Does a rep lead you to purchase gen?

[Victoria]

As an interesting aside, TZ is frequently filled with rants suggesting that anyone buying a rep is a fool with his money because of the presumed lack of accuracy & poor overall quality of rep watches. While that may have been true years ago when the best reps were Canal Street junk, I think just the opposite is now true. I believe the true fools are those holier-than-thou blabbermouths, who literally wait for years & end up spending thousands of dollars over list (which is out-pacing even the price of gas) to purchase a stainless Rolex Daytona when you can have essentially the same thing for a mere few hundred.

I know what you're saying, and some of the attitudes are very preachy and self-righteous.

But they're doing it right. They're buying the genuine thing, sacrificing to do so perhaps more than we'll know. That's not wrong.

Recently I was emailing with a guy on Risti who confessed he sold 5 PAMs of his to get the dream of his life -- a Fiddy and another model which came up of a sudden.

When I was replying to him, I happened to look down at my wrist, and realised that the dream watch he sacrified 5 of his dear possessions was on my wrist for a "mere" U$420.

I didn't feel he was a fool. In fact, I felt pretty scummy at that moment.

I'm not going to throw away my Fiddy and find morality of a sudden, but that doesn't make their sacrifice, and their scruples wrong. On the contrary, I'm the one doing wrong. And looking great during it.

[Victoria]

when I try on reps in ADs

[jsmith11]

Hi guys, I found this site when I was surfing another site and let me tell you this site rocks!

Now I have not purchased a rep yet but am in the process of doing so.

My only concern would be the quality and longevity. I bought a piece of crap from canal street and it fell apart within months, Hope I wont have that problem with a higher quality rep from a vendor on this site.

As for the gen vs. the rep, well I will let you guys know but I just think having a high quality reliable rep can be just as pleasing as the gen!

[freddy333]

vbarrett -- I know what you are saying and you do make some reasonable points. However, most serious watch collectors and TZ members are like car collectors--they are not mechanics & have no real sense of what lies 'under the hood'. These people purchase more because of brand recognition and presumed exclusivity than for any real appreciation of the art of mechanical craftsmanship (even though that is often the stated reasoning behind a purchase). And although the case can be made that gens tend to contain improved and/or more finely finished movements than most of the better (often Swiss-powered) reps, I think foolishness lies more with the average gen owner who looks down at his wrist and sees what is effectively the same watch as that which resides on the rep owner's wrist. The difference is that he, the gen owner, paid many times more to get the same degree of satisfaction.

[wheaton26]

it certainly did for me!

[Victoria]

vbarrett -- I know what you are saying and you do make some reasonable points. However, most serious watch collectors and TZ members are like car collectors--they have no idea what lies 'under the hood'. These people purchase more because of brand recognition and presumed exclusivity than for any real appreciation of the art of mechanical craftsmanship. And although the case can be made that gens tend to contain improved and/or more finely finished movements than most of the better (often Swiss-powered) reps, I think foolishness lies more with the average gen owner who looks down at his wrist and sees what is effectively the same watch as that which resides on the rep owner's wrist. The difference is that he, the gen owner, paid many times more to get the same degree of satisfaction.

Ahh, the age-old question of satisfaction versus worth.

There are some people, Freddy, that find it unconscionable to pay for bottled water. "WHAT! $5.70 for a bottle of Perrier at a restaurant, when I can get tap water for nothing?!?!".

Well, that's true. The same is true of "government cheese"/generic cheese and the goodness of imported, aged French cheese. Cheese is cheese. Water is water. A Fiddy is a Fiddy.

But whether or not you know something is good, doesn't mean they don't know something is better. At least, IMHO.

[freddy333]

Welcome jsmith.

As long as you understand that reps are not gens, meaning that no commercially manufactured rep will be made of exactly the same quality materials or was assembled with the same level of quality & QC as is available from gen vendors, you should be very pleasantly satisfied. And I can tell you that the reps discussed on this site are generally top quality (regardless of the marketing hype ('Swiss Grade 1', '1:1', 'perfect', etc.) you may see on many rep dealers' websites) and should last many years with proper care (and, like gens, being mechanical watches, most reps require periodic cleaning/servicing every 5-7 years). Also, most of the reps discussed here do come with a limited amount of after-sale support. So, if you receive a lemon, in most cases, you can have it put right.

Just be sure to spend ALOT of time reading, reading & reading the reviews and forum postings that relate to the watches you are interested in. Knowledge is your best defense against unhappy purchasing experiences. I would also recommend that you take a couple of trips to your local Authorized Dealer (AD) and try on your target watch BEFORE making a purchase. All commercially made reps have flaws and there are usually more than one version of the same watch model (made by different factories). Each version will usually contain a different set of flaws. One version's flaws is likely to bother you more than another, and that is the way to select the best rep. But you MUST have a benchmark against which to compare each rep's flaws. And this is why it is so important to visit your AD and familiarize yourself with your favorite watch BEFORE making a purchase.

This is a very enjoyable hobby, but it can also be very costly and addicting.

Read, enjoy and good luck.

[Victoria]

it certainly did for me!

And how do you feel now, straddling both sides of the fence, as it were, Wheaton?

(Seriously, not being facetious. I'd like to know. Panerai is a cult marque, and owning a gen one I think would make me feel different to my owning gen Cartiers versus rep ones)

[freddy333]

There are some people, Freddy, that find it unconscionable to pay for bottled water. "WHAT! $5.70 for a bottle of Perrier at a restaurant, when I can get tap water for nothing?!?!".

But whether or not you know something is good, doesn't mean they don't know something is better. At least, IMHO.

If you are comparing generic pharmaceuticals to their generic counterparts, I think that case can be made, since the active ingredients and efficacy of both can be proven to be the same. But, in the case of aesthetic judgements, if a difference is perceived between brand A and brand X, then the case can be made for paying some higher price for the 'better' mousetrap.

Personally, I do not like the taste of chlorine and so I am willing to pay more for bottled (or filtered) H2O, and I avoid tap like the plague. But if I was unable to tell the difference between Coke & Pepsi, I would never pay more for one over the other.

In the case of gen vs rep watches, I think that if the buyer does not know the difference, he/she is something of a fool to pay more for one over the other and an even bigger fool when he/she calls all rep buyers a fool.

Not sure the way I wrote that makes sense, but I think you get the point.

[Victoria]

If you are comparing generic pharmaceuticals to their generic counterparts, I think that case can be made, since the active ingredients and efficacy of both can be proven to be the same. But, in the case of aesthetic judgements, if a difference is perceived between brand A and brand X, then the case can be made for paying some higher price for the 'better' mousetrap.

Personally, I do not like the taste of chlorine and so I am willing to pay more for bottled (or filtered) H2O, and I avoid tap like the plague. But if I was unable to tell the difference between Coke & Pepsi, I would never pay more for one over the other.

We both used difficult analogies, because something organic is at once more precious than something mechanical, and can be time-intensive, but isn't as technically difficult to create as a timepiece.

Shall we say that people who buy gen watches have their reasons, and their reasons are not wrong; whilst people like us who buy reps are often quite knowledgeable but practical -- and leave it, more or less, at that?

[freddy333]

I have both, but I bow to your convictions.

[anton]

vbarrett -- I know what you are saying and you do make some reasonable points. However, most serious watch collectors and TZ members are like car collectors--they are not mechanics & have no real sense of what lies 'under the hood'. These people purchase more because of brand recognition and presumed exclusivity than for any real appreciation of the art of mechanical craftsmanship (even though that is often the stated reasoning behind a purchase). And although the case can be made that gens tend to contain improved and/or more finely finished movements than most of the better (often Swiss-powered) reps, I think foolishness lies more with the average gen owner who looks down at his wrist and sees what is effectively the same watch as that which resides on the rep owner's wrist. The difference is that he, the gen owner, paid many times more to get the same degree of satisfaction.

Ahh, and here we have the basis for the "double standard" argument. What you can say about the average TZ member is what they can say about the average RWG member.

One can easily say that we care or have even less appreciation for the "art or mechanical craftsmanship" as we, too, are looking for brand recognition and presumed exclusivity. In this world of gens vs. reps, we are all pretenders because we want to project an image of affluence to another. In an even deeper sense, maybe us as rep owners aspire to be gen owners because, after all, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

Sure, there are exceptions to the rule and collect for the "love" of collecting but I'm speaking generally. The reason why we see more hobbyists here is because:

1) This board has a fraction of members vs. TZ

2) It's economicially feasable on your conscience to tear apart a $200 watch. But would you dare take apart a $2000 watch? Not unless you had a a couple $6000 watches, you wouldn't.

[freddy333]

Ahh, and here we have the basis for the "double standard" argument. What you can say about the average TZ member is what they can say about the average RWG member.

One can easily say that we care or have even less appreciation for the "art or mechanical craftsmanship" as we, too, are looking for brand recognition and presumed exclusivity. In this world of gens vs. reps, we are all pretenders because we want to project an image of affluence to another. In an even deeper sense, maybe us as rep owners aspire to be gen owners because, after all, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

Not so fast there, Grasshopper. Unlike the majority of those TZ'ers who criticize rep buyers, I (and a number of other RWG members) am pretty well-versed with the goings-on within the typical mechanical watch or clock movement. And while I am more than happy to admit that I DO wear a Rolex for its brand recognition and exclusivity, I do not call gen (or rep) buyers & owners degenerates. And that is both the difference & the point I was trying to make. And, for full disclosure (and fairness), I should state that I originally joined TZ in the fall of '00.

[anton]

Not so fast there, Grasshopper. Unlike the majority of those TZ'ers who criticize rep buyers, I (and a number of other RWG members) am pretty well-versed with the goings-on within the typical mechanical watch or clock movement. And while I am more than happy to admit that I DO wear a Rolex for its brand recognition and exclusivity, I do not call gen (or rep) buyers & owners degenerates. And that is both the difference & the point I was trying to make. And, for full disclosure (and fairness), I should state that I originally joined TZ in the fall of '00.

Do you browse EVERY SINGLE SUBFORUM within TZ? Because those are alot of threads to read. Where I see an overwhelming majority of gen owners who despise rep owners are in the (not surprisingly) Rolex and Panerai subforums. And between you and me, I could care less what their opinions were. But at the same time, I appreciate the kind of brand loyalty they have. And I agree, I've stopped visiting TZ because of the lack of necessitated intelligence and/or valuable opinion.

If you'd like to visit a forum where there are gen owners who appreciate their watches, I suggest visiting PMWF or WUS.

[By-Tor]

Actually I owned a gen Aquaracer (non-chrono) before I found reps. Now I own the rep (chrono), and it's actually light years cooler watch. My gen was a quartz though.

PS: Lots of TZ and gen forum regulars bash reps "officially", but are closet rep buyers. I know this for a fact.

[freddy333]

PS: Lots of TZ and gen forum regulars bash reps "officially", but are closet rep buyers. I know this for a fact.

Yes, I know.

[anton]

I apologize to everyone who posted our opinions on gen vs. rep buyers, but I would really like for that discussion to be brought onto a new topic. Won't one of you start it off? I would like this thread to be strictly on members' reactions of purchasing gen after rep.

[freddy333]

Anton -- To be clear, I still visit TZ fairly regularly (mostly the Rolex, Patek, Lange & Jaeger forums), because it is still a great resource and there are alot of nice people over there. But my interests lie more in the mechanics of watches than just the aesthetics. So I tend to spend alot more time here than there. I just get a bigger kick reading Ziggy's latest movement review/teardown or discussing the details of Alligoat's, Repaustria's, Tribal's or Ubi's (and many of the other artists here) newest mod than looking at the same recycled wristshots of the same watches over and over again on TZ. And RWG offers a more laid-back atmosphere with fewer rules and limitations, which better suits my ever-curious personality.

[anton]

Well, I will concede --- when you are right, you are right. I see too many wristshots there. The one thing I have noticed, though, it one person attempting to "one-up" another.

[freddy333]

I agree, and an increasing number of the contestants in those bouts are touting reps. Definitely not recommended.

[TeeJay]

*Reads what I originally wrote*

You know what I meant (I hope )

Anyhoo. Yeah, so I'll try on a gen watch in an AD, and just think "I can get this* for cheaper..." I view ADs as the 'testing ground', and then decide if I want to buy the watch. If I do, I order a rep, not the factory perfect gen.

*cosmetically similar enough for my purposes

[TeeJay]

If you are comparing generic pharmaceuticals to their generic counterparts, I think that case can be made, since the active ingredients and efficacy of both can be proven to be the same. But, in the case of aesthetic judgements, if a difference is perceived between brand A and brand X, then the case can be made for paying some higher price for the 'better' mousetrap.

Personally, I do not like the taste of chlorine and so I am willing to pay more for bottled (or filtered) H2O, and I avoid tap like the plague. But if I was unable to tell the difference between Coke & Pepsi, I would never pay more for one over the other.

In the case of gen vs rep watches, I think that if the buyer does not know the difference, he/she is something of a fool to pay more for one over the other and an even bigger fool when he/she calls all rep buyers a fool.

Not sure the way I wrote that makes sense, but I think you get the point.

As a side note, my favorite drink is tap water (chlorine and all ) Also, I can taste the difference between Coke and Pepsi, and prefer Pepsi, however, I have found that some 'generic supermarket colas' are just as nice as Pepsi and just as satisfactory in quenching my Thirst (vampires get it for blood, I have The Thirst for Pepsi )

[TeeJay]

Ahh, and here we have the basis for the "double standard" argument. What you can say about the average TZ member is what they can say about the average RWG member.

One can easily say that we care or have even less appreciation for the "art or mechanical craftsmanship" as we, too, are looking for brand recognition and presumed exclusivity. In this world of gens vs. reps, we are all pretenders because we want to project an image of affluence to another. In an even deeper sense, maybe us as rep owners aspire to be gen owners because, after all, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

Sure, there are exceptions to the rule and collect for the "love" of collecting but I'm speaking generally. The reason why we see more hobbyists here is because:

1) This board has a fraction of members vs. TZ

2) It's economicially feasable on your conscience to tear apart a $200 watch. But would you dare take apart a $2000 watch? Not unless you had a a couple $6000 watches, you wouldn't.

Speak for yourself there, Anton... I collect reps because I object to the price tag of gens. I like how certain watches look, but am not prepared to pay the price tag, so instead, I want the closest to that appearance for the most reasonable price. I do not, however, wear 'high end' watches to impress people or convey a certain image, I do so for the reason I decide to put on jeans or a pink shirt: Because I like the way they look. If people want to assume that my watches are genuine, then that's their assumption. If someone was to ask me, I would never claim that a rep was a gen. Infact, the closest I would come to claiming a watch to be anything other than a rep, would be one which I customized or built myself, as I did with The Patient:

Not everyone on the forum buys reps just to pretend they have the real thing.

[freddy333]

TeeJay -- You should consider an Invicta or any of the dozens of other Rolex look-alike brands, which are built to much higher quality standards than any commercially-made rep, give you the look and feel of a Rolex (sans the Rolex name, since that is not important to you) and all for about the same cost as a good rep. You even get a real manufacturer's warranty, which comes without any of the legal and QC hassles of a rep.

[Pugwash]

Also, I can taste the difference between Coke and Pepsi, and prefer Pepsi,

I can smell the difference between Pepsi and Coke and, when being tested (double-blind - they were French) in the office had to hold my nose to show I was actually tasting the difference before declaring Pepsi as the vile brew that it was. I could tell 100% of the time and prefer Coke every time.

The problem with broad strokes describing RWGers and TZers is that some of us are them and some of them are us. We're everywhere and so are they.

Oh, Irn Bru in a glass bottle is the finest of all the fizzy drinks, just in case it was in any doubt.