Are we in crisis?

[Maikel]

I remember sittin behind my PC for hours looking at those watches from all our dealers.

The topics about the new watches and the ones to look forward to.

Are the good times gone...Josh, Andrew and River...where are those guy's?

Watches that were presented every week by our trusted dealers...really missing those good old days.

Is the rep industry in crisis?

[Victoria]

I remember sittin behind my PC for hours looking at those watches from all our dealers.

The topics about the new watches and the ones to look forward to.

Are the good times gone...Josh, Andrew and River...where are those guy's?

Watches that were presented every week by our trusted dealers...really missing those good old days.

Is the rep industry in crisis?

In transition.

(Also, one spends more time when one is a newbie, for hours and hours in front of one's computer, scrolling, checking, comparing all the reputable collectors' pages. After you get some knowledge, you can instantly pick out the flaws, and therefore, your viewing time is shortened)

Now, I know I didn't say anything anyone else here didn't figure out already, but as someone who is still new to the game, I can say that the rep industry is narrowing in vendor numbers (consolidating), due to strength of product, or elbowing tactics, as any industry tends to.

In the beginning of any free-market enterprise, there are many players, many many products, and a variety of quality to choose from. So, what we're seeing with Andrew, Joshua, and other strong collectors is that they are figuring out their customer base want quality, are willing to pay for it, and are primarily interested in certain models or marques of watches.

Just an opinion, however. I could be dead wrong.

[TeeJay]

I'd hazard a guess, that following this thread, 'collectors' such as Andrew and Joshua are focussing on other forums. The last watch the Cartel tried to showcase here wasn't very well received...

[mezzanine]

The statement is a little dramatic...regardless of whatever shifts may be taking place.

My perspective is that there have been a few factors that have influenced the shift in perception that a whole lot has changed over the last few months.

1) Rep makers are not seeking the advise of the community for the development of reps.

This is the biggest one...and it's also why I feel that what you're describing is a shift in perception, rather than the business itself. If we'd been looking at early sample photos of the new Aquatimer and the new Tag, we wouldn't be having this conversation, as there would've been fodder for our daily visits to RWG etc....

For whatever reason, the makers have deemed it as hurting their bottom line to have that level of participation from our end. Simple as that.

2) There is a law of diminishing returns of watch models that are still left to be repped. Angus mentioned that they're doing a modern 1:1 Seadweller, which represents a re-hashing of an old model. The market for re-hashes is invariably going to be weaker, from a sales standpoint. This is flawed thinking, IMO, on the part of the rep makers.

How much money would the factory that has pumped out the HBB/Cousteau/SFSO, etc.. make if they were to do a 1:1 copy of the vintage rolexes- specifically 1680 and 1665. People have been paying huge premiums to get their MBW's, because that's the only game in town. The MBW's are nice, but there is NO REASON why a smart maker should not be all over the idea of applying their perfectionism to the vintages.

The dials on the red MBW's suck. The white ones aren't a ton better. This would be the biggest $$ maker possible for a smart rep factory, but I think they don't do it, because of how those parts would find their way into the secondary rolex used part market. Making an acrylic crystal that is on spec with the gen would probably outstrip their total sales of some lesser known watches. Get the case backs right. Make the bezel assembly like gen. Charge huge money for them. You could charge HBB money and not have near the production costs, IMO.

[mezzanine]

Another point I would make is that the rep business is most like the technology sector, from a business standpoint.

New models command a price premium because of their use of more sophisticated manufacturing. Just like the newest CPU on the market, the real price premiums have shifted towards the super-reps that are made using a more exacting standard.

Once the factory that makes the super-reps realizes that they can retroactively apply this model to past watches that have come up short , from a gen/rep comparison standpoint, they will move into another phase.

The best SMP we have, sucks....Make another good one, and you'll sell lots. Same goes with the Breitling Chrono Avengers, etc...

I agree with their rationale of going with newer watches...such as the HBB and Cousteau, etc....as they are playing on the sales figures of the genuines to capitalize on the technology-model that they're mimicking along with the real watch industry.

Once they realize that there are some watches that have similar sales "moats" around them (like the vintage rollies), we'll see another "golden era".

Another problem is that the movements have to catch up with the finishing on the new reps. The ETA's are too expensive now, and are on their way out. If you're sticking a Fiero engine into a Ferrari, people aren't stupid, and as a seller you're not going to get full profit potential. Yes, for a long time it has been "out of sight, out of mind" in terms of their sales rationale as an industry. But the problem people have with paying the big $$ for the rose gold/ceramic HBB that Angus listed is that we all know it has a 7750 asian that is not serviced.

Take advantage of Chinese labour. I've said this before, but the factory itself should be paying guys $50 bucks a pop (absolute max) to service their asian movement super reps while they're in production. They are failing to adapt to the new market that they themselves have created by failing to do so. They are undercutting their own margins and sales figures as a result. If I were a maker of super reps, I would pass on that service at cost to the end user.

My HBB, instead of being $400, would be $450 with a serviced movement...and those would be the only ones I'd make. Sometimes it doesn't benefit your bottom line to seek maximum profitability on a per unit basis. Sometimes you increase your profits by selling more volume with a slightly decreased margin, and this is what I believe such a move would result in for the factory.

[Victoria]

The statement is a little dramatic...regardless of whatever shifts may be taking place.

Yes. I didn't want to hurt the members' feelings, though, but it was overstated.

2) There is a law of diminishing returns of watch models that are still left to be repped. Angus mentioned that they're doing a modern 1:1 Seadweller, which represents a re-hashing of an old model. The market for re-hashes is invariably going to be weaker, from a sales standpoint. This is flawed thinking, IMO, on the part of the rep makers.

Real-time replying so I haven't read the rest of your so-far sensible reply, but this point is BANG ON.

It's like they fear the market is saturated, and just reworking old favourites will not bring in new revenue. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

(Similarly, is this why they push out such shoddy goods, with incorrect markings, bad lume, etc. etc. because they feel this is the only way we'll be back to buy more? To get a more "correct" version, the Ultimate version, which as we all know, is hardly EVER that)

I do have to say that one thing that prevents an increase in variety, from this standpoint, is the utter lack of advertising these collectors have at their disposal. Their trade is dangerous legally, and even physically, and so they can't put themselves out there to increase their profits. Emails advertising their site, should they go that route, would be rightfully ignored as spam, 99% of the time.

Sure, you can reply that they don't really need to advertise. That good products have good word-of-mouth.

Perhaps. But that may mean something on the macro level, but not specifically to them.

[TeeJay]

Are folks thinking my suggestion was 'dramatic'?

Look at it this way, Andrew and Joshua have not (to my knowledge) really posted on this forum in quite some time, although Andrew posted on RepGeek to advertise his "member's special" quite recently. I don't think it's a coincidence that their reduced posting has come since Edge's thread, but then again, that's just my opinion and I could be seeing things that aren't there...

[robertk]

Maybe they don't need to post here anymore. Everybody knows where they are. If your visiting their sites regularly you know Josh has new stuff up almost every day.

[TeeJay]

Maybe they don't need to post here anymore. Everybody knows where they are. If your visiting their sites regularly you know Josh has new stuff up almost every day.

That's true, but then again, in terms of 'advertising', their sites are hardly the top results on a google search, and that's why I think they may be 'focussing' more on other forums compared to this one.

[Maikel]

Don't you guy's think that since that PayPal issue started they've been less on the forum...and off course 99% of the sales was through PayPal I believe.

[TomRiddle]

That's true, but then again, in terms of 'advertising', their sites are hardly the top results on a google search, and that's why I think they may be 'focussing' more on other forums compared to this one.

forums such as? -.- the "site circuit" as i like to call it is limited to 4... as far as I know

they don't post anymore because everyone knows where to find their website and the reality is this: So many people lurk and whatnot then go buy these reps that they no longer need to 'advertise' or anything like that

sad but true :X

just look at the latest HBB edition.. from that thread alone you'd think it wouldn't sell a single unit but the pre-orders i was candidly given says otherwise..

someone else mentioned it before.. these sites gets hits by the millions, there's a ton of lurkers and all they need to find is one website and that's it, the entire catalogue of reps is available to them so they know where to go

me.. I kinda am anxiously awaiting "special days" .. "specials days" I missed out on, those threads i dig up and read on about chinese holiday new year specials.. or even better, this coming xmas and see what kinda 'specials' or 'deals' will be available..

I mean shoot, if I can get a black magic for $400ish, I'm so gonna be all over that, lol

[Corgi]

Sometimes rep makers fascinate me. If they devoted resources to simple and obvious things, they could make millions.

1) Improved quality control system. (Or at least a quality control system)

2) Reliable Daytona

3) Better gold appliqu

[Victoria]

Are folks thinking my suggestion was 'dramatic'?

Nooo. Unless you're the thread starter!

@Corgi: EXACTLY. I've often wondered precisely that. Not sure if it's a cultural quirk, or what, but I was teasing Andrew the other day that if only he would get this and that detail right, he could become a gajillionaire. He just LOL'ed back. And he's not bush league, so not sure why they don't act on your and others' suggestions.

[mezzanine]

Sometimes rep makers fascinate me. If they devoted resources to simple and obvious things, they could make millions.

1) Improved quality control system. (Or at least a quality control system)

2) Reliable Daytona

3) Better gold appliqu

[By-Tor]

Do you remember this thread from last January?

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=18650

Things haven't changed much since (considering Rolex). Now they (supposedly) have dramatically improved 16610 and the modern Dweller on the works... but I doubt they can nail it this time, either.

[mezzanine]

Bytor, I just skimmed through the thread from last January, and you were right to have brought attention to the realities of the MBW's...in fact, I may have even gone for one if I hadn't read your 'realistic' review of the red 1680 MBW that you did so long ago. So in that sense, I owe you a personal thank-you for not getting caught up in the culture of the MBW's, and the psychological process of having to alter your valuations based on your level of investment...which we're all guilty of in one form or another.

I think what's happening, and this DOES relate to the original posters comment, is that the "romance" is over, in terms of the reverance that the rep community is willing to give to the dealers and makers. In the pre-super rep dayz, when this was far less an 'industry' and more of a hobby, customers (and our members) were willing to grant certain leniencies on certain aspects of full-disclosure (little white lies...) and with pricing of certain models.

Well, the makers and dealers have changed the dynamic...and not necessarily through their own fault, but also in an effort to give us more of what we crave (accuracy, quality, etc...). We now pay more money for the reps, and as a result, the dynamics of collecting are different. There are more trusted dealers, some even in the US now, and price is the name of the game now. Guess what? It's [censored]-for-tat. You want to charge $800 bucks for an asian movement HBB? don't expect your customer base to give you the same benefit of the doubt when it comes for letting the 'little things' slide.

I think part of the problem is that the super-rep factory is too far removed from their customer base. I think we could impact that if we organized some sort of boycott, but they bank on the notion that it would be impossible. Looking at the pre-order for the HBB rose-gold/ceramic would seem to be evidence enough. I'm just personally frustrated. And I don't even blame the dealers. From what I gather, they represent a minority demographic of the factory's production. Not an insignificant minority, mind you, and I still think that there may end up being something of a move away from the price-gouging that some of these models represent.

In terms of the comments about the Rolex stuff, there's a logic gap here...you've got to admit. There HAS to be an explanation that we're not picking up on, but that the rep-makers are cognizant of, and is influencing them to avoid putting the same level of care into their Rolex reproductions. Maybe the MBW suppliers bought off someone, somewhere? I dunno...

I don't expect them to be able to get all of the models right. But even the most basic of businessmen, and we're assuredly dealing with some folk who are very good business people, as evidenced by their service and ability to select good models for "super reps"- would be able to see the potential market for the vintages.

Could it be the potential for the secondary used parts market to get flooded with clones of parts? It's already happened with the superdomes, has it not? Clark's or whatever are aftermarket parts that fit the gens and are 90% there. Maybe we underestimate the Rolex engineers? And they've really been able to built quality into their watches by making the reproductions very difficult?

I might buy that if I didn't own a Big Bang and a Cousteau (as well as most of the other best reps at one point or another).

[Rxus]

i highly admore the wise words from the watch veetrans.

But to add my 2 cents, I am pretty certain there is a valid reason behind the lack of attention to such watches as the Daytona the SD's and the vintage stuff. It could be as simple as fear from the gen makers crashing down on their parade. or as sophisticated as not wanting to disassemble the money maker known as MBW.

COnsidering they have made incredible reps of much less popular watches we would only be fooling ourselves by thinking they have overlooked the potential of 1:1 Rolex watches

So if it ever happens great..but I wouldfn't hold my breath for it.

[mezzanine]

i highly admore the wise words from the watch veetrans.

But to add my 2 cents, I am pretty certain there is a valid reason behind the lack of attention to such watches as the Daytona the SD's and the vintage stuff. It could be as simple as fear from the gen makers crashing down on their parade. or as sophisticated as not wanting to disassemble the money maker known as MBW.

COnsidering they have made incredible reps of much less popular watches we would only be fooling ourselves by thinking they have overlooked the potential of 1:1 Rolex watches

So if it ever happens great..but I wouldfn't hold my breath for it.

Well, if they haven't done it yet, then I am forced to agree that the probability of it ever happening is not great.

However, the reality that there's a 1:1 Seadweller in the works suggests to me that there isn't a prohibition on the selection of Rolex's for super-rep production.

At least the modern ones. And I would argue that the modern subs are replicated well enough...if not to the same exact standards as some of the best ones.

Then there's the fact that the MBW's seem to have seen an increase in their availability- with Neil being able to offer them in limited quantities...and the folklore of sourcing them no longer is a good front for their 'exclusivity' and therefore their prices.

I don't buy any conspiracy theories...I think that any factory would love to have the market that would be available to whomever replicates 1:1 the vintages. The only conspiracy theory I *might* buy, would be that Rolex has told the factories that they'll come in and shut down any such attempt, ala the "old factory" 007's.

[By-Tor]

@mezzanine: You nailed it. Well said.

But one thing: when people complain about the increased prices we have to remember that some reps are in completely different level, accuracy wise... compared what we got 2 years ago. UPO is virtually perfect, save the lack of front AR. TAG Link has some minor dial inaccuracies, mainly hour markers that aren't 100% aligned (loupe stuff). And then we got the Steelfish, BCE, Cousteau, etc. etc.

I don't have first-hand experience of the BCE, but the Steelfish is just amazing. No, it's holy-f**king-s*hit-amazing. While the price ratio between rep/gen isn't great, it's still 5 times cheaper than the genuine... and visually and technically "almost" the same watch (save the lack of QC). You have to be completely paranoid if you think someone would ever "call you out" on that watch.

About those Rolex reps... I have a feeling that something is happening with the Rolexes soon. Dealers are still introducing new and absolutely CRAP models of them... but like that old thread stated the membership isn't buying that medicore stuff anymore. I find that WM9 16610 WIP interesting. It's certain that the factory isn't doing that for George exclusively. Don't waste your money... and wait.

I think the new standard of "super reps" have changed us (as buyers) too. We are much more demanding than before. Now that I look back at some of my old reviews... if I had to write them again and "update" them, they would be way more critical and negative. Take my CN GMT Master II for example... it was a fine rep back then (2+ years ago), but if that watch came out today, the membership (including me) would trash it. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice and good quality rep, but now it has to be compared against the likes of SFSO and Cousteau. Joshua and Andrew are still selling that model for a premium. I guess that base rep model is at least 3-4 years old, which of course makes the comparison a bit unfair.

Same with the old Serie Speciale Navitimer writeup I once wrote. That kind of inaccuracies were the "standard" back then... not long ago actually... maybe a year and a half ago or so. Part of the hobby was just to accept those flaws. Things have changed fast... members' attitudes too.

Personally, I'm not complaining about small price increases if the general quality and accuracy keeps improving. But trying to sell [censored] for a premium isn't going to work anymore. At least not here in the forums.

I don't see this community being in any kind of crisis, especially when the reps that keep coming are visually better than ever. What people should do is to just stop buying from the f*cking dropshippers. Or at least stop complaining about the constant QC problems if they buy from them. How difficult this is to understand, I wonder... buying from trusted members is much better alternative, even. If the watch has a few scratches here and there from a regular wear, so what... most problems in reps appear almost immediately after the purchase, and if a member has used the watch for a few weeks (or months) the watch is most likely going to survive the next several years without any major problems too. A few weeks/months use by a member...that's your QC there. Just stick with the trusted guys and seasoned members, and you'll be fine. I haven't done even ONE member trade that hasn't been satisfactory.

PS: About that "Super Sea Dweller". I'm not convinced at all. I haven't seen decent pics of the watch, but it has absolutely laughable winding crown for starters. I'm pretty sure they'll f*ck up the casework and crystal/rehaut too... it looked conical and ugly in the pics. It could be just the pics though, the jury is still out on that. I tried to post to both of those wip threads (that Richard Brown started) at RWI and TRC... and offer Angus some advice and request for better shots, but he has completely ignored both threads. Don't hold your breath.

Edited July 30, 2007 by By-Tor

[predfan2001]

It would be interesting to know how many orders Silix has had for the new line. I'd guess most of the orders have been by members here. There darned thread has been going on forever and I've already placed my order.

If the rep makers were listening, I'd like to let them know to come out with a few "odd" vintage models. I know that if somebody introduced a vintage nodate Tudor Sub., there would be tons of orders from here alone. Maybe even an Omega 300 diving watch. The possibilities are endless.

[TomRiddle]

I don't see this community being in any kind of crisis, especially when the reps that keep coming are visually better than ever. What people should do is to just stop buying from the f*cking dropshippers. How difficult this is to understand, I wonder... buying from trusted members is much better alternative, even. If the watch has a few scratches here and there from a regular wear, so what... most problems in reps appear almost immediately after the purchase, and if a member has used the watch for a few weeks (or months) the watch is most likely going to survive the next several years without any major problems too.

I agree By-Tor.. btw you were my introduction to the "site circuit" as I like to call it..

I'm an info truth seeker.. I do a ton of raw information digesting before making "informed decisions" and I just wanted to point that out

hxxp://www.replicawatchesreviews.com/replica-grades.html

that's where I started from yes, the dreaded "Grades", lol

A quick summary of the grades of the replica watches available, include:

Grade 1A Swiss Replica Watches (Triple AAA+ grade)

Grade 1B Swiss Replica Watches (A+ grade)

Grade 1A Japanese Replica watches

Grade 1B Japanese Replica watches

Asian Replica watches

anyhows there was a point to my reply and that was that I agree.. I don't think 'the scene' is in danger at all besides skyrocketing prices ACROSS THE BOARD. No, it's not just the HBB people.. you realize the HBB is like 2 PAMs? or just like $100 bucks more or so than an AP? or some reps are being sold for $1000-2000 with the so-called bling bling (are you people bloody insane?! $2000?! whose buying these!) etc etc.. prices are rising more and more except for the Rolexes but that's because there's bulk buyers out there from the masses for Rollies

personally, I think we're entering a "golden age" of reps wherein unheard of models/brands are being replicated with frightening accuracy.. it's gonna get better.. I know I for one am anxiously awaiting the stuff I missed out on last year.. the chinese new year specials.. who knows what happened during XMAS/New year/the holiday season.. what kinda sales and feeding frenzy was out here..

yea, I don't think we in trouble at all besides the price ^^ I for one can't wait to see what the future holds..

...that is unless reps get to become so good that the gen brands forcibly somehow someway shut them down.. I mean, look at the reaction of the Hublot CEO who is in disbelief that the HBB's being rep'd

[mezzanine]

@mezzanine: You nailed it. Well said.

But one thing: when people complain about the increased prices we have to remember that some reps are in completely different level, accuracy wise... compared what we got 2 years ago. UPO is virtually perfect, save the lack of front AR. TAG Link has some minor dial inaccuracies, mainly hour markers that aren't 100% aligned (loupe stuff). And then we got the Steelfish, BCE, Cousteau, etc. etc.

I don't have first-hand experience of the BCE, but the Steelfish is just amazing. No, it's holy-f**king-s*hit-amazing. While the price ratio between rep/gen isn't great, it's still 5 times cheaper than the genuine... and visually and technically "almost" the same watch (save the lack of QC). You have to be completely paranoid if you think someone would ever "call you out" on that watch.

About those Rolex reps... I have a feeling that something is happening with the Rolexes soon. Dealers are still introducing new and absolutely CRAP models of them... but like that old thread stated the membership isn't buying that medicore stuff anymore. I find that WM9 16610 WIP interesting. It's certain that the factory isn't doing that for George exclusively.

I think the new standard of "super reps" have changed us (as buyers) too. We are much more demanding than before. Now that I look back at some of my old reviews... if I had to write them again and "update" them, they would be way more critical and negative. Take my CN GMT Master II for example... it was a fine rep back then (2+ years ago), but if that watch came out today, the membership (including me) would trash it. Joshua and Andrew are still selling that model for a premium. I guess that base rep model is at least 3-4 years old.

Same with the old Serie Speciale Navitimer writeup I once wrote. That kind of inaccuracies were the "standard" back then... not long ago actually... maybe a year or so. Part of the hobby was just to accept those flaws. Things have changed fast.

Personally, I'm not complaining about small price increases if the general quality and accuracy keeps improving too. But trying to sell [censored] for a premium isn't going to work anymore. At least not here in the forums.

I don't see this community being in any kind of crisis, especially when the reps that keep coming are visually better than ever. What people should do is to just stop buying from the f*cking dropshippers. How difficult this is to understand, I wonder... buying from trusted members is much better alternative, even. If the watch has a few scratches here and there from a regular wear, so what... most problems in reps appear almost immediately after the purchase, and if a member has used the watch for a few weeks (or months) the watch is most likely going to survive the next several years without any major problems too.

PS: About that "Super Sea Dweller". I'm not convinced at all. I haven't seen decent pics of the watch, but it has absolutely laughable looking winding crown for starters. I'm pretty sure they'll f*ck up the casework and crystal/rehaut too. I tried to post to both of those wip threads at RWI and TRC, and offer Angus some advice but he has completely ignored both threads. Don't hold your breath.

By-Tor, you made a solid point on the fact that this is a two-way relationship, in terms of the impact that we have on the market itself. That's why I'm always feeling pulled in two directions at once, whenever I find myself getting annoyed with some of the 'new realities' of the changed market place. I don't blame the dealers for the new market dynamics...and as a result, I try to guard against mis-placed aggression, in terms of voicing some of the frustration.

There's no question that there are WAY more "research and development" costs associated with the newer models. As a result of that, there's going to be costs that are passed onto us that are less tangible, in terms of trying to rationalize them within the old framework of how value used to be evaluated.

Where I find I still end up getting irritated, is when I see the SFSO asian offered for $139 shipped, and I hear the explanation for the difference in cost between the asian and swiss as "the cost of ETA's have skyrocketted" and the AR is so much more money, etc... It's the fact that the logic is inconsistent that ends up causing me to think that the very legit reasons for the increase in price is NOT based on the added R&D costs or the increased accuracy, etc... and are attempts to create a marketing strategy akin to the introduction of new watches in the gen world. Is the "new" gen SMP worth more than the older one? Nope....but it is "new", and carries a price premium as a result.

It's funny, cause I used to argue the exact opposite of what I'm arguing now. I used to say that "the new super-reps are categorically different than anything that's been released, and has higher production costs". But if I look back, like what you're saying you were doing by looking at some of your old reviews, and how they would be perceived now...is that the improvements that were made to those models- let's take the Tag Link Chrono, for example, or even the uPO, were just as "new" in terms of requiring additional manufacturing costs and all that...and represented a similar degree of departure from the previous generations, in terms of added costs to make them.

Now, just as with technology, there is a higher base platform for reference. I remember when my 486 computer was a huge leap over the 386's....but guess what? The pentium's were no more an exception to the rule, when they were getting their price premium in the new marketplace than the 486's were. I'm suggesting that it's a cognitive issue, whereby we're more inclined to believe that the super-reps are really a departure from the previous industry of replica watches. I'm suggesting that it is a departure, but more in terms of the price dynamic and the expansion of the 'industry' with increased popularity and technology.

The difference in the rep world, is that uPO's, or the Tag Link Chronos, commanded a % increase over the previous generation that was (for the sake of argument) 25%. Now, the super reps have closer to a 100% mark up over the previous generation of watches...and I would argue that the asian SFSO is case and point. Maybe 50%. If you start looking at this in terms of percentages, I think the reality hits home more dramatically. In terms of 'x' amount of dollars, the difference for most of us between $250 and $350 doesn't jump out as significantly.

But when you look at the fact that there is also a qualitative jump, when you get beyond a certain 'threshold', I think that's the best evidence for a real sign that there has been a change in pricing, regardless of quality. The threshold has been raised. What was previously a baseline, is no longer, and I'm not convinced it is related to production costs.

Then again, the BCE is a good value, and is in line with releases from the past, and the premiums they commanded. Same with the uPO, etc..so you might be right about this after all. My bias would've been to agree with you, and was for a time, but the internal logic breaks down, if you put it under the magnifying glass. If they can sell the BCE's, with AR, and 1:1 status, for under three hundred....then the ridiculous premiums on the HBB's, etc.... stop following the logic they put forward themselves for their increased prices.

It's completely market driven...the pricing. I honest-to-god believe that if we didn't buy them at these prices, that they would come down to reasonable margins. The Chinese realized that they could get North American consumers to pay North American prices for watches that they could make using Chinese costs...and simply increase their margins.

What I've posed as a challenge to the Chinese makers is this:

Let us take advantage of Chinese labour and costs in a manner that will ultimately benefit their bottom lines. Get the asian 7750's serviced in the factory and pass the additional cost onto us at cost.

The SFSO is case and point. We'll pay twice the price for the ETA version because we know it will last. Ultimately their industry is going to have to move away from the ETA's. Segway out of it by servicing the asian movements as part of the production, and people won't scream bloody murder when you charge $800 for the new HBB. I think the anger is about the potential to end up with a paper weight at the cost of a gen....more than the irritation about getting price gouged for the ceramic/rose-gold.

In terms of the Rolex's....I got no explanation for it. There's nothing about the machining of those watches that strikes me as hard to replicate...although perhaps they're SO highly scrutinized because of their legendary status that the minor discrepancies are magnified in our perceptions. Even the SFSO has differences that are probably similar in magnitude to those of the rolex's, it's just that they're more 'tolerable' since the model is less popular and cannonized.

Get out the CAD programs, and get the gen dimensions into the machining computers....that's one way around it. I mean, the MBW's are fine on that level, and I'm certain that they are not done using CAD, etc....

[By-Tor]

I agree about the points you made about Link and BCE... and HBB too. Looks like the HBB is ridiculously overpriced. Good rep, yes, but according to Ziggy there's nothing that would make it "stand above" others... technically.

And I hear you about the Rolex being so popular and closely scrutinized. But once again: the best modern Rolex rep sports case is the 10 years old TW best/MBW case. There's absolutely no excuse for this. The sports Rolexes (Subs and GMT's) are NOT in the same level with the SFSO... they have fundamental flaws that the SFSO doesn't possess. The case and rehaut look SO wrong (save the TW case), it's almost sad. Those TW models have bad dials... and modding a decent modern Rolex costs a ton.

The black ExpII with correct hand stack (the rare rep version that bklm has) might be close to SFSO accuracy out of box, but none of the others (imho). Not even close... and a $100 Noobmariner still takes the cake of being the "best compromise". Sad.

Edited July 30, 2007 by By-Tor

[mezzanine]

The more I think about the Rolex situation, the more I think that the reason we haven't seen the same exacting standards is because the average rep buyer wants their rolex, and isn't going to be highly discriminating about the details due to their lower level of knowledge and interest in reps generally.

That allows the rep makers to get away with taking a less nuanced approach to production, because their biggest factor on rolex's is volume. The relatively smaller % that are concerned with minute accuracy are the minority, and aren't as big a consideration to the big picture.

Now, if you look at the specialty watches like the Cousteau or HBB, they better be exact, because the market that is going to represent the majority of the sales are, by definition, watch enthusiasts. Their willingness to pay the premiums for the exact copies are a function of the accuracy of the reps. Rolex has enough market appeal to the average Joe, that the level of consideration for perfecting what is already available and cheap to make is not signficant enough to justify the outlay of cost.

[sam_tgg]

I read/writte in an spanish forum. There is no interest at all in spain for rolexes. at least in most young people, as rolex is been look as old, rich, and bling-bling gitanos watch. I think this happend in most of europeans countries, but speciallz in those which bad replicas are easy to be found in street markets, and who the people have united them to richt no-class people, and false crap.

So, what ever is in the forums a "crysis" post, the people start to ask why there is not a good rolex coming, the MBW is the only ones, etc. Very interesting reading, and I really like it. But I would like to see how much of the people in the boards, is really interested in new Rolex, and specially europeans.

In times when we see, from last year to know, so many IWC, APs, Breitlings coming, whith this kind of level, it is really a crysis?

Do really someone think that if they improve the QC the chinese are going to sell more watches? really?