"Updated" Vintage Daytona?

[Corgi]

Hi!

Recently Joshua introduced a new model into his collection... a vintage Daytona 6263 manual wind. You may be thinking this is nothing special, as this watch has already been on sale for months, but this one is supposedly "upgraded". The changes made are frozen 6:00 subdial hand (excellent) and "better dial print". This last claim I find troublesome because in my opinion the text looks a little (read: extremely) too large. I will let you decide for yourselves;

gen...

Can someone please explain to me if what I see is correct or if my eyeballs have malfunctioned?

[chrgod]

Yes, I thought the same thing... The frozen subdial is a good move, but that text...

This is my "old" Seagull-ST19 powered Daytona. With frozen subdial mod. The dial of this one was quite close to the gen, at least good enough for me.

[Corgi]

Exactly... my question is why would the makers implement such an outrageous change to an already excellent rep? It is a step backwards is it not...?

[By-Tor]

There is absolutely no logic with the rep factories. The fix one thing, fuck up another.

It has always been like this... especially with the Rolex reps. Sometimes I'm forced to think that they do it all on purpose.

[tmg]

There is absolutely no logic with the rep factories. The fix one thing, [censored] up another.

It has always been like this... especially with the Rolex reps. Sometimes I'm forced to think that they do it all on purpose.

Or they don't really care.

[freddy333]

There is absolutely no logic with the rep factories. The fix one thing, [censored] up another.

It has always been like this... especially with the Rolex reps. Sometimes I'm forced to think that they do it all on purpose.

A friend who used to manage an AD told me once that he had heard through the Audemars grapevine that a number of luxury watch brands met secretly with a major Chinese rep factory and told them that they, the watch brands, would not go after them 'in any serious way' (that was the exact phrase he used) as long as the factory agreed never to produce an exact copy of any of their watches.

Initially, I thought this was preposterous or one of those urban retail myths. But after thinking about it for awhile, it sort of began to make sense. Look, for instance, at my 116509 Daytona. They got all of the complicated little details on the dial right, but then they throw on these bogus 3/6/9 index markers that mark the watch as an obvious rep (at least until I can figure out a good way to fix them).

It is these kinds of 'mistakes' that make me wonder, because I find it very hard to believe that anyone could spend so much time researching to get so many tiny details right & then make such an obvious mistake that undoes all of that hard work. It just strains believability.

[Guest avitt]

Here's what jumped out at me when I saw Joshua's ad: The 19mm 571 end links, and hollow 78350 bracelet. These parts have been difficult to source in the past. The rest of the watch isn't too hot.

[Pugwash]

Initially, I thought this was preposterous or one of those urban retail myths. But after thinking about it for awhile, it sort of began to make sense.

Right up to the point you look at the TAG reps, the uPO, the SFSO, the 3717, the HBB ...

[piratedzeus]

Right up to the point you look at the TAG reps, the uPO, the SFSO, the 3717, the HBB ...

Right on everything BUT on that uPO...much overrated IMHO.

Clasp, logo, dial colour...

[LastDiplomat]

I have a hard time believing watch companies work in any way with replica makers. It sounds a little too Fox Mulder/conspiracy theory for me. I think replicas sometimes have obvious errors because there's no QC and the people who work on these watches aren't the same during each variation. One guy in one building may make a great Omega rep in March while another maker in another building makes a poor one in May. Also, these watches are probably sourced from parts that are available. Maybe they had everything needed to make a new Daytona except the correct 3, 6, 9 markers. If you were running a bootleg operation, I think you'd just slap it together and put it out on the streets. My .02 dollars.

[deltatahoe]

Here's what jumped out at me when I saw Joshua's ad: The 19mm 571 end links, and hollow 78350 bracelet. These parts have been difficult to source in the past. The rest of the watch isn't too hot.

i was thinking the exact same thing. if i can't get my current end links to fit my dw 6263 daytona (they are going to require some modding), i may contact joshua to see if he would sell just the bracelet & end links...

deltatahoe

[freddy333]

Actually, the dials (with the possible exception of a slightly 'off' DAYTONA font, hard to tell from the images) on the Newman models look pretty good to me.

[eunomians]

There is absolutely no logic with the rep factories. The fix one thing, [censored] up another.

It has always been like this... especially with the Rolex reps. Sometimes I'm forced to think that they do it all on purpose.

I hear you brother. Nothing infuriates me more.

[rgriffith24]

If I could digress, why would a frozen 6:00 sub dial be desirable on the rep. I've read this in other posts with basically the same comments. I would think that this would be less desirable as it makes it less like the original? Sorry for the noob moment!

[Rxus]

If I could digress, why would a frozen 6:00 sub dial be desirable on the rep. I've read this in other posts with basically the same comments. I would think that this would be less desirable as it makes it less like the original? Sorry for the noob moment!

I'm going to put down my own Noob comment specially comming from a Rolex noob like myself.

I don't understand why this manual movement is better with a frozen 6 subdial.. I understand why it is "better" on the 7750 models due to it's reliablity issues or better yet the lack of..

Again i'm not expert, but is it that this manual movement does not have running seconds at six? Becasue if it did, then this mod would be pointless

-or-

maybe the vintage Daytonas had some other function for the 6 subdial that i might not be aware of.

In any case, a nice to the point explenation would be much appreciated

[freddy333]

This is why it is advantageous to have the lower subdial 'frozen' at 12......

On the genuine vintage Daytonas, the subdial at 6 is the hour counter for the chronograph (the chronograph is a stopwatch, for those of you who are unfamiliar with vintage Rolexes). For every 2 complete rotations of the chronograph's minute counter (subdial at 3), the hour subdial clicks over 1 notch in its scale to denote 1 hour of elapsed time. However, and this is the important point, when the chronograph is not in use (which is 99% of the time), all 3 of the chronograph hands remain at the 12 o'clock position in each of their scales. The only moving hands are the normal centrally-fixed minute & hour hands and the running seconds hand, which is located in the 9 o'clock subdial.

In an ideal world, all reps would be able to replicate all of these functions exactly. Unfortunately, none of the currently produced movements include a functional hour chronograph counter in the 6 o'clock subdial position. There are a few, like the Lemania/Venus used in Josh's Daytona rep, which have 3 subdials, but the 6 o'clock subdial functions as either a calendar or a duplicate hour hand (it mimics the movements of the watch's main hour hand).

Remember, when the chronograph is NOT running (which is 99% of the time), the subdial at 6 should be pointing at the 12. So what modders have been doing is disabling whatever function the 6 o'clock subdial currently has and permanently 'freezing' the subdial's hand in the 12 o'clock position, so it looks like a genuine chronograph subdial in the OFF position. Since the hand in that subdial would only move once every hour when the chrono is running, it is rarely ever seen moving on the gen watches anyway. So having it 'fixed' permanently in the 12 o'clock position is actually a much better alternative than having it functioning incorrectly.

[AMK000]

I am not so sure (not a vintage expert) but I thing on the gen the chrono pushers are asymetric ..... and on the rep is not.

[rgriffith24]

Thanks for the explanation, makes sense.

[archibald]

A friend who used to manage an AD told me once that he had heard through the Audemars grapevine that a number of luxury watch brands met secretly with a major Chinese rep factory and told them that they, the watch brands, would not go after them 'in any serious way' (that was the exact phrase he used) as long as the factory agreed never to produce an exact copy of any of their watches.

Initially, I thought this was preposterous or one of those urban retail myths. But after thinking about it for awhile, it sort of began to make sense. Look, for instance, at my 116509 Daytona. They got all of the complicated little details on the dial right, but then they throw on these bogus 3/6/9 index markers that mark the watch as an obvious rep (at least until I can figure out a good way to fix them).

It is these kinds of 'mistakes' that make me wonder, because I find it very hard to believe that anyone could spend so much time researching to get so many tiny details right & then make such an obvious mistake that undoes all of that hard work. It just strains believability.

God only knows if a secret meeting ever took place, but I don't think there can be any debate that Rep factories intentionally leave a flaw or two designed to make a rep instantly discernable to a collector yet still fool the general population. The proof for me is that some flaws transcend geration, model, etc. yet will always remain. It makes sense really: I don't think repmakers are interested in profiting from the tiny number of people who sell reps as gens--they're interested in making money by giving a substantially larger number of people the chance to wear a "high end" watch w/o shelling out thousands of bucks. Whether this practice is to give the chinese government plausible deniability, to keep the Swiss heat off, or just tbusiness, who knows? All wee need to know is that if we're going to be as anal as we are we're always going to have to mod.

[freddy333]

Well put, Archi.

[FasTTaP]

back to the threat... the gen does have asymetric pusher... right?

[freddy333]

back to the threat... the gen does have asymetric pusher... right?

Correct, but only in the case of the vintage models.

One of the easiest ways to tell whether a vintage Daytona is genuine (or a franken, constructed with the same Valjoux base movement that Rolex based their modded version on) is by the pusher layout

This is a standard Valjoux 72 movement, which has an asymmetrical pusher configuration

Rolex changed the escape wheel/regulator system & machined (decorated)/engraved the pillar plate with its own unique model numbers (note the engraved '727' below the escape wheel & the additional text on some of the bridges)

However, beginning with the Zenith-powered 1652x Daytonas and currently, the pushers are symmetrical.

[Guest Sql_pl]

EE 6263 reps with asian 7750 movements also had assymetrial pushers so it is not only a val72 spec thing.

[freddy333]

EE 6263 reps with asian 7750 movements also had assymetrial pushers so it is not only a val72 spec thing.

Yes, sorry I forgot those. But the 7750s used in most other vintage Daytona reps do not have asymmetrical pushers. Also the Valjoux movements are thinner & manual-wind.

[FasTTaP]

EE 6263 reps with asian 7750 movements also had assymetrial pushers so it is not only a val72 spec thing.

Never heard of this one... does one of our dealer carry it?

@freddy333

Thanks, expert response very informative