"All replica watches are the same."

[BobM]

I have seen quotes from one of our very respected members that "All repilca watches are the same." I don't think so.

I am a new kid on the block and I have no right, really, to challenge any member here, but that statement just doesn't ring true and whether it is or not is central to the pursuit of the truth about replica watches. That pursuit of truth about replica watches ... more generally, about replica watches offered across the internet is why I am here.

My objective in starting this topic is to provoke a serious discussion about the range of quality level of replicas, the identification of elements of quality in a replica, and how to make the correct decision about a replica watch one might buy. And ... along the way to debunk the terrible cesspool of lies and untruth in which the replica market swims.

Let me start this way: What are the elements of quality that one wants to evaluate when selecting a replica watch? I suggest those include at lest these:

1. The movement - A watch is a time piece. The movement is the core of the watch that delivers that functionality. The watch may not have to be accurate to the second over a month, but it needs to keep time reasonably and be of sufficient quality of design and manufacture that it will deliver reasonable time for at least a few years, preferrably decades ... even in a replica.

2. The fidelity of replication - how faithfully does it mimic the appearance and feel of the genuine item from which its appearance is derived.

3. The materials of which it is made - The materials must faithfully emulate the materilas from which the genuine item is made and be of sufficient quality as to maintain that faithful emulation for the life of the replica, which perhaps is not expected to be a long as the lfe of the genuine item.

4. The general quality of manufacture - that pieces go together the way they are supposed to and fit the way they are supposed to and represent a reasonable commitment by the manufacturer to produce the best quality product possible in the context of the manufacturing environment available ... representing a realization that customer satisfaction pays off even in the replicat watch business.

These few elements of quality do not seem to me to be so demanding but might provide a basis for discussion. Or, am I expecting too much?

Now ... if all replica watches were the same ... identical ... then that would imply that all replica watches are made by one factory. I have seen serious estimates that the world-wide replica watch market totals about 2.6 billion U.S. dollars (or maybe that is only the Rolex watch portion of the replilica market). In any case, the market is estimated to be HUGE! Even if the market were one 10th that estimcated size it would be a $260 million market. Does anybody believe that a market of even that size would be served by ony one supplier? No way! I have no idea how many different replica watch manufacturers there are in the world but it must be in the many dozens or hundreds. If there are two competitors making replicas for this market then replica watches are NOT all the same!

The discussion on this forum screams of the differences among replicas. The spectacular article by one our members who visited the Giengzhou (SP?) watch market dramatically tells of so much difference among the watches offered there, implying many different manufacturers, each offering a different product - each of a different quality.

This forum seems mainly (almost exclusively) to discuss watches from China. But we know there are at least some watches made elsewhere ... Thailand? I have heard folks say replicas are also made in Taiwan. There are watches which are touted the be Swiss made (yes, I know that is surely a lie), made in Japan, watches using Italian movements, swiss movements, japanese movements, Chinese movements.

The point is there is a vast range of replica watches offered, and to choose from - at least, if you believe any of the deafening stream of marketing palaver one encounters once you start looking for a replica watch. When you add to that the minefield of lies and half-truths through which we repliica watch illiterates must naviagate before we can make intelligent choices ... Why, it is just a mightmare!

I am so glad to have found this forum where there are knowledgeable and truthfull folks who will standup to tell it like it is. ... But I digress.

I hope some will chime in to offer ideas about elements of quality I have not thought of, and offer comments about the variety we novices face, and generally to offer enlightenment to those of us who hunger for your counsel.

Later I will try to summarize the discussion from this topic. Then I will split out each element of quality - one at a time - as separate topics "In Search of highest quality - ".

I am happy to be a member here. I hope y'aal have a great day!

[Nebakanezzar]

LOL, I will assume your heart is in the right place, but all this info and more is already available to all members...all you have to do is use the search button...

[FasTTaP]

You got to admit that the guy obviously used the search button before posting, no doubts about that.

[Pugwash]

I have seen quotes from one of our very respected members that "All repilca watches are the same." I don't think so.

When this phrase is used, it's used in response to "Whose Ultimate PO is better, Josh's or Trusty's?" or "Who has the best TAG Link?"

It's like saying "All ducks are the same" when all the duck sellers get them from the same source. Whoever you get your duck from has access to the same ducks as anyone else. Obviously, all the ducks have different quacks, featheriness and bill features, but essentially, they're the same ducks.

[jdavis]

Bob, you must understand that the replica industry is shady and illegal enterprise. Factories are often back rooms filled with women and children that can be pulled up and relocated quickly to avoid detection by authorities. Quality control isn't something that can be addressed in the board room because it doesn't exist in a controlled environment such as a plant setting. You are dealing with a cottage industry where components are delivered to many small "shops" for final assembly.

Your items 1 through 4 sound like a business plan to set up a replica manufacturing business. Sadly, as good as it seems, the plan will not fly because of the type of business that it is. I don't think that replica producers are worried so much about producing a quality product as are the dealers who must sell and provide some degree of customer service. Money is the primary concern, therefore, the more product and faster it is produced the more profit. In that this is a highly illegal industry and so much money is to be made, corruption also enters the picture. It has been suggested that there is a cartel that now regulates the price structure for many of the dealers. I understand that one of our respected dealers had admitted to this fact.

The reason that you have discovered that the replica discussions center around China is because it is the giant player in this market. I would guess that China produces well over 90% of the replicas. There are other Asian countries such as Taiwan, that produce smaller quantities of watches and other counterfeit goods. In spite of what you may have read on the scam sites, no replicas are made in Switzerland or Italy. Generally speaking, a Swiss replica is an Asian replica with a Swiss ETA movement (ETA does have plants in Asia). These movements are of good quality and will last many years with the proper maintenance. Asian movements are also used in many of the same replicas as the Swiss movements allowing for lower cost to the buyer. I have no knowledge of Italian movements being used in replicas.

There is no perfect replica, they all have their flaws. As a buyer, you must select the product that you want then seek a dealer that you feel can supply the best product to you. Ask questions and express you doubts and expectations to your dealer before you invest.

[gridlock1983]

Apart from my mate brian.

He gets those super ducks you've read about in the papers. you can mod them and everything like original. He's got a mallard with a Gen beak and Gen feet. from a couple of metres away you'd think it was real.

[ryyannon]

Gen or rep?

[BobM]

[i woke up in the middle of the night, realizing there are two more elements of quality (specifically of the buying experience) that I have failed to capture:

5. Business practices of the dealer - Warranty, return policy, service, customer support, etc. And, I have heard, some delers make great representatons but, of course, if they don't live up to those representations, they are of no value.

6. Price - Buying a watch at a fair price is all one should ask, I think, The dealer has to be able to make a profit to be motivated to stay in business, to be able to service that buyer and others. But the buyer doesn't want to get "taken" either. Sorting out how much to pay for waht is important in the pursuit of highest quality.

Now, I have been accussed of failiing to already find all this information on this forum and be done with it. I have studied the past several months of posting of general discussion, I have processed every posting over the past several months in certain areas of special interest. I do know there is a mountain of great information on this forum, and maybe most of what I am talking about is already out there, in the stacks (I hope so!). And, I acknowledge I surely have not yet learned exactly how to use all of the facilities of this forum effectively (I will learn. And, I have tried out the search button ) But what I am trying to achieve is to collect up some of the mountain of infromation into tidy 'piles' more easuly found by others who may be out there still struggling to find this information, and in the process maybe learn some things. I certainly know only a very little of what the good members of this forum know. I have been studying these issues - hard! - for the past several months. I am hoping to draw on the excellent knowledge and experience of the foks on this forum. I believe my objectives to be useful and productive.

I want to be a good contributor to this forum. You may chide me for stupidity. You may scold me for a breach of ettiquette. I can handle that and learn from it. But I am not going away ... unless I am espressly asked to do so ... because I believe the memebrs of this forum have information valuable to me, and I believe - over time - I can make a useful contribution to the forum.

Looking forward to your responses. And a GREAT day to you, too, sir!

[Pugwash]

I want to be a good contributor to this forum. You may chide me for stupidity. You may scold me for a breach of ettiquette. I can handle that and learn from it. But I am not going away ... unless I am espressly asked to do so ... because I believe the memebrs of this forum have information valuable to me, and I believe - over time - I can make a useful contribution to the forum.

Superb response.

I thought your research definitely showed through, but lack of experience started you off in the wrong direction. One thing your post doesn't take into account is the post-communist Chinese psyche. Unfortunately, the far-eastern work ethic has a lot more drive in our hobby than I'd like.

[BobM]

When this phrase is used, it's used in response to "Whose Ultimate PO is better, Josh's or Trusty's?" or "Who has the best TAG Link?"

Yes, that is pretty much as it does seem to me, in reality. But, as best I can tell, the replica wold is larger than just Josh and Trusty (Not that they are not the ultimate best folks to deal with.) I appreciate you helpful comment. Thanks.

[By-Tor]

Yes, that is pretty much as it does seem to me, in reality. But, as best I can tell, the replica wold is larger than just Josh and Trusty (Not that they are not the ultimate best folks to deal with.) I appreciate you helpful comment. Thanks.

Yep. The "high end" reps that we access here are probably 1-2% of the whole replica market (MAX). That's just my rough estimation/guess though.

We only have the high-end rep dealers here, because it would be useless to push standard street junk for our membership. The target buyer group for expensive reps is limited. Only a WIS could appreciate the things and details that we demand (and consider a standard). You think an average Joe could see any difference between ANY of the ETA Submariners from our dealers?

[BobM]

Bob, you must understand that the replica industry is shady and illegal enterprise.

That I understand. ... a subject for a whole different discussion, but a good point which I will have to take into account .

Factories are often back rooms filled with women and children that can be pulled up and relocated quickly to avoid detection by authorities. Quality control isn't something that can be addressed in the board room because it doesn't exist in a controlled environment such as a plant setting. You are dealing with a cottage industry where components are delivered to many small "shops" for final assembly.

Interesting. and another good point. Thak you.

Your items 1 through 4 sound like a business plan to set up a replica manufacturing business. Sadly, as good as it seems, the plan will not fly because of the type of business that it is. I don't think that replica producers are worried so much about producing a quality product as are the dealers who must sell and provide some degree of customer service. Money is the primary concern, therefore, the more product and faster it is produced the more profit. In that this is a highly illegal industry and so much money is to be made, corruption also enters the picture. It has been suggested that there is a cartel that now regulates the price structure for many of the dealers. I understand that one of our respected dealers had admitted to this fact.

Thank you. This point is one that I will treat later. You do make the excellent point the the deler's role and impact in this 'industry' may be more significant than in more traditional industries. Interesting point.

Oh, and as to the 'business plan' thing ... that is just a reflection of the way I think. Hang in there with me, please. That way of thinking - for me - just establishes a framework for further elaboration.

The reason that you have discovered that the replica discussions center around China is because it is the giant player in this market. I would guess that China produces well over 90% of the replicas. There are other Asian countries such as Taiwan, that produce smaller quantities of watches and other counterfeit goods. In spite of what you may have read on the scam sites, no replicas are made in Switzerland or Italy. Generally speaking, a Swiss replica is an Asian replica with a Swiss ETA movement (ETA does have plants in Asia). These movements are of good quality and will last many years with the proper maintenance. Asian movements are also used in many of the same replicas as the Swiss movements allowing for lower cost to the buyer. I have no knowledge of Italian movements being used in replicas.

There is no perfect replica, they all have their flaws. As a buyer, you must select the product that you want then seek a dealer that you feel can supply the best product to you. Ask questions and express you doubts and expectations to your dealer before you invest.

Thank you, very much, for you good contribution to this discussion.

[BobM]

Superb response.

I thought your research definitely showed through, but lack of experience started you off in the wrong direction. One thing your post doesn't take into account is the post-communist Chinese psyche. Unfortunately, the far-eastern work ethic has a lot more drive in our hobby than I'd like.

Pug, your kindly patience always shows through in your posts! Thanks.

" ...the far-eastern work ethic has a lot more drive in our hobby than I'd like." I don't understand, please elaborate.

[Pugwash]

Yes, that is pretty much as it does seem to me, in reality. But, as best I can tell, the replica wold is larger than just Josh and Trusty (Not that they are not the ultimate best folks to deal with.) I appreciate you helpful comment. Thanks.

I don't buy from Josh and Trusty and I don't think they'd sell to me anyway, but that's a different story.

I used them as an example merely because they're the most common query.

[BobM]

Yep. The "high end" reps that we access here are probably 1-2% of the whole replica market (MAX). That's just my rough estimation/guess though.

We only have the high-end rep dealers here, because it would be useless to push standard street junk for our membership. The target buyer group for expensive reps is limited. Only a WIS could appreciate the things and details that we demand (and consider a standard). You think an average Joe could see any difference between ANY of the ETA Submariners from our dealers?

Well, that is why I am so glad to have found y'all. "WIS" ?? Sorry, I don't undersatnd the jargon.

I am sure you are correct that the "average Joe" cannot see the difference, but the average Joe surely does want to buy the same high quality product you are able to decern. He just doesn't know how. He is the one who needs help the most. That "average Joe" is me.

[FxrAndy]

As Pugwash said that phrase is used whn people discuss the products from certain dealers, we all know that there are many different reps from the quartz rolex you canpick up from a bloke on the beach to a couple of $ to the super(priced) reps like the SFSO all the way up to the solid gold iced out franken reps with gen movements. We also know there are many diferent factorys some will have a gen line of watches in rolex/pam or what ever form and will have and illegal side assembly line do ing the reps in great volume, just have a look here now if that factory is not making named vesions of that watch they must be stupid!

but on to your point

The movement yes they should be good and they all can be wht is lacking even in the ETA on a lot of occasions is proper servicing and QC, you standard 21j asian if properley assembeled and oiled will last years and also the chronos.

The case material, we all know that rolex does not use asi 316 stainless but a higher grade that has a differnt shean but also is harder to work so the reps are in the easeir and cheeper 316 steel.

The one thing that 99% of reps are missing is quality control.

[Pugwash]

" ...the far-eastern work ethic has a lot more drive in our hobby than I'd like." I don't understand, please elaborate.

Our replicas are almost exclusively built in China (Ok, some in Taiwan, but China would have you believe that's part of China - Chinese Taipei - as it is) and the way of doing business there is not at all the same as ours. You can't expect customer service, quality control or honesty as those are simply alien concepts.

If you've ever tried doing business in a far-eastern culture, you'll see that they will make hollow promises they never intend to keep or they will blatantly mislead you, expecting you to know that it's just a negotiation. It's not done with malice at all, but it's just the way they do business. As for the work, quality control isn't something that comes naturally to a Chinese worker. When they're paid on units produced and not on working units produced to a set standard, you will get a very variable output. This is apparently a hang over from the communist-controlled factories where production was set to targets not results.

[Pugwash]

Well, that is why I am so glad to have found y'all. "WIS" ?? Sorry, I don't undersatnd the jargon.

Watch Idiot Savant. Silly term, but we're stuck with it.

[FasTTaP]

The one thing that 99% of reps are missing is quality control.

This is where the dealer comes into account.

If you choose crefully your dealer, he will either provide quality control (think TTK) or after sales service if you received a defective watch (happend once with King, she send another one right away).

This can explain the price difference between dealers, not to mention delays (TTK for example does an intensive QC on his watch, so there's no way you'll get it in a few days).

QC is typicaly a dealer problem (I remember a thread on the subject telling with dealer did a QC and witch did not...)

[jfreeman420]

the pursuit of the truth about replica watches.

A replica is a lie to begin with. There is not much truth in an industry predicated on a product that is a blatent lie.

Don't take this hobby too seriously. Your long winded post sounds like you are researching a major purchase of a fortune 500 company for hundreds of millions of dollars. Keep it simple. It is what it is and a replica is only a replica. Buy what you like and don't expect too much from it. If you need all of what you are asking for from a watch purchase, buy a genuine.

This hobby is fun and I see these watches as conversation pieces and novelties. It makes me happy to be part of a community that shares the same interests and is filled with wonderful people. The watches are a bonus.

Chill out, relax and buy something. Make your first purchase for around $200 so if you are dissapointed it won't be a major loss. Then once you recieve that package and slap the shiny new Submariner on your wrist, feel free to break out the digital calipers and start measuring the distance between tic marks.

[Raijor]

A replica is a lie to begin with. There is not much truth in an industry predicated on a product that is a blatent lie.

Don't take this hobby too seriously. Your long winded post sounds like you are researching a major purchase of a fortune 500 company for hundreds of millions of dollars. Keep it simple. It is what it is and a replica is only a replica. Buy what you like and don't expect too much from it. If you need all of what you are asking for from a watch purchase, buy a genuine.

This hobby is fun and I see these watches as conversation pieces and novelties. It makes me happy to be part of a community that shares the same interests and is filled with wonderful people. The watches are a bonus.

Chill out, relax and buy something. Make your first purchase for around $200 so if you are dissapointed it won't be a major loss. Then once you recieve that package and slap the shiny new Submariner on your wrist, feel free to break out the digital calipers and start measuring the distance between tic marks.

Amen Very well said - Cheers

[Corgi]

The rep dealers should hire some American quality control assurance experts and ship them over to the bigger factories, hoping that their influence will cause a change in the continuous stream of damaged, non-working or faulty watches being shipped out.

Nobody here can tell me they had a smile on their face when the $250 watch they ordered came with some kind of small, minute but painfully obvious and easily avoidable flaw like dust under the glass, a blemish on the face, or the entire bracelet covered in some kind of disgusting oil.

[Pugwash]

The rep dealers should hire some American quality control assurance experts and ship them over to the bigger factories, hoping that their influence will cause a change in the continuous stream of damaged, non-working or faulty watches being shipped out.

Never going to happen. It would double the cost of our watches, for a start.

Don't forget these are counterfeit goods and any westerner would require a western criminal salary; more than an entire factory of Chinese labourers.

[jfreeman420]

Unfortunately I do not have much confidence in many US made products even with the quality control. We are not a country known for durable products except for maybe Craftsman tools. The American auto industy especially doesn't have the best track record historically.

[BobM]

A replica is a lie to begin with. There is not much truth in an industry predicated on a product that is a blatent lie.

I have certainly learned that to be too true.

Don't take this hobby too seriously. Your long winded post sounds like you are researching a major purchase of a fortune 500 company for hundreds of millions of dollars. Keep it simple.

Not in my nature. When I get into something like this I am in "whole hog", at least until I achieve a certain targeted level of understanding. Indeed, for me the pleasure is in the pursuit of understanding. Have patience with me. We all are satisfying our own separate requirements.

It is what it is and a replica is only a replica.

Seeems to me I have heard that sage statement somewhere else.

Buy what you like and don't expect too much from it.

Ah, but we all try to do the best we can and, for me, that sets a very high standard. Just part of the pleasure of pursuit.

If you need all of what you are asking for from a watch purchase, buy a genuine.

Given my upbringing I would regard it obscene to wrap $40,000 around my wrist. ... but I do like the look!

This hobby is fun and I see these watches as conversation pieces and novelties. It makes me happy to be part of a community that shares the same interests and is filled with wonderful people. The watches are a bonus.

Chill out, relax and buy something. Make your first purchase for around $200 so if you are dissapointed it won't be a major loss. Then once you recieve that package and slap the shiny new Submariner on your wrist, feel free to break out the digital calipers and start measuring the distance between tic marks.

I have made my first purchase, not yet received. I have several more I have planned to buy. Along the way I will be learning. Thank you for your good counsel. I have enjoyed visiting with you.