too much weasel and worm, then please say so. This is not the time to keep quiet for fear of rocking the boat.

[Guest TTK]

It's very simple..........it started out with a play on words......and it looks it's going to end in a play on words......!

IT SHOULD BE THIS....!

OR THIS...

BUT NEVER THIS

Still.......in the words of the old 10cc song......!

It irrigates my heart with greed

To see how you adore me

Up yours

Up mine

But up everybody's

that takes time......but we're working on it....!

Edited February 1, 2007 by TTK

[crystalcranium]

Precisely. The whole thing sounds like it was reluctantly written and it's for that reason that it smells of weasel.

Am I asking too much to think we deserve better? It appears to me that the majority of posters here thought a line had been crossed and that the reply from Andrew/Josh says "Yes, and suck it up. There's more to come."

Am I honestly asking too much? If the consensus is that their response is satisfactory, I'll drop my plea. However, if, like me, you can smell a bit too much weasel and worm, then please say so. This is not the time to keep quiet for fear of rocking the boat.

...and I never care for "We apologise....we never meant to...." Yes you did. You apologise for stepping on someone's foot in the subway, not for intentional deception....and if there was no intended deception, you have nothing to apologise for.

Like Rhett Butler said to Scarlett O'hara, "If you had it to do over again, you'd do no different. You're like the theif who's not the least bit sorry he stole but he's terribly, terribly sorry he's going to jail."

[Guest TTK]

Ahhh.....Rhett Butler.......what a man.......from the good old days when men were men....with pr**ks like potato mashers......