Random watch repair observations and tips

[The Technician]

OK, first of all, I'd like to say that the ETA movements in most of these watches you guys discuss on this site are very nice and if they are oiled correctly and no junk is left in the case will run well for many years without worry. So if you have a 28..whatever under your caseback, and it's been done right from the beginning, you have a nice watch, regardless of the fakery of the rest of the parts. 20 seconds a day is not bad for an unregulated movt. But with tweaking for the owner's habits, most are capable of much more.

Hairsprings are a [censored]. Never attempt to correct errors in your own hairspring if you can see them and you don't have lots of practice. I still practice, and I still curse them.

Not necessarily relevant to the reps here, but since most of you are across the board enthusiasts, here's a good one. a 3 slotted screw in a handwind or auto ALWAYS denotes left hand thread. In a chrono, it can also mean it is an eccentric (adjustment screw). Never touch the 3 slotted screws in a chrono if you don't know what they are connected to. The factory adjusted them, and chances are you won't be able to improve upon their work. 2 slots can also mean the same thing. the extra slots are not just decoration.

Waterproofing is not forever. Even in gens. Always get it checked before you go swimming if it's been a couple of years or you have had your case open. And make sure you crown is screwed down.

Black dials will show EVERY flaw, so be careful when working on them. The tiniest scratch will show, and you'll forever kick yourself.

Don't pull the whole movement apart for service if you have a decent ultrasonic. This was the biggest trick I've learned yet. Pull the windiUnless the movement is rusty or very old and gummy all will come clean in the ultrasonic, and save you a ton of labor. You can check pivots and play with the wheels and pallet fork in place. Trust me on this one. My mentor/bossman with over 30 years does it this way and it works. Now I do too.

Use end cutters, not side cutters when fitting new stems. Almost no dressing required in comparison, and way faster. Also, if you cut just a little too short, flatten a piece of solder, and cut little chips off with a razor blade, and "pack" the crown with them to make it fit. This trick can save you lots of grief.

Most non-AD watchmakers will work on your reps. You might be charged a little more because reps are a pain, but trust me, we see tons of them. Not many will turn you away.

I'm beered up right now, and that's all I can think of right now, but until next time, happy watchbreaking!

[NaviChief]

but until next time, happy watchbreaking!

Lol, classic. That was a great read! Beered up or not, thanks for the tips....keep um coming. I've been playing with movements for a few months now, everytime I start messing with my current swiss 7750 project my heartrate goes up about 80 bpm.

Edited May 1, 2007 by chief3630

[Pugwash]

Don't pull the whole movement apart for service if you have a decent ultrasonic. This was the biggest trick I've learned yet.

Thanks for that advice. I'll remember it.

I await your next beer!

[RWG Technical]

Don't pull the whole movement apart for service if you have a decent ultrasonic. This was the biggest trick I've learned yet.

but until next time, happy watchbreaking!

Yes I agree with that comment, it's a TRICK. Your fooling yourself if you think this is an acceptable way to service a watch, and any "watchmaker" that recomends this methode, is a hack.

It's called the old "SWISH and DIP", done in many shops, by people who's goal is volume of turnaround, not quality. It's also done by so called watchmaker wannabees, because they have no skills to take a watch apart and re-assemble it.

Not disassembling a movement completely while servicing it, is identical to adding a quart of oil to your car engine, and calling it an OIL Change, it's a scam and rip off.

This is how I service a movement, you can keep your swish and dip, I'll stick to the real way of doing watchmaking...maybe you should find another mentor...

RG

[offshore]

Zigg.

Yes, there are ways... and the correct way... I'm still learning.. hopefully the correct way.

There have been heaps of discussions on this @ NAWCC... this, the last in a long line of them.

http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a...=15;gtid=223542.

I'll take clean feet to clean shoes and socks... any day.... otherwise things just start to smell.!!!

Offshore

[cornerstone]

I guess the original advice is, if you own your own ultrasonic, a swish and dip is better than not doing a swish and dip. But for the 99.99% of watch owners that don't own an ultrasonic - don't pay for one. To which I would add, if you don't know how to disassemble a watch, you probably don't need to own an ultrasonic.

It raises an excellent point about how we can all be swindled by reputable watch repair places though.

[RWG Technical]

It raises an excellent point about how we can all be swindled by reputable watch repair places though.

Unfortunatly as the number of watchmakers dwindles down, this is the new wave of servicing from those who are in it for the money. It is equivalent to using one type of oil everywhere on your car, in the engine, transmission, brakes, power steering etc... It would not work on your car, and sure doesn't work on a movement.

The swish and dip does not even come close to acheving what is needed to service a watch. Imagine immersing a whole El Primero movement in the solution, then into the "dip" which leaves a light film of oil over everything...yeach. It takes up to 6 different oils and greases to properly lubricate a watch, there is no way that applying a film of oil over the whole movement does it any good.

As I have said before, there are no "shortcuts" and certainly not any "Tricks" when it comes to servicing a movement, or doing any job in watchmaking, tricks are for clowns...

RG

[cornerstone]

Indeed - and to the best of my amateur understanding, since the oil collects gunk, the key is to have minimal amount of the right oil in the places it's needed and in none of the places it's not.

[The Technician]

Yes I agree with that comment, it's a TRICK. Your fooling yourself if you think this is an acceptable way to service a watch, and any "watchmaker" that recomends this methode, is a hack.

It's called the old "SWISH and DIP", done in many shops, by people who's goal is volume of turnaround, not quality. It's also done by so called watchmaker wannabees, because they have no skills to take a watch apart and re-assemble it.

Not disassembling a movement completely while servicing it, is identical to adding a quart of oil to your car engine, and calling it an OIL Change, it's a scam and rip off.

This is how I service a movement, you can keep your swish and dip, I'll stick to the real way of doing watchmaking...maybe you should find another mentor...

RG

Ok The Zigmeister. I did it that way for 10 years.

First off, I never said anything about a "lube rinse". I have no idea where you got that. I oil the watch normally after the cleaning with 9010, 8415, D5, 941, PML, etc..

Next time try this: Pull your autowind bridge. Pull your winding bridge off. Leave the click spring in the bridge. Leave the balance in place. Leave the keyless works in place or as much as possible. Pop your mainspring barrel open, put open side down in cleaner basket. Do 10 minutes in the cleaner step, and three rinse steps at 4 minutes apiece, then spin dry for 10 to 20 minutes.

Pull the balance, one dip it, use an automatic oiler on the cap jewels while they are in place(auto oiler is also a big time saver, buy one) and check everything out. Lube normally. Put on timer, see perfectly running watch. Now tear it completely down like you normally do. It's as clean as it would be if you had done that in the first place, isn't it?

My mentor's watches stay out for 5 to 7 years after service like this. He let me do it the hard way for a month before he showed me how he managed to work on 6 watches at a time. Obviously there are watches that are either rust damaged or have been too long without a service to do like this, but on the average watch it works like a dream. Try it before you pooh-pooh the whole idea. He's no dummy. I work for his family, and they've owned the business for 51 years. We are swamped with business and if it was a sub-par way of doing things, we wouldn't have customers who have been coming in for 2 generations for service. It's a matter of determining whether the watch needs a complete teardown to get clean. It just isn't necessary most of the time.

If you think $45 to $150 for a service and regulation with a year guarantee from a brick and mortar shopthat has been there for 51 years is a swindling, you're welcome to your opinion. I did it just like you for 10 years. A school-trained master watchmaker with 30 years in the business showed me this. I suggest you try it before you knock it.

Edited May 1, 2007 by The Technician

[rdorman]

I don't know squat about servicing a watch but I do know I like that price point... particularly from a bricks and mortar type operation.

[The Technician]

Zigg.

Yes, there are ways... and the correct way... I'm still learning.. hopefully the correct way.

There have been heaps of discussions on this @ NAWCC... this, the last in a long line of them.

http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a...=15;gtid=223542.

I'll take clean feet to clean shoes and socks... any day.... otherwise things just start to smell.!!!

Offshore

Try joining the AWI instead. The NAWCC is mostly collectors and amature watchmakers, plus they are mostly clock people. The AWIs publication is invaluable for tips and tricks, and general watchmaking fun.

Edited May 2, 2007 by The Technician

[flavor flav]

Ok The Zigmeister. I did it that way for 10 years.

First off, I never said anything about a "lube rinse". I have no idea where you got that. I oil the watch normally after the cleaning with 9010, 8415, D5, 941, PML, etc..

Next time try this: Pull your autowind bridge. Pull your winding bridge off. Leave the click spring in the bridge. Leave the balance in place. Leave the keyless works in place or as much as possible. Pop your mainspring barrel open, put open side down in cleaner basket. Do 10 minutes in the cleaner step, and three rinse steps at 4 minutes apiece, then spin dry for 10 to 20 minutes.

Pull the balance, one dip it, use an automatic oiler on the cap jewels while they are in place(auto oiler is also a big time saver, buy one) and check everything out. Lube normally. Put on timer, see perfectly running watch. Now tear it completely down like you normally do. It's as clean as it would be if you had done that in the first place, isn't it?

My mentor's watches stay out for 5 to 7 years after service like this. He let me do it the hard way for a month before he showed me how he managed to work on 6 watches at a time. Obviously there are watches that are either rust damaged or have been too long without a service to do like this, but on the average watch it works like a dream. Try it before you pooh-pooh the whole idea. He's no dummy. I work for his family, and they've owned the business for 51 years. We are swamped with business and if it was a sub-par way of doing things, we wouldn't have customers who have been coming in for 2 generations for service. It's a matter of determining whether the watch needs a complete teardown to get clean. It just isn't necessary most of the time.

If you think $45 to $150 for a service and regulation with a year guarantee from a brick and mortar shopthat has been there for 51 years is a swindling, you're welcome to your opinion. I did it just like you for 10 years. A school-trained master watchmaker with 30 years in the business showed me this. I suggest you try it before you knock it.

to properly oil a movement it must be torn down anyways.. why not tear down before cleaning?? how does this save any time? not good advice...i see how it will come clean and it probably will be just as clean but are you not properly oiling?

[The Technician]

When you oil a movement, it (with the exception of the cap jewels ((unless you have an automatic oiler)) and a few other parts) is mostly back together anyways. This method allows you to clean the average movement without taking -everything- apart and achieve the same results. All stupid analogies aside, it never occured to me to do it this way because it isn't taught in any of the books, mostly because they were all written by guys in the 1930's who had to take everything down, clean it by hand with pegwood and dry parts in sawdust. No modern equipment available.

I think the adherents to the NO WAY BUT MY WAY has more to do with long division "so the kid understands what they're doing" than lack of effectiveness, or ignorance and blind adherence to dogma. All you have to do is try it to see that it works, or not. If you have a super gummy movement, or one that has problems other than normal dirt and dried lube you will have to take the whole thing down as I always did, and The Zigmeister still does, everytime.

But now I'm turning out watches at 3 times the rate, with the same results doing it this way. I'll take my lessons from the guy that MAKES hairsprings, arbors, screws, etc... that I can watch and talk to from now on. [censored], if all you do is read books, and do it note for note without questioning, you'll never progress. I didn't. George Daniels recommends you just throw out old screwdriver blades when they are worn rather than sharpening. Plain [censored]. If all I worked on were top drawer Chopard's and APs, you can bet they'd get that treatment everytime. But i'm working in the real world, and the time saved gets passed on to the consumer as dollars saved.

Once you get past the "magical" watch stage, and see how everything works together it's no different than a car. I do a normal tune up, without buggering things up, and fix and other current or up and coming problems as fast as possible without any shortcuts AS FAR AS RESULTS. All the shortcuts are in labor. I have a great tip I'd share that makes pushers super fast and easy to install and remove, but since there are "no tricks", please don't take a stout pair of tweezers and put a notch into one of the tips so you can put downward pressure onto the clamps when putting them back without slippage.

3rd, I'm not selling anything. Nothing. No services, no dials, no relumes, no parts. Just posting tips when I have time because I feel like it. All are welcome to try and discard anything I have to say. Just trying to contribute.

Edited May 2, 2007 by The Technician

[NRG]

At what point do you lubricate the barrel after cleaning?

Your mentor/employer has only shown you this way for one reason....money. My mentor, recently retired but with 40yrs in the business, told me about similar techniques some of the companies he worked for used to use.

No matter how you position it they are short cuts designed to maximize money. The reason he gave was costs / overheads spiral and punters won't bring a watch in for servicing if the service costs to much. It's that old scenario of how much the watch is worth vs how much it will cost to service every 5years. So, to keep service costs reasonable short cuts are taken....maybe great for common low end watches but as you point out, not a technique to be used on high end calibers!

[Pugwash]

This, by the way, is an interesting discussion.

[Usil]

Two points of view backed by years of experience. How can we lesser hobbiest ever know?

Usil

[andreww]

Very, I can't wait for Zig's response. Wonder if he is trying this right now?

[SportsterRider]

This, by the way, is an interesting discussion.

Agreed!

SR

[Guest avitt]

If what The Technician claims is true (and I have no reason to believe that it is not), then I can see a few advantages to his method: in addition to the saved time and money, there is the fact that fewer parts must be removed and handled. This would reduce the risk of incidental damage. Keeping a movement more intact might not be a bad thing...

Edited May 2, 2007 by avitt

[RWG Technical]

Well it is indeed interesting, I'll say that much.

As soon as you move past a ETA 28XX series, into say for example a 7750, your shortcut falls apart, since to get to the mainspring barrel you need to take most of the movement apart anyway...

Mainsprings should be replaced at every service, seems as if your cutting this corner as well, mainspring barrels need special grease for the bridle on the outer edge, applying this grease requires mainspring removal which you have not done either...

Things like cannon gears on a 7750 are lubricated at the factory with special oils, cleaning them will destroy this oil and the cannon pin is ruined.

You can't oil all of the pivots on a 28XX series without taking the date change over gear out of it's place and most of the dial side gears,

you can't oil the cannon pin on this series without taking it off and turning it upside down,

you can't oil the hour wheel to cannon pin without taking it apart,

you can't lubricate the clutch lever and various keyless works parts, again, without disassembly...etc, so all your oiling is the visible pivots, and nothing else...and this is acceptable?

The pallet stones require special oil, you don't mention removing and oiling them.

The clearances between the pivots and the jewels is extremely small, there is no way that the cleaning and rinse fluid is working it's way into these spaces, cleaning the old oil out, let alone being removed and dried and ready for fresh oil. A movement immersed into the cleaning and rinse solutions will still have both of these chemicals in them for a long time, if not forever...it's got no way to evaporate or dry off. Oiling a pivot correctly requires a dry pivot and jewel joint, so that the oil can wick into the correct location... your pivots are full of old oil and cleaning/rinse fluid.

An El Primero for example does not get certain parts cleaned or oiled, using this method would ruin the movement.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Sounds like a good argument and shortcut, but from my perspective, I'll stick to what my late uncle, who was a master watchmaker from 1935 until his death 4 years ago, taught me, and what is accepted among reputable shops and master watchmakers around the world. Lets see you post this on TZ and see what the experts there tell you.

It all sounds interesting, but not something I will do, as I pointed out already, based on your comments, it's easy to see that you or your boss are not doing a correct job if you dont' take the movement apart and lubricate them, 51 years, repeat customers, or whatever. That in itself does not make it right, there are many businesses that have been aroudn for years, and scam people every day... There are well known accepted ways to service a watch, what you describe is not an accepted way...

But if it works for you and your boss, fine by me, we'll agree to disagree. Your arguments fall apart, as I pointed out all the problems above. For some reason your writing style is all too familiar...strange...

Lets see you post this on TZ and see what those who know far more about watches than I ever will have to say...since my word probably doesn't hold much weight...

RG

[RWG Technical]

Very, I can't wait for Zig's response. Wonder if he is trying this right now?

I wonder which one of my customers would want this done to their watch?

Probably no one...

RG

[andreww]

After reading your previous post Zig, its all pretty clear. As with anything, the only way to fix properly, is to do it correctly.

[RWG Technical]

After reading your previous post Zig, its all pretty clear. As with anything, the only way to fix properly, is to do it correctly.

If ever I have time to waste, I will do this to a 2836, let it dry, take it apart and show you the cleaning fluid all between the plates, pivots, gears etc...

This is only my opinion based on what I see, if anyone was at the bench beside me, they could easily see that you can't do it this way, and expect good results.

I'll stick to the time and tested ways, and leave the shortcuts to others. I am sure Ubi would not have appreciated his El Primero being treated this way.

RG

[rdorman]

Very interesting thread! Two sides of the coin both supported by knowledge and experience.

This debate aside, it sounds like the Technician will have much to offer.

But, from a non-watchmaker, customter standpoint, I find The Zigmeister 'argument' to be more compelling.

I remember something VERY similar to this happening on another forum, an automotive one, devoted to Cobras (the 60's and replica kind). A 'new' builder on the scene was making claims about his motors. I put 'new' in qoutes because this guy was certainly NOT new, just new to the community in the forum. Others cried foul and said his claims where false. So a challenge was eventually agreed upon where in the 'warring' parties agreed to certain peramiters and a neutral third party evaluated the results. It was very interesting for all.

[zetterdawg]

The Zigmeister FTW!!!!111!!