Which 3 Gets the Date?

[freddy333]

The photo above contains pictures (from doubleredseadweller.com) of 2 genuine DRSDs

(I resized & converted the original images to black and white to reduce the photographic

differences between them). As you can see, the datewheel font used during the DRSD's

production changed. The initial DRSD, version 1, has a rounded & serifed '3'. This was later

changed to the flat, non-serifed '3' as shown in version 5.

Shortly after installing the wonderful Watchmeister datewheel (which has the flat 3) in my

DRSD, I decided to switch it back to the original MBW datewheel (which has the rounded 3).

I did this mainly because I was never able to properly center the Watchmeister datewheel

in the date window. And an off-center date is one of the things I always look for when I am

trying to tell a gen watch from a rep (gen Rolexes rarely have off-center dates). But each

'3' font has its merits and I continue to go back and forth as to which one looks better in

my DRSD. Since both are accurate for the DRSD, it is really just a matter of taste and

preference.

I plan to be taking my watch apart again to complete the next stage of mods and I would

like to get input from members as to which style you prefer and why.

[kingkitesurf]

Flat top three.. IMHO it's pretty and distinguishes the watch from ohter replicas...

[alligoat]

Like you freddy, I've seen both datewheels on DRSD's (or WSD's), but I would say that the flat-top 3's are the more common type of datewheel seen on the 1575 Rolex movement. I actually have a gen 1500 Date from 1966 (1575 movt) with the round top threes and closed sixes and nines. I've also seen the round top 3's with the open sixes and nines similar to the later 3035 and early 3135 datewheels. But overall, I've seen more of the vintage 1575 movts w/ the flat-top threes, and open 6's and 9's. In original subs and SD's they were originally silver background, but later Rolex replacememtns were white background. And of course, during initial assembly by Rolex, they were prone to using whatever stock was on hand.

I've got the Watchmeister datewheel, but I haven't gotten around to installing it on my WM 1680, because it's just not that big a deal to me at this point!

I;'ve also noticed that Wholesale outlet in Sugar Land, TX is selling a 1575 aftermarket datewheel w/ the flat top threes and open sixes and nines for around $40 on ebay. Last week I saw it w/ alternating red and black numbers!

[Sherrington]

You probably know my opinion already!! I much prefer the rounded 3 datewheel, mainly because it's more accurate, much better printing and perfectly centred on every number (just like my Luenfat datewheel). I agree that the first thing that stands out a mile is a poorly centred date which screams "REP".

[freddy333]

Sherrington -- No surprises from you on this subject, but I am glad to get your input again. I have been thinking along the same lines, which is why I swapped the original MBW datewheel back. But I do like those flat 3s and KKS and Alli make good points in their favor. If only I could get the damned datewheel to center as well as the OEM wheel.

I will be starting (and hopefully completing) the He valve mod this evening along with fitting the Tudor hands and Superdome from Clark's and finishing up some other odds and ends, so I will take another look at the datewheels while the dial & movement are in front of me.

[Qsub]

A misalligned datewheel is jsut absolutely NO indication for a rep... have you seen any genuine Rolex Sherrington? Misalligned bezel inserts, dusty dials, no accurately at 12:00 clicking date, poor bracelet quality, and many many misalligned dates...

I have a couple of genuine 'Dates' of early 70's vintage. On each of them when the date gets up to the '20s' it's too far to the left....

[freddy333]

I think sometimes it can be hard to tell if the alignment is off due to the way light and shade hit the date window. But when looked at from directly from the front and under direct lighting, I have only seen 2 gen Rolexes that had misaligned dates (1 of these had just been serviced by Rolex Beverly Hills, so they took the watch back and put it right). I do not doubt that there may be some out there, but I think they are more the exception than the rule. Rolex QC checks and corrects for things like that. And in those rare cases when someone on Timezone mentions having a misaligned date, the entire Rolex group tells him to send the watch right back to Rolex so they can fix it.

[cskent69]

Well, as a person who is actively trying to solve a similar problem - i want to go with the flat top 3's on my 1680 but am reluctant to attempt to get the Watchmeister overlay in the 1680. (I have it in my 1665 - and it looks great). I am not sure that I will like it under the date magnification.

However, i have other overlays that I have been attempting and they have not been positioned correctly in the window (with all numbers being to left justified). So, at this point - I am willing to go with any metal overlay solution which will place the date into the center of the date window. I can't stand mis-aligned dates. Yes, i have seen these messed up in genuine watches (none rolex) but it still bothers me.

So - in your DRSD - i would go with the Watchmeister overlay. It will look great if you can get in aligned the way you like it.

[Guest avitt]

I'd venture to say that the WM datewheels cannot be perfectly aligned (all dates, all the way through the month). I attribute this to some spacing variations on the template, as well as the flexibility of the vinyl material.

I experienced some issues with the first one that I installed, so I was extremely careful on the second try. Here is procedure that I used:

1. I removed the original date wheel.
   
2. I used a metal scribe to mark the original date wheel on the edge at 3 locations (I picked the dates 9, 19, and 29)
   
3. I sanded down the datewheel, to be sure to allow enough space for the overlay.
   
4. I used a fine, permanent marker to mark the edge of the WM overlay in the exact center of the 9, 19, and 29 dates.
   
5. I placed a drop of water on the adhesive of the WM overlay. This allowed me to float the DW into position, and make fine adjustments.
   
6. I perfectly centered the overlay on the metal datewheel.
   
7. I perfectly aligned the marks on the overlay and datewheel.
   
8. I waited for everything to dry.
   
9. I reinstalled the DW.
   

For the most part, it looks great, but I still notice some issues:

• Most, but not all, of the dates are biased to the left of the date window.
  
• Throughout the month, the date will vary from centered, to low, to high in the window.
  
• For example, the teens are low, the 20's are centered. The 30th was a bit high, but today is perfect.
  

Now, I'm just giving this information for those who are considering this installation. I find the print quality to be excellent.

[Sherrington]

A misalligned datewheel is jsut absolutely NO indication for a rep... have you seen any genuine Rolex Sherrington? Misalligned bezel inserts, dusty dials, no accurately at 12:00 clicking date, poor bracelet quality, and many many misalligned dates...

I have seen and handled plenty. It's obvious from your comments that you haven't. As freddy says it depends on the way the light throws shadows on the date window. If you look through a loupe and directly over the top in diffused light then they are perfectly centred.

[dieselpower]

I'm no technician but will throw my opinion in just for the hell of it and based purely on aesthetics.

My vote goes for the round top three - absolutely.

For some reason the flat top does not seem to marry as well with the overall look of the watch, which is pleasing because I have an MBW DRSD with Joe at the moment for mods and I was wondering weather to ask him to do something about the datewheel, now I know that the gen came with both round and flat top I am quite happy to leave the MBW wheel as it is.

Thanks Freddy333 for the post I have not only learned something but actually been able to make a decision that has saved me some $$$

[kingkitesurf]

I have exacty the same issue with the datewheel. We are talking very small margins. So I found a solution. The vinyl sticker is flexible so I wrote down which numbers were of center and to what extend. Then I took of the dial and pushed with my finger (a bit dirty so the sticker would look more authentic) on the numbers towards the direction to center. Put the dial back on and tried a full month cycle. There where still off redone the process. Until it was good. Now it is fine. My problem is that the dial pushes the datewheel so sometimes it does not slide that well.

The flat top is sooooo much more beautiful! The MBW default is just to tiny and thin.

I'd venture to say that the WM datewheels cannot be perfectly aligned (all dates, all the way through the month). I attribute this to some spacing variations on the template, as well as the flexibility of the vinyl material.

I experienced some issues with the first one that I installed, so I was extremely careful on the second try. Here is procedure that I used:

1. I removed the original date wheel.
   
2. I used a metal scribe to mark the original date wheel on the edge at 3 locations (I picked the dates 9, 19, and 29)
   
3. I sanded down the datewheel, to be sure to allow enough space for the overlay.
   
4. I used a fine, permanent marker to mark the edge of the WM overlay in the exact center of the 9, 19, and 29 dates.
   
5. I placed a drop of water on the adhesive of the WM overlay. This allowed me to float the DW into position, and make fine adjustments.
   
6. I perfectly centered the overlay on the metal datewheel.
   
7. I perfectly aligned the marks on the overlay and datewheel.
   
8. I waited for everything to dry.
   
9. I reinstalled the DW.
   

For the most part, it looks great, but I still notice some issues:

• Most, but not all, of the dates are biased to the left of the date window.
  
• Throughout the month, the date will vary from centered, to low, to high in the window.
  
• For example, the teens are low, the 20's are centered. The 30th was a bit high, but today is perfect.
  

Now, I'm just giving this information for those who are considering this installation. I find the print quality to be excellent.

[Guest avitt]

I have exacty the same issue with the datewheel. We are talking very small margins. So I found a solution. The vinyl sticker is flexible so I wrote down which numbers were of center and to what extend. Then I took of the dial and pushed with my finger (a bit dirty so the sticker would look more authentic) on the numbers towards the direction to center. Put the dial back on and tried a full month cycle. There where still off redone the process. Until it was good. Now it is fine. My problem is that the dial pushes the datewheel so sometimes it does not slide that well.

The flat top is sooooo much more beautiful! The MBW default is just to tiny and thin.

A billiant solution! It might take some time and effort to get everything perfect, but the results should be oh, so satisfying

BTW, the dial pressure was the reason that I thinned the original metal wheel, before installing the overlay.

[eunomians]

Datewheel overlays = pain in the buttocks

Datewheels with overlays glued/pre-aligned and ready to drop in = ice-cold glass of beer

PS. I prefer the silvery datewheels. All of my OEM vintage Rolexes have the silvery wheel (lucky I guess).

[Watchmeister]

That ain't luck. You have to have the vintages in the first place.

[freddy333]

Thank you to EVERYONE who contributed their enlightened comments, experience, observations and VERY useful installation tips.

Just minutes ago, the DRSD was completed. All that now remains is to mod the caseback (still working out the details on that), dial lume (I have purposely held off doing this because I am working on a different method of recreating the tritium look without reluming & the MBW dial contains so many inaccuracies that the search continues for a better alternative) and, possibly, to ice the cake and close the book, swapping the 2846 out for a 1570.

As I write this, I am processing several new photos (including wrist shots) from my Canon A80 and I will post these along with additional details of the story in the He men don't take Subs thread. But, as this thread is about the datewheel, I will say this -- Due to a number of mistakes, foul ups & nightmarish accidents (all my fault), I ended up using the Watchmeister datewheel in the end. As you probably already know, I ran into a problem with the stem and keyless works (for those who do not know, the 'keyless works' are the set of gears that connect to the crown/stem in a wristwatch that replaced the key winding system used in old clocks (like grandfather and cookoo clocks)) in the 2846 after I had finished all of the remaining mods (He valve, superdome, Clark's Tudor hands & final case contouring). The problem turned out to be that the clutch lever had gotten bent (how? I do not know?) and then slipped out of the groove in the clutch wheel, which left the clutch wheel sliding freely along the stem, so it never came into contact with the setting wheel, etc. Bad turned to worse when, while working on the keyless works, I accidentally broke two of the teeth on the ratchet wheel and then had to start swapping those parts (I am laughing about it now, but that is probably because I have not slept for 24 hours). This picture shows the broken teeth on the ratchet wheel and the missing spring that used to be under the crown wheel

Well, after spending nearly 20 straight hours on my hands and knees looking, first, for that tiny 'u' shaped spring that sits under the crown wheel (which I never found), second, for the ratchet wheel screw (which I never found) and, third, for another screw from another 2846 (this was the OEM MBW movement that died a few months after I got the watch, which I overhauled and was saving to use in my 5514 Comex -- also which I never found), I finally got the watch reassembled before something else happened. And the really strange thing was that, until yesterday, I have never lost a single part. At least, not that I was unable to locate within 30 minutes of searching.

Sheesh. What a nightmare.

[cskent69]

freddy333 - i commend you. I love this hobby and these watches - but i am still a little chicken when it comes to any type of sophisticated movement work (thank god for The Zigmeister). So, here's to you. Can't wait for the pictures. Let us all know what you end up doing about the caseback and dial. Also, i thought that the 1570 didn't work in that case without significant mods.

@Eunomians - we all prefer those silver datewheels.

[freddy333]

cskent -- thank you for the compliment. But, like Ziggy, I had a relative that was a watchmaker and he was my inspiration. Although I have always been mechanically inclined, I have NO special watchmaking skills. If I can do this stuff, anyone (with the time & will to persevere even when you make sometimes costly mistakes) can do it.

[freddy333]

I have exacty the same issue with the datewheel. We are talking very small margins. So I found a solution. The vinyl sticker is flexible so I wrote down which numbers were of center and to what extend. Then I took of the dial and pushed with my finger (a bit dirty so the sticker would look more authentic) on the numbers towards the direction to center. Put the dial back on and tried a full month cycle. There where still off redone the process. Until it was good. Now it is fine. My problem is that the dial pushes the datewheel so sometimes it does not slide that well.

The flat top is sooooo much more beautiful! The MBW default is just to tiny and thin.

Following your guide above and after a 2nd round (and nearly 3 hours) of datewheel wac-a-mole, I think I finally got all of the 31 numbers more or less centered in the date window

However, I discovered something that does not bode well for long-term reliability of either the Watchmeister datewheel sticker or the datechange function on any watch fitted with the Watchmeister -- the adhesive on the bottom side of the sticker is migrating onto the datechange gearing. All over it in fact. What some have reported as the date sometimes 'sticking' due to the tight spacing below the dial may, instead, be the datechange mechanism getting gummed-up in the adhesive. When I removed the datewheel to readjust the Watchmeister sticker, I immediately noticed the adhesive all over everything. I dismantled & cleaned the mechanism with denatured alcohol & then reassembled the datewheel with the readjusted Watchmeister sticker, but I have a strong feeling that the sticker will either slide back out of adjustment again or, worse, gum things up so bad that the datewheel gets stuck requiring another disassembly.

In any case, I would definitely keep an eye on it as I suspect a more permanent datewheel will ultimately prove to be a necessity.

[Guest avitt]

However, I discovered something that does not bode well for long-term reliability of either the Watchmeister datewheel sticker or the datechange function on any watch fitted with the Watchmeister -- the adhesive on the bottom side of the sticker is migrating onto the datechange gearing. All over it in fact. What some have reported as the date sometimes 'sticking' due to the tight spacing below the dial may, instead, be the datechange mechanism getting gummed-up in the adhesive. When I removed the datewheel to readjust the Watchmeister sticker, I immediately noticed the adhesive all over everything. I dismantled & cleaned the mechanism with denatured alcohol & then reassembled the datewheel with the readjusted Watchmeister sticker, but I have a strong feeling that the sticker will either slide back out of adjustment again or, worse, gum things up so bad that the datewheel gets stuck requiring another disassembly.

In any case, I would definitely keep an eye on it as I suspect a more permanent datewheel will ultimately prove to be a necessity.

This is a potential problem with the WM datewheels, as the overlay is larger that the existing metal wheel. I cut a thin ring of paper to cover the adhesive on the overhanging area.

[evildee]

Yikes! What happen to the seconds hand? It looks like it got stuck on something and kept going.

Edited June 4, 2007 by evildee

[docblackrock]

Yikes! What happen to the seconds hand? It looks like it got stuck on something and kept going.

T39 superdome distortion

[freddy333]

This is a potential problem with the WM datewheels, as the overlay is larger that the existing metal wheel. I cut a thin ring of paper to cover the adhesive on the overhanging area.

That is what I did last night (or was it this morning). But the paper kept getting caught under or in some of the guides, so I removed it (though I did not have the patience to test different types & gauges of paper). I wonder how much of the inner diameter of the overlay can be removed (cut off) without being seen through the date window? But that question may prove to be academic because (regardless of what the vendor promised) I am more worried about that adhesive breaking down over the next several months to a year, which would then allow the overlay to slide out of position again. I hope I am wrong.

[freddy333]

hahaha No, the superdome is not quite that bad.

The picture was shot using my scanner (batteries in the camera were dead) and what you see in the photo -- the bending of the second hand -- is the amount of time that passed while the scanner scanned the watch. It is an interesting effect if you do photography with a scanner or with a VERY slow shutter speed, but it confuses alot of people.

[Guest avitt]

That's a pretty interesting phenomenon. I think it would be limited to images captured with a progressive scanner, which sequentially captures from one end to the other (in your case, bottom to top).