mezzanine Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 With the new, very expensive "super reps", we need a more reliable option than the standard 7750. You've tried to address this by offering a swiss option at cost- but really, that's starting to enter a grey-area as far as value in a rep. I think you understand this. Everything I've been led to believe suggests that the pricing on these is, to a significant degree, determined by the factory. I accept this. What we need from you, is to find a way to build some value/reliability into these 7750 using the resources you already have. The challenge: Start offering cheap servicing of the 7750 super-reps for as low a price as you can find. I KNOW that Chinese labour is cheap, so I don't believe that the guy in Ghangzhou will offer his services for only slightly less than the most-excellent The Zigmeisterzumba...who is a fellow canadian citizen. I know The Zigmeister is overwhelmed to even keep up at his exceptional rate. The dealer to source out cheap servicing of these movements will corner the market for 7750 super reps. It's that simple. You may not be able to negotiate with the factory/maker, but I know that you could build value in for your loyal customers in other ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMK000 Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 I'll second that. Would definately buy this service when and if available. There is nothing worse than spending $300-$400 and getting a non functioning watch or a watch that dies 15 days later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted May 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 I *believe* that Angus might be offering movement servicing for $150, and I also seem to remember Josh having servicing as an available option...but I'm talking about something different. I'm talking about offering customers servicing for like $75 on these specific 7750 super-rep watches. If it's a $200 asian chrono, like an SMP chrono or a Tag Link Chrono, fine...I don't care about the servicing. Even a BCE ultimate I would let go. But not a HBB or an IWC Cousteau, or an AP ROO, if the good version of that ever comes out. I really believe this is something that should have already happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 The problem with this is that you have no way of knowing the work has been done. I'm not suggesting our dealers would lie (well, maybe not about this) this time, but their suppliers certainly would. Anyone ever having dealt with Chinese labour will tell you that the only way to get quality control and promised work is by having a representative in the Far East watching their every move. It's the big dilemma in outsourcing companies right now: Sure the labour is cheaper, but you need a western rep there 24/7 watching over them, and this wasn't budgeted in their great cost-cutting outsourcing plans. Instead of extra servicing, how about a simple one year warranty? Would you believe it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepsea Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 I will never give over 400 to a watch that has asian movement. although my hublot desire but on the other hand, I will never give around 800-1000to a swiss 7750... not because it is bad, but because it is REPLICA... that's my .02... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cableguy Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 ^ agreed....700.00+ for a replica is crazy. i can buy a nice gen for that....perhaps not a breitling or rolex, but never the less i can get a nice tag or something for that price. (retailer discount/cost) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 - I am not a buyer of the I could buy a nice gen instead theory. You can buy a nice gen for $75.00 that will keep far better time than a $7,000 gen. The problem is folks want a $7,000 watch without paying $7,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 The problem with this is that you have no way of knowing the work has been done. That is the problem...unless you take it apart, you can't tell if the work was carried out. And even if someone said it was serviced, and the watch stopped working was it due to a fault, or lack of servicing? Failure rates of the A7750 is quite low, and tagging on another $100 or so, stating "It's been fully serviced" would be a cash cow as far as I am concerned, since there is no proof of the servicing actually being carried out. I have seen an A7750 that was according to the owner "Fully professionally serviced" as sold by one of the dealers, when I looked at it, it was completely dry, no oil, nothing was done to it... There has to be a trust between the person offering the servicing and the customer, I am not sure that exists in this case. Where would you find watchmakers in Asia to service all these watches, before delivery? I think that alone is a big problem, why train to service watches, when it's cheaper to install a new movement?? RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaviChief Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 I have seen an A7750 that was according to the owner "Fully professionally serviced" as sold by one of the dealers, when I looked at it, it was completely dry, no oil, nothing was done to it... Ouch, that is the kinda thing everyone thinks in the back of their mind, but it is like a kick in the gut to hear confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 (edited) It can't be done......I've been thru about 7-8 Asian "watchsmiths".......and they are NOT reliable......you can give him an Asian 7750 and he'll do a full service.....he'll do that until you place your trust in him.......the next one you give him....might have nothing done to it at all.....they will LIE.......and then they will LIE.......the will buzzsaw thru' corners.......swish and dip is a FULL service compared to what Asian watchsmiths will do.......they are not all bad....I have about 3x good ones......but they are slow....and you defo can't hit them with tens of watches per week....unless you bring him on board specifically to handle your output....and that means higher prices to you guys.......! The problem again.....is that most of YOU want the FLASH......but don't want to pay the CASH........the factories won't invest in personnel to service...clean and lube every item off the line.....and the dealers don't have the resources to do it with every item......unlike most of the dealers...whocan be handling large numbers of items.......YOU ..on the other hand are buying only 1x item at a time......it's time for you to take the responsibility of having your FAKE....MOODY......REPLICA.....STATUS SEEKING HOMING MISSILE.....serviced......Better Business Bureau rules don't apply here......as I said above.....most of you have UNREASONABLY high expectations......from fake watches......the dealers can respond to certain demands......but providing absolute QC is not high on their agenda......WHY......because YOU....want the FLASH....but don't want to pay the CASH. There is one particular customer that pisses me right off........the customer who orders a MECHANICAL timepiece.......has no KNOWLEDGE of them.....therefore when it needs regulating......it's straight back to the dealer...here's the chat....! CUSTOMER......."the watch is running 2 minutes fast per day"....... SUPPLIER ( ME )...."well...take it to a watchsmith and have it regulated...if you can't do it yourself"...! CUSTOMER...."I don't have a watchsmith in my town".....! SUPPLIER ( ME )...."well...go to WAL MART and buy a quartz watch....! I mean.....if you lived on Tristan da Cunha.....and there were only two dealers specialising in quad bikes to get around the island......you wouldn't buy an Audi TT.....would ya.....duh...! If you're NOT prepared to take some accountability......you have to pee with the pecker you have.....! I love the guys who give you the old schmooze......"I can buy a genuine for not much more....".......so what'stopping ya....go put your money where your mouth is........oh and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out......! Edited May 12, 2007 by TTK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshot Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 it's so nice to have TTK back just the warm fuzzy feeling of... home! i will say that seeing the newest best AP ROO with the 'swiss' 2892 at 2500 euros (!!!!!!!) is just freakin nuts for a watch with no quality control and no warranty that is insane... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montydog Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Hi TTK, You make some interesting points and it's useful to see things from the dealer's point of view. Ultimately, it comes down to trust. If you say to me that a full service and regulation is going to cost $100 or even $200 and I know that it's going to be done properly, I will happily pay. On a good quality rep I'm still way ahead of the game. Even If I spend $400 on the watch and $200 on a service and I'm confident that the watch will last and be accurate, I've got 98% of the watch at 10% of the price of the gen. The temptation from the dealer's point of view is to take the $200, not service the rep and hope that by the time the watch fails one of us won't be around. I would suspect that a lot of people on here would trust the good dealers to not "take the money & run". If you are in this business for the long haul, word gets around and this could be to your advantage. Regards M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Having serviced watches would be a way to screw those who don't pay for the service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 (edited) @montydog.......providing 'serviced' watches is a great idea......the problem lies in two areas....! 1. Charging for it......whether it's $50 0r $500buxx...places a liability on the dealer to ensure that the work is done.......most dealers do not have the necessary exoertise let alone the time to tell if a watch is serviced or not......how do you confirm it has been......open it up...( again ).......and do a tear down.......you are placing your watch and your REPUTATION in the hands of someone who has no vested interest in your reputation.....only in the amount of baht you are giving him.....and you're just another farang.....with a bulging wallet.....so when the first batch get done....and he sees that he probably only needs to give most of them a cursory glance....and doesn't carry out the service.....but tells you he did......then you the customer sends it to The Zigmeister......the dealer is screwed...with all the adverse publicity on the board..because the customer thinks the dealer screwed him.......! Can you imagine if every LEGAL dealer had to check every watch they sell......it couldn't be done......they rely on the manufacturer to put QC in place.....if the manufacturers passed the responsibility of QC to the dealer....we would all be wearing sun dials....and the rep manufacturers will NOT invest in QC....their objective is to shift FAKE items.....not provide a TGA.....! 2. Volume of work.......without saying how many watches I sell never mind the larger dealers......where and how are you going to get enough watchsmiths to carry out the work.....as The Zigmeister says.....the mentality ...even here in Asia is to swap out rather than 'service' an item......the vision of the 'old time 'smith' with a loupe permanently wedged in his eye socket....stripping watches down to the nth degree and exclaiming...'ahh I see the problem".......is simply wishful thinking. That's why I hand pick ALL my watches.....and do what I can to ensure they are the best I can send out.......it's not infallible......but at least it's a start.....! Edited May 13, 2007 by TTK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 What Pug said. Some people are just too trusting. If my local franchised garage think they can get away with double charging for service items, not changing the spark-plugs when they said they had etc. etc. then I sure as hell am neither going to believe or pay for a premium 'service' on a watch from afar. If this [censored] starts happening (and sadly it seems to be already) I'll gladly accept the huge discount on the non-serviced model, thanks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAMman Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 As far as I'm concerned I would be happy to take a chance on the new Asian 7750 movement if the hand sizes were the same as the old Asian / Swiss 7750. This would mean that a swap would be straightforward when needed and a new Swiss movement can be bought for 200 - 250USD. The different hand sizes is the most annoying, unnecessary piece of aggravation in this whole issue. Please campaign for this to be taken up with the movement manufacturer. I am suspicious of the offer of a Swiss movement option as I suspect that the Asian sized hands will be simply glued onto the Swiss movement rather than manufacturing a special run of hands to suit the few who go for this (expensive) option. If you do buy a Swiss movement watch then it may be some time before you find that the hands cannot be removed for a service or repair. PLEASE MAKE THE ASIAN 28,800 DIRECTLY COMPATIBLE WITH THE ETA 7750. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxus Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 You know i think were all relatively happy with what we get, servicing should be left to the professional who have made their reputation out of it, like The Zigmeister. One viable option like the above person mentioned is making the 28.8k 7750 be more compatible with the ETA version, as far as the hands go. So that in the event we need to replace a movement we can go straight for the ETA or offer the asian movement at a reasonble price, I mean if it really is cheaper to just replace than repair or service, then let us buy replacement asian movements with ease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted May 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 (edited) You know, I've been thinking about this some more, and while I'd almost been a convert to the pre-dominant opinion that it wouldn't work and is ill-conceived, I still think it's a cop out. Are we going to undue to the binding ties of society for the watchsmith? Come on. Don't over complicate this. I'm talking about shopping out a watchsmith that you're going to develop a relationship with- you're going to be a huge provider of work for him, providing sustenance for his family. Does the fact that there are crooked mechanics mean that we should stop taking our cars in for oil changes? I would think that this mentality would be absurd for anyone who has seen the benefit in sending their asian chrono into The Zigmeister for servicing. Honestly, I don't even care if my HBB has been serviced, being that I paid the same as I would have for it because it was slightly used, than if it was new and unserviced. But I do feel WAY better about it. Explain that one to me. If I've been frauded, so be it. Allow me the chance to feel as though this watch has been serviced for an additional 'cost sensitive' fee that is designed to bring congruency to the fit and finish of these asian chrono Super Reps. If we can't establish some degree of trust with the long time dealers here by now, that they would ensure that the service was being done...that would be an insult to the dealers that obviously pride themselves on their reputation. Most of our dealers 'seem' honest enough to me that they would not set this up as an elaborate ruse. Not only that, but being that they're trustworthy, they would only deal with people that they trust- when such significant work-orders under THEIR name are to be involved. Guess what guys, the market has changed towards expensive super reps, and most of the time the more expensive ones are going to be chronographs. ETA's are on the way out, and a well serviced asian, unless our resident expert is incorrect (highly doubtful), is not a bad second option. Chinese labour is cheap. There are people at the 'marketplace' that will do it for you on the spot- are there not? I don't think this should be as easily dismissed as it has been. *edit: mods, I just had a bad thought...and it totally wasn't my intention with this thing to undercut any of The Zigmeister's business, seriously- if this would do that, then please remove this thread. Or at least this post. losing The Zigmeister for this type of service would be a bad trade for everyone here. Edited May 13, 2007 by mezzanine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted May 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Also, I don't buy the argument that since it only costs 100 bucks for the movement, that replacing it when it breaks down is a better option than having it serviced for around that, or slightly less than that price. I don't mind if the arguments are sound, but I see a lot of vacuous stuff going on here in terms of actual reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Most of our dealers 'seem' honest enough to me that they would not set this up as an elaborate ruse. Not only that, but being that they're trustworthy, they would only deal with people that they trust- when such significant work-orders under THEIR name are to be involved. Sadly, the above does not appear to be the case. As Pug suggests, unless the dealers are prepared to offer aftersales warranties then pre-sale puff is exactly that. Chinese labour is cheap. There are people at the 'marketplace' that will do it for you on the spot- are there not? I don't think this should be as easily dismissed as it has been. I think Neil has addressed this point more than adequately. He is at the coal-face and knows that what you are asking for is not practical. I personally would rather source my own watch repairs locally, which I have done, rather than add credence to a system that will give our dealers an excuse to push the price of our watches up with little or no way for us to verify that we have actually received anything for the extra cash. I mean, do you plan to strip down each watch on receipt to see if every wheel and pinion has been properly lubricated?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montydog Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Neil, Can you empty your PM box please, I'm trying to send you a message!!!!! Thanks M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 *edit: mods, I just had a bad thought...and it totally wasn't my intention with this thing to undercut any of ziggy's business, seriously- if this would do that, then please remove this thread. Or at least this post. losing ziggy for this type of service would be a bad trade for everyone here. That thought never entered my mind until you mentioned it here. I fix watches as a hobby and because I can and like to, nothing more. My services will always be required as long as there are mechanical watches out there. No concerns from my end, no more so than someone new offering services, it's a free market, the more the merrier... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted May 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 That thought never entered my mind until you mentioned it here. I fix watches as a hobby and because I can and like to, nothing more. My services will always be required as long as there are mechanical watches out there. No concerns from my end, no more so than someone new offering services, it's a free market, the more the merrier... RG Me neither, but then I started to wonder about the whole idea of trying to find a way to exploit the cheaper Chinese labor, and the less-than-enthusiastic response, which is probably justifiably for some other legit reasons...but my intention had been to try to get real cheap servicing (not the dip and swish or whatever) on *only* these super rep chronos. I also DO still want to hopefully use your service, and see the additional value you offer vs. some guy in a stall in Ghangzhou...no doubt. Dealers like Josh, and I believe Puretime, already offer pre-servicing (I believe) and both are what I would consider trustworthy. I just think they should offer it for WAY cheaper on the super reps, where the values of these beautiful watches like the HBB or the Cousteau or the TT EVO's, etc... are compensated for, in terms of the gap between the quality of the case, materials, finish, vs. the poor QC asian 7750 movements. r11co, I hear where you're coming from, and I went back to check Neil's points, and for me, the best point was the one about the volume of watches these dealers do, and how much of an inconvenience it would be to actually have to start organizing something like that. This isn't unprecedented, by the way. Belial2k was a dealer on the darkside that specialized in this type of thing, although from the states, I believe. I still feel that this is largely negated by doing specific orders only for those customers that are ordering an asian 7750 super rep. I believe this would still represent a smaller portion of the average dealers business at this point, but I could be mistaken. It's interesting that we, as customers, are helping to find ways to figure out reasons why this 'couldn't' work, as opposed to how it possibly could, or what type of decent alternatives there are. One of the decent alternatives, I guess, is to to do a swap for a swiss movement. Then there is the issue of the hands, though- which I'm still not clear on. Another is a straight swap of another asian if it breaks down for a 100 bucks. Thats just stupid, IMO. But servicing that asian initially for slightly less than that would seem to be "the next step" IMO. I believe the dealers would increase their sales volume on watches like the ceramic HBB by throwing in that type of service. They may not have control of the pricing from the factories, but I fear for THEIR business, if they're on the hook for those prices with the asian 7750 movement. Ultimately, you want everyone to do well. I think the whole AR push did that. It brought about one of the major 'finishing' touches I think we needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdorman Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Please excuse me if I don't understand what is being asked for here......... Does any one listen to The Zigmeister? Reason I ask is that he has repeatedly said, done reviews, etc on the new 7750 and found it to be a good movement. Even in this thread he said the failure rate of the Asian 7750 is quite low. It is when it is modified with the 11 extra gears/plate/etc to run with seconds at 6 like a 7753 that the movement has problems. It is being asked to do things for which it was not designed. If it is running in its 'native' configuration, there isn't a darn thing wrong with the 7750. I have several 7750's all not serviced and a 7750 modded like a 7753. All are running well, very well. But, I did take the extra step to have the modded on serviced. Since it was starting 'handicapped', I wanted to give it a good shot at life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new & improved osteopath Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 I will never give over 400 to a watch that has asian movement. although my hublot desire but on the other hand, I will never give around 800-1000to a swiss 7750... not because it is bad, but because it is REPLICA... that's my .02... That's pretty much where I was until I decided I really wanted the Santos 100 chrono. I saw that the reps were getting better, had the same movement as the genuine, and as Cartier periodically cubtly changes their dials, I felt I would not likely be called. Upon receiving the watch, and adding a 300 dollar OEM band- bringing it into the realm of the $1000 dollar rep, I still feel like I got my money's worth. The rep is essentially perfect- and while it is still a rep, bear in mind that the movement (after servicing of course) should be as reliable as the gen. The 7753 is a solid, workhorse movement. If I had purchased a gen for the 7600 srp I would have been [censored] out of my gourde if someone showed me this rep. It is truly remarkable. NOW- I have had enough bad experience with the ASIAN 7750 (one watch was enough) to know that I will avoid it like the plague. A high end rep is not worth anything to me if I have to constantly check my wrist to see if the watch is still running, or if bits have fallen off. I have read a few reviews which suggest this movement has improved over the past year or so, but until I see people with reps which have lasted a couple of years, I still would not bite. I really like the Hublot, but there's just no chance I'll get one with the time bomb ticking inside of it now. (Which still begs the question why a gen won't fit- nobody has really given me a satisfactory explaination for this omission) Best, -O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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