zetterdawg Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Exactly. I feel like this is the point that CJVCMC is missing. The issue is not whether $300 is a ridiculous price for a good rep, or what else is out there for the price. And OK, we get you have $308 to throw around, you're a big man. But I don't think any of us should be pleased to see a trend toward price fixing by the dealers. I'm not anti-Josh or anti-Andrew or anyone else. But I think it's perfectly clear that the dealers just want to get prices up and they're behind this push, it doesn't have that much to do with anything else despite all the misleading talk of "better steel" (I note a dealer commented in defending the price that unlike other reps, the SO is "really" made from 316L steel -- is that supposed to make us feel better, that they've been lying about that too?) Regardless of whether it's understandable for them to get all they can, I'm not really sure why it's unreasonable for us to voice our displeasure at collusory markups. It's not a good thing. I like what you wrote. It summarizes the conversation nicely. With Eddie and River out of the hobby, are we going to a 4 party system? If the manufacturers want to limit exposure and potentially liability they may only sell to certain dealers which may result in prices going up up UP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 I think for the money this isn't a bad rep. That said I still think it's overpriced. It's the newest "hot" watch that was released before CNY. Some people have waited a long time for it. I myself don't like it very much, but can appreciate the attention to detail that went into creating it. I kind of relate it to certain rock bands reuniting, (The Police example). Some people will pay hundreds "just to be there", "have to have it now". I would almost guarantee that in a month or so most dealers will have this as a "monthly special", providing factores didn't "over rep it". Then again I could be talking out of my ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovepanerai Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 I like what you wrote. It summarizes the conversation nicely. With Eddie and River out of the hobby, are we going to a 4 party system? If the manufacturers want to limit exposure and potentially liability they may only sell to certain dealers which may result in prices going up up UP. Funny that you mention Eddie in this context - he was the master of over-hyping and overpricing the new hot watches I always paid more when I wanted to have the watch right away and I knew what I was doing. I am sure the same thing will happen here: once the "must have it now" crowd is saturated the prices will go down, but I am willing to bet that you won't see that quality for under $200 or even close to that mark anytime soon. Furthermore I believe that the dealers will not be able to do any sort of price fixing in particular once the makers start getting dissatisfied with the run rates. If we believe that the 4 dealers mentioned here are the makers only channel we are sadly mistaken... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJVCMC Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 I like what you wrote. It summarizes the conversation nicely. With Eddie and River out of the hobby, are we going to a 4 party system? If the manufacturers want to limit exposure and potentially liability they may only sell to certain dealers which may result in prices going up up UP. Ok...I am convinced somewhat at what you guys are saying. there has got to be, though, a balance where we give and also buck up. It is good to recognise that there is a reason why Eddie and River and even neil seem to be gone or not around much. They are the guys that in the past sold watches in high 3's and 4's plus. When people like Josh came around, they became sort of the walmart to us. We could now buy great product for good prices. The danger is that there are several "walmarts" now and the little shops are getting hammered and bailing out. If these new guys can make profit by volume ....great...but if they cant then they will collapse and the LONG HAUL LITTLE GUYS like river and eddie will be gone. My concern is that the new guys, "the Walmarts", have been in business for a relatively short time. this is why you got to let them make a decent profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 My concern is that the new guys, "the Walmarts", have been in business for a relatively short time. this is why you got to let them make a decent profit. Er, if they're following the Wal-Mart tactic, then their intention is not to make profit in the beginning, but to get rid of the smaller competition so in the long term they can charge what they like. It's Market-shaping at its best, and the consumer never wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b16a2 Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Er, if they're following the Wal-Mart tactic, then their intention is not to make profit in the beginning, but to get rid of the smaller competition so in the long term they can charge what they like. It's Market-shaping at its best, and the consumer never wins. I think you could be right Pug. This is taken from the Panerai section; Hi ALL... Till today, most PANERAI reps with Dates arent good. Once look and someone will scream off his or her head calling it a REP. This is going to change... There is a Maker who is going to change the Panerai rep industry with the long awaited Date Font and Cyclops. NO PICTURES YET.... Soon to follow when I meet up my buddy, Joshua. There will only be a few dealers with this great stuff, namely Joshua, me and Angus and King. =) Cheers Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJVCMC Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Er, if they're following the Wal-Mart tactic, then their intention is not to make profit in the beginning, but to get rid of the smaller competition so in the long term they can charge what they like. It's Market-shaping at its best, and the consumer never wins. Actually the consumer does win. Thats why the little guy goes out of business. The problem is that the stuff gets cheaper and not better. By forcing the good guys out by cutting their profits the big guys are left standing with their lower prices and cheaper quality goods. The reason why they are big is because it is all about the money and volume. When we drive the great little guys out by shopping the volume guys ...quality will go down to keep prices low so profits can be obtained by volume selling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luisik Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 All you forget Andrew and Josh started just a few years ago competing only with prices.. that was the only way they started getting customers. Then they grew up with their customer's service fame (wich I honestly never found better than anyone's else)... some helping massive reviews (with the help of a few of their mod friends in the old forums) and the myth was created. They think now they are strong enough as to screw us, as the strong guys did when Andrew and josh started. So the story is just repeating again and again. Now Ruby, Trevor, Brand9Avenue... and some other"new" dealers are taking their same products a 40% cheaper (same as Andrew and Josh were doing a few yeas ago), and it is just a matter of time to have several good reviews of these "new" dealers to give them a Rep-God dealer status. And then, in 3-4 years more, we will start again this same threat with some other dealer name and, no worries, there will arise someone new able to give us the same products, with the same service, but a 40% cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Actually the consumer does win. [...] quality will go down to keep prices low so profits can be obtained by volume selling. Nope, sounds self-contradictory to me ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJVCMC Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Nope, sounds self-contradictory to me ... It does sound contradictory. The customer wins a cheaper product. He looses quality... and that is exactly why we are fighting the dealers today. In order to keep volume up and to deliver cheap product, quality is starting to suffer and dealers are having to compromise accurate reporting. Thus the customer who wants cheap wins and the customer who demands quality pays extra and gets it. customer wins always...if he wants cheap ..he gets cheap product... if he wants quality .....he pays for it and wins. if we start paying 350 per piece maybe we have to buy less quantity.... then the factories are trained to pump out quality. If we want to pay 200 bucks for watches..... they have to pump out more crap to hit their lick! Either way we win...more cheap watches for cheap people and more quality watches for those that command quality...cant really have both. Never will be the case unless you wait and buy your watches on the clearance rack ...and that is the key to this hobby. Buy the quality watches cheap by waiting for the newness of it to die down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luisik Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 It does sound contradictory. The customer wins a cheaper product. He looses quality... and that is exactly why we are fighting the dealers today. In order to keep volume up and to deliver cheap product, quality is starting to suffer and dealers are having to compromise accurate reporting. Thus the customer who wants cheap wins and the customer who demands quality pays extra and gets it. customer wins always...if he wants cheap ..he gets cheap product... if he wants quality .....he pays for it and wins. if we start paying 350 per piece maybe we have to buy less quantity.... then the factories are trained to pump out quality. If we want to pay 200 bucks for watches..... they have to pump out more crap to hit their lick! Either way we win...more cheap watches for cheap people and more quality watches for those that command quality...cant really have both. Never will be the case unless you wait and buy your watches on the clearance rack ...and that is the key to this hobby. Buy the quality watches cheap by waiting for the newness of it to die down. I absolutely disagree with you. All we want to have the best quality, that's why we have: - top Q Omega PO's for $160 - top Q FM Conquistador's for $170 - top Q PAM's for $200 - top Q GST's for $220 - top Q Submariners for $230 - top Q Navitimers for $250 - top Q TAG Link's for $250 - top Q Santos for $260 ... etc. Why suddenly we have to pay 100-150% more for watches with exactly the same quality as those I posted above ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchDude Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 I absolutely disagree with you. All we want to have the best quality, that's why we have: - top Q Omega PO's for $160 - top Q FM Conquistador's for $170 - top Q PAM's for $200 - top Q GST's for $220 - top Q Submariners for $230 - top Q Navitimers for $250 - top Q TAG Link's for $250 - top Q Santos for $260 ... etc. Why suddenly we have to pay 100-150% more for watches with exactly the same quality as those I posted above ? EXACT same quality? Which of those models carries a 1000m rating? Show me a PAM for $200 that is good to go out of the box, that doesn't require another $150-200 to fix a cannon pin and lume. Telll y'all what, you don't like it - don't buy it. Action speaks louder than words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 All true, but aren't you losing sight that these are only reps? I mean most people wouldn't know a good cannon pin from a bad one, let alone what a Panerai is. I look at them as reps ALWAYS. If I wanted perfect I would buy the genuine. For $200-$300 you get a real good copy, I can't understand adding another $300-$400 in mods to a rep, it still won't be real, just a better copy. No offense to modders who do this as a hobby, I think be able to successfully tinker with these things is an art. But let's try not to lose sight at what these watches are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJVCMC Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 I absolutely disagree with you. All we want to have the best quality, that's why we have: - top Q Omega PO's for $160 - top Q FM Conquistador's for $170 - top Q PAM's for $200 - top Q GST's for $220 - top Q Submariners for $230 - top Q Navitimers for $250 - top Q TAG Link's for $250 - top Q Santos for $260 ... etc. Why suddenly we have to pay 100-150% more for watches with exactly the same quality as those I posted above ? your standards are wayyyyy too low! you like the sort of ok reps. the kind of reps that make you keep buying another generation rep of the same type. if guys would pay 350 and expect quality instead of cheap there would be NOT 4 generations of watches. see in the long run you pay 3 times as much for the "ever increasing accuracy" of the watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJVCMC Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 All true, but aren't you losing sight that these are only reps? I mean most people wouldn't know a good cannon pin from a bad one, let alone what a Panerai is. I look at them as reps ALWAYS. If I wanted perfect I would buy the genuine. For $200-$300 you get a real good copy, I can't understand adding another $300-$400 in mods to a rep, it still won't be real, just a better copy. No offense to modders who do this as a hobby, I think be able to successfully tinker with these things is an art. But let's try not to lose sight at what these watches are. I dont think people understand how hard it is to rep a watch. I dont think people understand that a rep watch is a piece of art. you are not buying a watch when you buy a rep...you are buying pieces of hi tech art and the more you pay of art the better the product...its just a fact. some people want cheap watches to impress the public or to some how sniff out a women as if a watch can get a guality gal. others want growing accuracy and realize that paying 250 is not going to get the best......art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Point taken..I personally don't mind paying more if in fact better quality and attention to detail is given for that price. But lately that seems to walk a fine line in also being misled by false information. The latest Breitling's are certainly hope of what could be on the horizon. But I do see this hobby as an art and appreciation of nice things, that's why I collect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJVCMC Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Point taken..I personally don't mind paying more if in fact better quality and attention to detail is given for that price. But lately that seems to walk a fine line in also being misled by false information. The latest Breitling's are certainly hope of what could be on the horizon. But I do see this hobby as an art and appreciation of nice things, that's why I collect. Steve....great! see whats happening is the people are expecting extreme accuracy and low cost. so what do the factories do. generation 1...generation 2....generation3...until you have...ie the "ultimate" po. or the "perfect t best rolex" or the new breitling steel fish with a little something off that is going to be eclipsed by the "superior steelfish" but look...the current steel fish is really good because it costs more....so i dont see near as many generations coming out. it is better to get less watches and pay for better art...but that is just me i quess Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplehd Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 the current steel fish is really good because it costs more....so i dont see near as many generations coming out. Believe me, if there's a reason for them to come out with another generation, they will. Take the SuperOcean for example. The numbers - 6,9,12 are a bit off compared to the gen. Now, anal as we are about our watches, if they come out with a version that had the correct numbers, people will buy it. Why? Because we demand perfection out of a $200-$300 watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplehd Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) My 2 cents Edited February 15, 2007 by triplehd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetterdawg Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Is it wrong for me to say I'm not really too impressed with the 1000 ft waterproof "guarantee"? How hard is it really - it's a simple watch - screw down crown, screwed in back, thick crystal. Waterproofing isn't magic - a solid design + silicon grease. When I get a new rep I do the same thing they do - grease and test. There is no magical machine, multi-hour process, or ultra-expensive material they use. The materials are cheap, and labour is cheap in china. If they are saying the design is the key, even that's not going to be super-expensive and it's all amortized over 100's of watches they sell anyway. 1000 ft water resistence is new to the rep world, but it doesn't really impress me that much. Take this trend - watches exclusive to only certain dealers to its logical end - the Gen market. Gen's are marked up 1000's of percent because there is only one dealer, so they can charge what they want. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. So along comes the rep market. Close enough and the price feels right so we buy them. I think we've been too focused on the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" side of the argument. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWR Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Another dealer is going to get the steelfish. One that has certainly proven that they're able to deliver lower prices and honesty... I've said too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CY0811 Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 (edited) ummmm no you havent....what dealer....its not like a measure of national security. Edited February 16, 2007 by CY0811 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luisik Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 EXACT same quality? Which of those models carries a 1000m rating? Show me a PAM for $200 that is good to go out of the box, that doesn't require another $150-200 to fix a cannon pin and lume. Telll y'all what, you don't like it - don't buy it. Action speaks louder than words. Show me please one of those new Superocean, Big Bang, Chronomat Evolution or Bell&Ross that are being asked double price by the god-dealers, and that don't need several modifications to be as genuines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Another dealer is going to get the steelfish. One that has certainly proven that they're able to deliver lower prices and honesty... I've said too much. Hmmm... I seem to know this dealer too... And @CJVCMC, over where I live, i CAN get a Sandoz c/w eta movt for SGD300, not USD300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 ...Oh, and may I add that Jay has consistently over the past 2-3 years, offered watches close to Paul's prices... with a great reputation and service to boot! :thumbsupsmileyanim: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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