All Fun And Games In Haditha?

[Lollipop]

Now here's a contentious topic....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5033648.stm

Haditha: Massacre and cover-up?

By Martin Asser

BBC News

Haditha is an agricultural community of about 90,000 inhabitants on the banks of the Euphrates north-west of Baghdad.

It lies in the huge western province of Anbar, which has been the heartland of the insurgency since US troops led the invasion of Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein in 2003.

It is a dangerous place for the US marines who control this part of Iraq and for the inhabitants, caught between insurgents and American troops.

On the morning of 19 November 2005, the Subhani neighbourhood was the scene of an event that has become like the pulse of the insurgency - a roadside bomb targeting a US military patrol.

It killed 20-year-old Lance Corp Miguel (TJ) Terrazas, driving one of four humvee vehicles in the patrol, and injured two other marines.

A simple US military statement hinted at the bloody chain of events which the attack started - though subsequent scrutiny showed it to be far from the truth.

It said: "A US marine and 15 civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb in Haditha.

"Immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small arms fire. Iraqi army soldiers and marines returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another."

Video footage

The tragedy of Haditha may have been left at that - just another statistic of "war-torn" Iraq, a place too dangerous to be reported properly by journalists, where openness is not in the interests of political and military circles, and the sheer scale of death numbs the senses.

However, a day after the incident, local journalist Taher Thabet got his video camera out and filmed scenes that - whatever they were - were not the aftermath of a roadside bomb.

The bodies of women and children, still in their nightclothes; interior walls and ceilings peppered with bullet holes; bloodstains on the floor.

Mr Thabet's tape prompted an investigation by the Iraqi human rights group Hammurabi, which passed details onto the US weekly magazine Time in January.

Before publishing its account on 19 March, the magazine passed the tape to US military commanders in Baghdad, who initiated a preliminary investigation.

Following their findings, the official version was changed to say that, after the roadside bomb, the 15 civilians had been accidentally shot by marines during a firefight with insurgents.

Nevertheless, on 9 March the top commanders in Baghdad began a criminal investigation, led by the Naval Criminal Investigation Service (NCIS). Its report is expected within days.

On 7 April three officers in charge of troops in Haditha were also stripped of their command and reassigned.

Pretended to die

Eyewitness accounts suggest that comrades of Lance Corp Terrazas, far from coming under enemy fire, went on the rampage in Haditha after his death.

Twelve-year-old Safa Younis appears in a Hammurabi video saying she was in one of three houses where troops came in and indiscriminately killed family members.

"They knocked at our front door and my father went to open it. They shot him dead from behind the door and then they shot him again," she says in the video.

"Then one American soldier came in and shot at us all. I pretended to be dead and he didn't notice me."

Hammurabi says eight people died in the house, including Safa's five siblings, aged between 14 and two.

In another house seven people including a child and his 70-year-old grandfather were killed. Four brothers aged 41 to 24 died in a third house. Eyewitnesses said they were forced into a wardrobe and shot.

Outside in the street, US troops are said to have gunned down four students and a taxi driver they had stopped at a roadblock set up after the bombing.

Damage

The Pentagon has said little about the Haditha deaths publicly, and in Iraq the incident has caused little controversy - US troops there are already routinely viewed as trigger happy and indifferent to Iraqi casualties.

But politicians in Washington who have been briefed on the military investigation say it backs the story that marines killed civilians in cold blood.

The chairman of the Senate armed services committee, John Warner, says it will hold hearings into the incident and how it was handled.

Media commentators have spoken of it as "Iraq's My Lai" - a reference to the 1968 massacre of 500 villagers in Vietnam.

Democrat congressman John Murtha, a former marine and war veteran, has said the Haditha incident could turn out to be an even bigger scandal than the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal.

The Marine Corps has responded to Mr Murtha by saying it would be inappropriate to comment on an ongoing investigation, but would do so "as soon as the facts are known and decisions on future actions are made".

IMO those Marines are out of luck this time as a journalist just happened to be filming the aftermath, I'm sure that many more civilians were killed just like this but were never reported. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Oh well........war is hell, soldiers kill innocent civilians (and their comrades too, remember Pat Tillman?) and then their commanders try to cover it up, how typical.

[ryyannon]

that's 24 men, women and children who won't have to be blown apart in a market or a mosque by their own neighbors and countrymen.

we can't help but do good wherever we are.

[robertrinaustin]

It's a horrible thing and inexcuasable if the allegations are true, which there is no reason to doubt them at this point.

[Johnkaz]

Not looking good for USA.

This is wrong.

[ryyannon]

Of course it's wrong.

On the other hand, can you suggest some way to make it right?

If so, I'll pay your ticket over there.

One way, since there will be little chance of your coming back.

[Johnkaz]

Just send me the cash instead and I will postulate.

Cheers Johnkaz.

[ryyannon]

Just send me the cash instead and I will postulate.

Cheers Johnkaz.

Is that a synonym for procrastinate? :-)

[ekhunter]

that's 24 men, women and children who won't have to be blown apart in a market or a mosque by their own neighbors and countrymen.

we can't help but do good wherever we are.

This is a terrible thing that has happened, unfortunately, it shows the level of frustration that the US Marines are at. If these insurgents were real men, then they would come out and fight. Instead they hide behind women, children and in mosque. These insurgents think they are fighting a holy war, instead they are a disgrace to themselves and Islam. I raise my feet to them, they will never see Allah!

[Lollipop]

This is a terrible thing that has happened, unfortunately, it shows the level of frustration that the US Marines are at. If these insurgents were real men, then they would come out and fight. Instead they hide behind women, children and in mosque. These insurgents think they are fighting a holy war, instead they are a disgrace to themselves and Islam. I raise my feet to them, they will never see Allah!

The problem is you can't expect those insugents to fight fair if they're so outnumbered and outgunned. The French resistance in WW2 would've been wiped out by the Nazis if they go outside with guns blazing.

[Guest overboosted]

What a shame it is...

If only the world knew all the things that happen but never get light shed upon,,,,not only the U.S. either.

It's war, [censored] happens. It aint pretty. Your people attack mine, day-in and day-out, I am not so leanient towards your people anymore.

[ekhunter]

The problem is you can't expect those insugents to fight fair if they're so outnumbered and outgunned. The French resistance in WW2 would've been wiped out by the Nazis if they go outside with guns blazing.

I don't think any reasonable person can compare the French Freedom Fighters to the So-Called Insurgents in Iraq. But while we are on that subject. Since the Nazis showed no mercy and had no respect for civilian life, they took 10 civilian lives for every German killed. This kept the Resistance way underground. These insurgents are killing their own people. I'm talking women and children being blown up because they are not Sunnis. People going to worship at the Mosque are being pulled over and shot, by Iraqis. These so called insurgents were in power for a long time and don't want to give it up. It's a lot like the Klansman in the south (US) in the 1960's killing blacks because they didn't want them to have a voice in the government. They thought that intimidation would stop democracy. Well, it didn't work then, and it won't work now. However one may feel about the war, the fact's are these. Sadaam was a murdering psychopath, an he is gone, never to be in power again. Iraq needs a new form of government, and not a dictatorship. U.S. troops need to come home as soon as they can, sooner the better, and so on and so on, this thread could go forever. The bottom line is WAR SUCKS, but sometimes a necessary evil. Now lets talk Replica Watches!

[slay]

Imagine you were one of them. One of your best pals got killed by a carbomb and you just know those ppl knew about the bomb, or worse they even helped the ppl who set the bomb up. IMHO it can happen that soldiers lose their mind in such situations. I doubt they killed all of them civilians "just for fun" and because they are sickos!

[Johnkaz]

Is that a synonym for procrastinate? :-)

No.

[Highflyingclive]

Bhagdad morgue reports 6000 corpses so far this year. Does not comment on how many may be lying in ditches.

Amnesty International reports on secret US "Extrodinary Rendition" torture camps in eastern Europe.

250 UK police mobilised in a dawn raid to arrest two - yes, just two - suspected terrorists. So far, unable to find any evidence against them.

Nevertheless, one of the suspects was shot. "Hey, guys... while we are here we may as well use some of this fancy armament..."

All this, for a tank of gas.

Hang your head in shame.

The world was a lot more secure when Sadam was running Iraq.

[censored]. Iraq was a lot more secure when Sadam was running the place.

[KB]

Bhagdad morgue reports 6000 corpses so far this year. Does not comment on how many may be lying in ditches.

Just out of interest were all these related to the war?

People die in normal peaceful times too.

Ken

[robertrinaustin]

Hang your head in shame.

The world was a lot more secure when Sadam was running Iraq.

[censored]. Iraq was a lot more secure when Sadam was running the place.

I am very much opposed to the war in Iraq, but I must disagree. How secure was Iraq for those that were out of favor with Sadam for whatever reason? He is a madman that killed his poeple at unbelievable rates and to even suggest that Iraq was a better place with him in power is borderline insane. His killing machine killed thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Iraqi citizens.

Until the citizens of Iraq take control of the insurgents and stop this madness, it will never end. And herein lies the problem in my opinion. When you fight and give your own blood for freedom, you're more invested in the outcome. When an outsider comes in and imposes freedom, you do not have the same investment and the people of Iraq seem to lack the will or desire to stop the insurgency. It is a very terrible thing because they pay the ultimate price everyday with the lives of innocent civilians.

Remember, the monsters from before the war are still monsters. They just don't answer to Sadam any longer.

[premiumdesigners]

its war. people die, innocent or guilty. get over it.

[exper]

Just out of interest were all these related to the war?

People die in normal peaceful times too.

Ken

Here you go

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5053134.stm

Violent Baghdad deaths top 6,000

Mortuaries have become a focal point for families seeking loved ones

The bodies of 6,000 people, most of whom died violently, have been received by Baghdad's main mortuary so far this year, health ministry figures show

We should know by now that Iraq had nothing to do with freeing the country or finding weapons of mass destruction but seemingly more to do with that little bit of black gold they have

[Highflyingclive]

.... His killing machine killed thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Iraqi citizens....

Bush's killing machine has killed hundreds of thousands, in less than half the time.

That's progress for you.

[Highflyingclive]

its war. people die, innocent or guilty. get over it.

No. I won't.

And neither should you.

[robertrinaustin]

Bush's killing machine has killed hundreds of thousands, in less than half the time.

That's progress for you.

That is an outright lie. I challenge you to prove that American Forces killed anywhere near that number from a legitimate news source. I am opposed to the war as much as you, but let's not play make believe. It only weakens your position when people point you out as some radical fool spewing made up information.

[robertrinaustin]

We should know by now that Iraq had nothing to do with freeing the country or finding weapons of mass destruction but seemingly more to do with that little bit of black gold they have

As posted before, I am very opposed to the war. However, if this is all about oil, which seems to be the premise of many that hold the same position I do, why is oil at it's highest cost ever (noninflation adjusted dollers)? If the US has "control" of such a great oil source, do you really think we would not flood the market with oil to reduce prices? Or is it part of the master plan for the oil companies to make more money?

[KB]

Clive maybe should give us a little more info when you talk about those 6,000 bodies so far this year, the article goes on to state.......The majority are believed to be victims of sectarian killings........I'm not sure you should be trying to pin that one on the Americans

Ken

[ekhunter]

Not to add a little fuel to the fire, but if you look up the word Insurgent in the dictionary, it says Rebel. A Rebel is one who rebels or resist authority. The mainstream Media would have you believe that these are all Iraqis standing up to the big bad U.S., when in reality many of them are Saudis, Iranians, Lebanese, and Syrians. My cousin just got back from Iraq, and he told me that a lot of the so called Insurgents that they killed or captured were from foreign countries. This being so, then why doesn't the press call them foreign invaders fighting against the Iraqi people and government. It's sad to say, but the press tells the public what they want you to hear. How about a story about freedoms that many of the Iraqis are now enjoying. It's got to be some positive News out there somewhere.

[Guest TTK]

The problem is that America and others ...the UK as a prime example....were and are totally unprepared for the outcome of their actions.....they failed to grasp the mood annd culture of the Middle East......the British more than anyone should have known better....we've spent 1100 years and more fighting with the Moors ( muslims )...and were responsible for the setup of Iraq...!

As soon as you engage in military conflict.....you must realise that there will inevitably be some form of reckoning on one side or the other......this unfortunately is unlike any convential war......convential war requires deprivng your enemy of resources.....weapons / fuel / food / etc etc....which convential armies depend on....and overwhelming them with military might.....but you need to be able to identify friend from foe......that's impossible in a situation such as Iraq or the Middle East in general......you're dealing not with a convential territorial dispute.....but an idealogy that is 1500 years older than the most capable military country and fighting force in the world......that much is evident when you compare the 1st gulf war with the second......Sadaam was expelled from Kuwait and a semi-peace was established in the region again.....no power vacuum......the 2nd war is entirely different.....it's led to a power vacuum....a country that is inherently ustable....the expansion of fundamental belief in a moderate populace that can't deal with it...any more than the fighting forces can.......the gulf between Islam and the West has existed for 1500 years and more.....their religious tenets don't allow for them the luxury of embracing other belief systems......or the consideration that anyone other themselves has worth.......it's an idealogy that hasn't changed in 1500 years....and no amount of "winning the hearts and minds' belief on the part of Western governments will change it......!

America and the UK...principally led us to war in Iraq on falsehoods or at best misinterpretation of intelligence.........that much can't be disputed......recent history has and will reveal more about the lies that were told......the American people are now beginning to open their eyes as to the futility of this war.....realising that it was not a 'moral' crusade....but a more oil crusade....a sphere of influence was and is required in the Middle East....hence Iraq

Simply put.......we are not at war with Iraq or Iraquis.......sure there may be a few who are supporting insurgents who are crossing open borders....not just open....but actively funnelled thru' other Islamic states who support the war on the infidels..from Sudan to Saudi...Yemen to Pakistan......at least with Saddam in power it was a containment exercise...he prevented insurgency in his country and ruthlessly hunted down terrorist cells....he didn't want them upsetting the power balance that he controlled.....and yes.....Kurds were dying....so were his own people....but historically speaking....so were the Jews and Christians...Americans ...Russians et al....under the yoke of opressors in their specific countries.....but everyone of them eventually cast off the yoke of tyranny and oppression....and they did it from within......without interference from supposed "police" action on the part of any country that expresses or expressed a need or desire to impose their idealogy on those countries.....who gave the West the right to impose their values on other countries.....just as no fundamental Islamist has the right impose his beliefs or actions on others....!

As for the "alleged" criminal / murderers in the US army........they have the right to a fair trial and are to be viewed as innocent until judged by their peers and found guilty or not.....it's not for a propagandising media service to hang these men before trial....if they are guilty......and I sincerely hope thay are not.......then ..murder is murder.....even in war....there's no point in having a double standard.......if a soldier is murdered in conflict......he deserves the same justice....as do Iraqui or any other non-combatants....the additional concern is the possibilty of a cover-up........if that is proved...then those that helped perpetrate it should also be punished.....there's no point in taking the moral high ground and acting illegally....!

Edited June 7, 2006 by TTK