Fighting words

[Bazz]

Not only is it ou Consitutional right to bear arms, but that very right is what keeps us safe.

[Seadweller4000]

Americans are one of the very few nations accepting 11.000 dead killed by handguns every year.

[Guest TTK]

Not only is it ou Consitutional right to bear arms, but that very right is what keeps us safe.

Safe from who......?

" If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns. "

Yeah...but they won't be outlaws brandishing your stolen LEGAL guns......and the authorities only need to worry about the bad guys...NOT the 'good' guys....who become 'bad' guys....despite psych evaluations....or the failure of authorities to recognise the trouble within.....!

A car is a VERY effective killing tool.

No...a car is a VERY effective means of transportation......the fact that humans turn it into a KILLING tool is a different matter.....you CANNOT deviate a gun from it's original purpose....to KILL.......I'd welcome the opportunity to jump from the path of a speeding car at 60MPH.....more than a 9mm bullet travelling at over 800 MPH.

here's an indication of how INNEFECTIVE a car is as a killing tool......remember this incident...!

Omeed Aziz Popal, 29, was arrested for a San Francisco-area hit-and-run spree that killed one and injured 14 others....!

This evening, it was unclear exactly how many people had been injured, and in what order the incidents occurred. The police reported the following injuries:

-- Two people, one of them a child, were seriously injured on the 3500 block of California Street in Laurel Heights.

-- Three people were hit at California and Fillmore streets. Witnesses said they included a man with a broken hip and a woman with a gashed head.

-- Two people were seriously hurt at Bush and Pierce streets.

-- One person was seriously injured at Bush and Buchanan streets.

-- One person suffered minor injuries in an incident at 1850 Fillmore St.

-- Two other people suffered minor injuries when they were hit at Pine at Divisadero streets.

-- Two people were hit and suffered minor injuries at Divisadero and Bush streets.

The rate of deaths per auto accident is higher than that of shootings.

ACCIDENT being the operative word here....not MASS MURDER.......we can forgive someone who is responsible for a devastating accident.......you can't forgive someone for committing MASS MURDER....!

Like on poster said... it's not the gun that killed those people. Gun's don't kill people... people kill people.

You're right ......how do I know.......I passed a guy on a street corner today......he was holding out his hand...finger extended ...pointing at people and shouting.."bang bang'....you're dead......guess what...... nobody fell down dead.....didn't matter how many times he pulled his trigger....guess what.......he was as surprised as hell when I went up to him.....and said....'RUMBLE ...RUMBLE....I'm a tank....and you're squashed..."......AND it's MY constitutional RIGHT to be a tank.....if we're gonna have TOYS......I want a better TOY than a dinky likkle ASSAULT rifle....!

Tell you what Millwright......go lie down in a dark room......isolate yourself from any extraneous noises.....and concentrate hard on how much of an idiot you've shown yourself to be in public......and then come back to the forum when you have something to say that makes some sort of sense......!

Edited April 19, 2007 by TTK

[dieselpower]

I think the perception of guns as weapons needs to be changed.

Classic.

[narikaa]

G'mornin from the UK

Pushin 6 pages so far

Waaaaay too much waffle

Can someone give me the disco version..........

Any Guns banned while I slept?

Any radical viewpoints changed either?

Or is this just a huge waste of time & bandwidth

.

Edited April 19, 2007 by narikaa

[Guest TTK]

Here's the cliff notes...!

1. You're getting old....!

2. You're wasting bandwidth...!

3. You're causing me to waste bandwidth....!

4. Don't f'get mah 4gb CF Card....when you come out....!

5. Sootee.....has kept some water back for you for Songkran......!

Edited April 19, 2007 by TTK

[narikaa]

I can see your lip curling out as you type

.

[Guest TTK]

You can see....did you get new glasses......does it mean we might see some decent watches for sale......now that you can make out the dial.....

[Pugwash]

" If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns. "

This is of course total and utter [censored]. Only outlaws ... and law-enforcement officers, security personnel, pest controllers and the military will have guns. You can spot who the criminals are and shoot them dead as they'll be the ones carrying guns.

[eddhead]

Not ALL bad, but the bad outweighs the good, 100:1. Racial issues have gone in the wrong direction. Reverse discrimination is bad. I don't see "diversity" itself as a worthy goal. A lot of people hired to fill racial quotas are downright unqualified and incompetent, in my experience. And what message does that send to youths of any color?

racial issues have gone in the wrong direction since the 60's? maybe for whites, but in general this is just not true for society as a whole. There is a MUCH greater level of racial tolerence and harmony in this country now than there ever has been before. When I was growing up, interracial dating was quite rare, and interracial couples were sneered at and persecuted. Today, in most major cities interracial couples do not even draw a second glance. In addition most middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods when a black family moved on the block the rest of the families looked upon them with absolute horror. That just does not happen today. Moreover, blacks and other people of color were systematically denied housing in "white neighborhoods" by real estate agents, brokers, and a lack of desire to create and enforce housing discrimination laws. Blacks and persons of color were discriminated against in the work place, in the educational space, and in the housing market. I am sorry but that is just a fact.

It is true that racial quotas in the work place sometimes crowd out qualified white candidates, but i would put to you that the number of white candidates crowded out today is far less than the number of black job candidates who were denied positions solely on the basis of their race 30 years ago. And I say this as a "qualifed white male" candidate who has beed crowded out of advancement opportunities for reasons of gender and racial diversity more than once. But objectively, by and large society has benefitted from these changes. Affirmative action programs for instance have succeeded in enabling families who have been underprivledged for generations to climb out of the poverty cycly and move into the mainstream. Has there been collateral damage? Certainly. But if you think race relations and society in general was better off 35 to 40 years ago, than as someone who is old enough to remember those days, I must respectfully disagree.

[eddhead]

Absolutely. And here today we find out that the VT shooter was declared mentally ill and an imminent danger to others by a court in 2005. This is an individual who should have never passed a background check and been allowed to legally obtain his weapons. But, you're right. Even had the system not failed, it would have only been *slightly* more difficult for him to get a gun. Although, I'd argue that it wasn't the background checking system that failed first and foremost, but rather the judicial and social services systems which permitted this imminent danger to others to be out freely shopping for guns in the first place...

well he did pass a backgound check. the gun shop owner followed all the relevent state laws with respect to fire arms sales. He was provided with 3 peices of id all of which indicated consistency in name and address. He was never arrested, and he was not on the FBI's suspect list. The problem in this case is not lack of enforcement.. the local laws themselves are just not enough. There is no extra scrutiny involved for resident aliens. No checks are conducted on public court records ..a judge actually ruled he was mentally incompetant and required he be treated in a mental health facilitly.. but that piece of information is not part of the screenign process. No cooling off period.. after all we would not want to inconvenience anyone looking to purchase a gun anmd intefere with their right to bear arms.

[eddhead]

I just remembered something which you seldom hear about (I wonder why, given the "war on terror" talk that has obsessed our gubment for the last 5 1/2 years.) In the lat 90's Bin Laden-trained guy name Kansi, I think, walked into a gun store in northern VA and bought a semi auto AK-47 clone. A couple days later he murdered and wounded a number of CIA agents. Odd, isn't it? An evildoer kills people on US soil, at the CIA for God's sake, is succesfully "brought to justice" and we never hear about it? Wonder if the fact that he bought the assault rifle legally is the reason his attack never gets tossed into list along w/ the dozens of others repeated ad nauseum the people that never stop talking about terrorism?

Hypothetical: Imagine if the VT shooter were a muslim extremist and got the guns at the local Wal-Mart. Just wondering if anyone posting in this thread would be willing to submit to more stringent gun laws to make it harder --however slightly--for terroists to get guns.

and let's again point out that this happened in Va as well. So we have this event, the beltway snipers, and the most recent rampage at Va Techl. Yeah, Virgina does a great job with gun laws.

[eddhead]

Diversity alone doesn't necessarily lead to violence. But certain blends can and historically do, both here in the USA and elsewhere in the world.

Sorry but thos is also not true. Divirsity lends itself to greater racial tolerance over time in that it allows people of all colors, oreintations, and genders to become assimlated into the mainstream of society's fabric. A person is far less likely to exhibit ill feelings toward a racial, ethnic, or other cultural group when he or she lives, works and interacts with people in that ethnic group on a daily basis. Not to keep drawing on the same examples, but this is why we see social acceptance of multi-ethnic coupling, and neigborhoods today than in anytime in my life time

[capt_cope]

This is where your absolute stupidity manifests itself absolutely.......you extrapolate my reasoning all the way to absurdity.......but that's only to be expected in your case......you can't grasp the simplicity of the logic......so you take it to extreme....just as you have in your possession of firearms......'let me take it to the extreme.....I'm gonna buy an ASSAULT weapon.......why.....because it's my RIGHT ....".....an ASSAULT weapon was designed for what purpose .....as a tool......what was the designers intent when designing......oh let's see...I'm going to make a tool that will make it easier for combatants to KILL ........to ASSAULT AND KILL.......assault who.....?........'the enemy'.!

As for fertilizer.........I believe that farmers NEED fertiliser.....it's an essential 'tool' for them..........I think your Government already has in place ...laws that regulate fertilizer......it's just that as usual....they do a fukking poor job of actually 'regulating' them......just as they do a fukking poor job in terms of Intelligence gathering.......in terms of FEMA aid to disaster areas......in terms of looking after it's people in general....SNAFU.....!

You BOAST about having a FAL.....what possible reason could you have for a weapon of this type......and please....I know your small brain has difficulty with certain words and their meanings......NEED.....not RIGHT.........( I carried the BA equivalent of the FAL....the L1A1....chambered in 7.62mm ...a MILITARY cartridge ).......I think I'm seeing the beginnings of a certain similitude to Mr Cho here......" I need firearms to maintain my quality of life"........if that's what's required to maintain your quality of life......TRANSLATION......as long as I'm ok....and nobody takes my TOYS away.......FUKK everybody else......when's the video coming out......I just bet you have some wunnerful fotos of you with your ASSAULT weapon.......mind you.......you need an ASSAULT weapon....'cos you're incapable of doing any damage with the small number of brain cells you have in YOUR armoury..........!

Do you honestly think it was his avowed intention that this WMD should be available to the general public......if so.....WHY?......to what end would the general public....NEED....an assault weapon.......well....truth is......they don't....but it's their RIGHT....under the constitution.....so using your extrapolation......why don't we just allow the general public access to RPG's.......Laws rockets........percussion grenades......ad infinitum....!

The truth of the matter is that all those who own guns.......if their state was suddenly to impose a complete handgun ban....they would all whimper and cry and protest that their RIGHTS were being taken away......'it's an injustice....it's an injustice'........they're taking away my TOYS......it's not fair.....when the dust had settled.......their lives would carry on as before.......they'd find that they had no NEED for their toys......and the local government would then be free to concentrate on the task at hand......removing all ILLEGALLY held guns.......from the criminals.....it won't be easy.......in fact given the absolute determination of this nation to hold on to it's toys.....it'll be downright [censored] difficult........but if you're gonna bring the children into alignment.....well.....!

But of course the children whose toys would be taken from them....won't put up with that.....they'll shout and bawl and have temper tantrums......and just like the Rugrats that they are ...they'll marshal themselves together to maintain a status quo that suits them and nobody else.....!

I have to laugh when a YANK.....boasts proudly that they live in the best country in the world.....it's exactly that sentiment that causes non-Americans to laugh......and pity the poor uneducated Yank that holds the view......never been out of their own state never mind their own country.......completely insular.........they wouldn't have a clue if it bit them on the leg....and said ..."hi ...I'm a clue".... !

God Bless America....and nowhere else......HUH...?

I can't read more than a few sentences of what you wrote, poor composition will do that. And I do think I'm done responding to your drivel until you can manage to put it into a format that is easier on my eyes. I don't like to.........read.......[censored] like.......this. Oh yeah and get a clue, a firearm is NOT a WMD, and you look exceptionally stupid for continually using that acronym in place of another three letter word. Gun.

[eddhead]

Do you honestly think so, I've travelled the States extensively and found many,especially at lower social levels to be more ignorant,ill informed and bigotted than anywhere else I've been

yes I do. NYC for instance is the most ethnically integrated city in the world. Where live in Hell's Kitchen within the span of 10 blocks in either directon of my apt, you encounter a plethora of ethnic and racial groups of people, shops, restaurants, etc.. I have been to most of the major european asian metropolitan areas and truly consider NYC to be the most integrated city in the world. I will grant you that it is less the case in the rural sections of the country, but along the cities along the southern borders and the east and west coast ports of entry, are quite diverse and integrated

I meant my earlier comment about education, Jeez how can a Nuclear Power allow individual States to teach Creationism, doesn't that cause confusion in Chemistry,Biology & Physics if God created everything and Dinosaurs are all a crock o'****? , What hasppens if a kid moves half way through high school, doesn't that blow his/her mind??

The notion that that US schools teach creationalism as an alternative to evolution is also misinformed. In fact in a land mark case last year, in which the he Kansas Board of Ed was challenged by a creationalist group, the courts ordered that Creationalism NOT be included in the science curricula as there was insufficent proof that the theory was founded in accepted science.

Even Georgie though that Europe was a 'great country' until he got elected and had an advisor point to us on a map and explain that we've had Civilisation for over 2000 years, not just 200ish, remember we settled over there, not the oher way round :-)

You will get no argument from me about our President. I consider him to be a national embarrassment. Still, this country has survived poor leadership before and it wil again

Almost done.... Your media needs to show more World events, and not just the bad ones, and make TV shows more accurate, you shoot someone they die, they don't go " it's just a flesh wound, I'll be fine" Kids REALLY do believe that ***t.

Agreed. In fact when I travel abroad i am struck by the difference between CNN europe and CNN US in terms of globality of coverage. CNN US has adapted a tabloid like approach to reporting that is unbecoming and harmfull. Still, I would put to you that you are not immune to this... the Murdoch media empire extend to the UK as wll. I would also put to you that the European media is quite biased in its US coverage. Regardless of what you read, US society is not characterized by ill-informed, intellectually uncurious, irresponsibel gun toting cowboys. To an extent, this is the pot callin the kettle black.

Finally.....The US is nowhere near integrated

I live in a 60 story 550 unit building that is more diverse than many european cities i have visited. My neigborhood is diverse and integrated. i live here and i experience it everyday. sorry, i do not know how more plainly i can make that point.

you just have slightly more diverse Ghettos and have created new ones by building all your 'Gated Communities' with their Mexican domestic staff (all illegal,but HEY, I can't afford an American gardener/pool cleaner, do you know how much they want to be paid!).

More stereotypes. While thes communities certainly exist, and may be more prevelent in some areas than others, they are not close to the norm. And if you think the US is the only developed country in the world with ghettos you need to take a second look

You can sling anything you like at me, this isn't a 'We're better than you' post it's a 'wake up and stop defending the indefensible' post.

I am not slinging anything at you. And if you think I am defending the indefensible you need to re-read some of what I have written in this thread and elsewhere. What I am doing is espressing my displeasure over the use of oversimplifications, sterotypes, generalizations, and biases to describe a very complex multi cultural US Society, and arguing that your views are misinformed.

[cornerstone]

Not much point pontificating, so here are some general things I just happened to find interesting while reading around:

1. Not saying anything about the rights and wrongs of the Second Amendment - but it does seem that the original intention for it was indeed that individuals should be entitled to keep weapons. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." We have our modern sense of militia, but the right to bear arms was central to the road to independence in a different context. The rights of individuals to keep weapons was a right the previous government sought to deny, interestingly it was a right that colonists claimed was based in English law (pre-independence), and ultimately of course those very weapons came in incredibly handy during the victory of the Wars of Independence. It's not surprising then that the framers of the Constitution (who were visionaries beyond question - even if they did borrow from the Declaration of Arbroath EDIT: the amendment was of course, a subsequent amendment to it! END EDIT) sought to give the public the reassurance they desired. That their rights would not be infringed upon by government interference - it was their insurance against oppression. That they had the right to keep weapons, should the need arise to rise up against government interference.

The interesting thing about that, of course, is that Constitutional right to bear arms exists so that public citizens have the means rise up against their own government. To follow that through, the Constitutional right to own a weapon is for the purpose of shooting US soldiers.

Personally I don't think that's why many people who look to the Constitutional right want to keep a gun in the US. I think they hold their armed forces in high regard. Which might undermine their own arguments.

But it does open one intriguing possibility - when it says arms, presumably the public also have a right to keep advances in modern weaponry such as to defeat the military. I kind of like the idea of Bill Gates having his own stealth bomber tucked away for emergencies, or some kind of Dr Evil island in Hawaii.

2. I think the Wikipedia entries on gun control are interesting because you know that every point that's still there has been argued to death - ultimately it must grind down the BS on both sides to some extent.

3. Gun politics (internationally) seem to focus on homicides, do murder rates go up or down? Perhaps the real difference is in accidental shootings and suicides. Doing a Google News search for "accidental shooting" is pretty depressing. And the gun suicide figures (that I've seen anyway) are startling - they looked to be worse than homicides.

[rdorman]

Americans are one of the very few nations accepting 11.000 dead killed by handguns every year.

Shoot (pun intended), I thought it was higher then 11,000. Still, according to Interpol, we are 24th per capitas for murder. 'accepting', no way!

[Richard Tracy]

Just saw this, and while I am grateful of your service to this country, your poetic stuff I'm not such a fan of. In fact I'm decidedly against it. I like the US, as [censored] up as it's getting, living here is still light years better than any other country that I can think of. I won't bother posting reasons, because they are opinions, but if the US starts following the trends set by older societies... we're no longer the United States of America, then we're some [censored] "peace love happy landmass" That's actually some form of oppressive dictatorship, Not to mention we would no longer stand up for the very beliefs our nation was founded on. We were founded, as a nation, because we REFUSED to listen to the older society. Yes we're young, but age and wisdom don't walk hand in hand. Age and stagnation, however, DO.

You describe weapon control as a Trend'?? "Our country was founded,.because we refused to listen

to the older society"?

A few questions,...

How old are you ? What is your education in American and World History?

How long has your family lived here in America ? Why have you not served our country ?

How many countries have you travelled to or lived in ?

Trying to get a gage on what factors breed this myopic, arrogant mentality, and find out what, besides being born

here, makes you assume that you hold the microphone to speak up on who 'We' are, where 'We' come from

and where 'We' are going...?

[Guest TTK]

I can't read more than a few sentences of what you wrote, poor composition will do that. And I do think I'm done responding to your drivel until you can manage to put it into a format that is easier on my eyes. I don't like to.........read.......[censored]like.......this. Oh yeah and get a clue, a firearm is NOT a WMD, and you look exceptionally stupid for continually using that acronym in place of another three letter word. Gun.

You can't read more than a few sentences...because you have a very poor sense of comprehension....( maybe it's the effect of all those Skoal bandits ).....as for drivel....that's your specialty.....your whole argument was facetious and is based on one factor.....YOUR rights......doesn't mater what anyone else thinks.....YOU want YOUR rights....YOU have a RIGHT to enjoy yourself......even if that means killing a lot of paper.....and a few small animals in the process......your an intellectual GIANT..... you can be accused of being inaniloquent and sialoquent...( but once again that may be attributable to Skoal.....after all you can't beat it...).....and not least you definitely seem guilty of apanthropinization......that much seems apparent from your writings here...!

You really don't like the epithet WMD do you......it's ok for your Gubbamint to use it when they feel it's appropriate.....but YOU don't like it.....it hits a nerve with you.....doesn't it......I wonder why....perhaps because it shows you in your true light.....a supporter of WMD's,.....the acronym is entirely fitting in this circumstance.......if the media and officials can refer to this massacre as MASS MURDER.......then it's entirely appropriate to invest in an acronym that would describe the Weapon of Mass Destruction....used to MASS MURDER the victims at VT.......not to mention Columbine and all the others.....!

....

BTW....I've been a member of many fora......the word fora is plural for forum.....a forum is Latin for an area dedicated to open speech......I speak on internet fora as I would speak in an actual fora......I pause for consideration.....or to clarify a point.....I RAISE my voice to emphasize it...!

It's my STYLE of speech, however, if you would wish me to converse in a conventional manner, with emphasis on proper writing style and proper syntax, I can.........but won't .....to suit you.....so my last comment to you has to do with sex and travel......please feel free to indulge at your leisure.....or if not...perhaps you can get your 'collection' of WMD's out and indulge in a little mental masturbation with your toys......!

BTW...how about a few shots of you posturing with your FAL ASSAULT weapon......or maybe a couple of your handguns......I'm sure the members here would love to see them.......c'mon......you're a good ole boy...good ole boys aren't shy........plus old Charlton would be proud of you holding up your end......:

Edited April 19, 2007 by TTK

[Guest TTK]

....Sorry....DP...!

Edited April 19, 2007 by TTK

[Craytonic]

This is of course total and utter [censored]. Only outlaws ... and law-enforcement officers, security personnel, pest controllers and the military will have guns. You can spot who the criminals are and shoot them dead as they'll be the ones carrying guns.

I am sure they will have nice big signs they carry around that say "please shoot me! I am carrying an illegal gun." right.

[Guest TTK]

I think this sign is big enough and it also fulfills all the terms of the 2nd Amendment......if only he had been armed with one of these...as the founding fathers intended.....!

Instead of Cap'n Cope's weapon of choice.....this...!

Edited April 19, 2007 by TTK

[robc_uk]

But it does open one intriguing possibility - when it says arms, presumably the public also have a right to keep advances in modern weaponry such as to defeat the military. I kind of like the idea of Bill Gates having his own stealth bomber tucked away for emergencies, or some kind of Dr Evil island in Hawaii.

Thank you for this much needed levity in this rapidly decending into 'farce and stereotypes' post!

I've always seen 'Uncle Bill' as an architypal Bond Villain, but you are right, he really could be 'Dr Evil' So does that make Steve Ballmer 'No. 2' ??

Rob

Edited April 19, 2007 by rcherryuk

[HauteHippie]

YOUR rights......doesn't mater what anyone else thinks.....YOU want YOUR rights....

Indeed he does. And so do I. And so does my neighbor. And so does.... The funny thing about us Americans is that we're proud to live in a country based on the principles of a limited free republic under which one person's rights - my rights - stand up against the masses. So that when Rosie O'Donnell and her presumed million moms (plus TTK?) think that they can march into Washington and produce a petition which will take away my 2nd (or any) Amendment, that is absolutely baseless and absurd. My rights, his rights, my neighbor's rights are non-negotiable. And thank God for that.

[Craytonic]

I have to laugh just a little at those who think there will be any major changes in US gun laws. Even more so at those who are not even US residents. I think the planet is big enough for different systems and laws.