Guns, society, moral judgements...bring it on here!

[elwopo]

So........this is why I started this.

This is a place for everyone who has an opinion to state their case about whatever they want regarding the whole "gun thing"...."society thing"...."violence thing".....or whatever.

This is a place for everyone who destroyed Kenberg's thread to say whatever they want to....and get all the attention they want.

Here goes.....I'll start.

Guns are good. People are stupid, lazy, and materialistic (to the point of their downfall). Video games, movies, weapons, and social climate are NOT the problem with the world society.....PARENTS are.

There you go....you have your jump start.

Discuss amongst yourselves and say what you feel you have to.

[Dani]

So........this is why I started this.

This is a place for everyone who has an opinion to state their case about whatever they want regarding the whole "gun thing"...."society thing"...."violence thing".....or whatever.

This is a place for everyone who destroyed Kenberg's thread to say whatever they want to....and get all the attention they want.

Here goes.....I'll start.

Guns are good. People are stupid, lazy, and materialistic (to the point of their downfall). Video games, movies, weapons, and social climate are NOT the problem with the world society.....PARENTS are.

There you go....you have your jump start.

Discuss amongst yourselves and say what you feel you have to.

Humans sucks animal rocks

we humans are to full of our self beliving we are the best on this planet when all we do is destroing our planet

[Desuetude]

Shall I copy+paste my response in Bergie's thread? lol. Humans are pretty self destructive by nature. Guns are good, when they're in the right hands. The vast majority of humans are completely idiotic and totally disposable. Now I'm waiting for someone to try and argue otherwise. Come on, someone take a shot, say that intelligence is totally an issue of socioeconomic circumstance!

[Victoria]

Shall I copy+paste my response in Bergie's thread? lol. Humans are pretty self destructive by nature. Guns are good, when they're in the right hands. The vast majority of humans are completely idiotic and totally disposable. Now I'm waiting for someone to try and argue otherwise. Come on, someone take a shot, say that intelligence is totally an issue of socioeconomic circumstance!

[Corgi]

Guns are great. I say, the more the better. If somebody is trying to attack you, and you have a gun, you can defend yourself. Therefore, guns mean safety. It's basic logic really, I sleep with two UZI under my pillow, and the next person to come within 3m of my house gets evaporated. (That's if the landmine doesn't get them first)

[dieselpower]

Guns are fantastic..... at killing things.

I've never really been into killing things.

[elwopo]

Guns are also very good for a hobby called target practice.

Whether small bore pistol, long range rifle, skeet shooting....or the many other forms available.....there are skills required and lessons that can be learned.

It's very enjoyable....and nothing gets hurt (except those poor defenseless paper targets.....and the occassional watermelon for fun...)

[andreww]

Some facts comparing Canada (Gun Control) to the United States...

Murders without guns in the US are about 40% higher (1.4 times the rate) than in Canada while murders WITH handguns are 1500% higher (15 times the rate).

Australian states with registration had significantly lower rates of homicide and suicide with firearms than states without registration of firearms.

Studies examining the effects of legislation on death and injury rates in Canada have also suggested that stricter controls reduce gun death. A more recent study suggests that changes to Canada

[Desuetude]

You clearly did not read any of the reports I quoted. They are all pro-gun control, anti NRA reports. These are the facts as provided by the second largest sociological survey in America.

Now, you bring up unregistered guns. If one legally owns a weapon, one must personally have a license to own said weapon, in addition to registering it. Unregistered weapons (I.E. Guns that have had serial numbers ground off, etc) are extremely illegal, no matter what country you go to; weapons trafficking is just as illegal as drug trafficking. You even said yourself that Canada has strict gun control laws, yet you have high amounts of gun crime. Are most of these crimes committed with weapons that are legally owned and operated? I'd venture to guess that would be a no. Yet you love to blame the U.S. for all of your problems up there, meanwhile, the same thing is every bit as illegal down here. Now that we have established that the gun crime in Canada is just as illegal here as it is up there, tell me, Mr. Emotional, how do us gun totin' Yanks somehow manage to extend our Godlike arm into the the sacred nation of Canada, desecrating it with an endless supply of weapons, when said supply of weapons is equally illegal in the US? If you hate the U.S. so much for the supposed damage that we've caused to your country, go illegally acquire an unregistered weapon, and go shoot something up. Your actions would be just as illegal there as they would here. And for the record, the number of illegally owned weapons in this country is at an all time low.

You still haven't addressed the real problem. You can stop dancing around the issue now, I'm becoming bored of playing schoolteacher.

[andreww]

Whatever dude. Simply put, put one gun in a room full of a hundred people and I guarantee you that at some point in time somebody is gonna get shot. I there is no gun in the room, what would the likelihood be? These days anybody can get stats to say whatever they want them to say, especially with powerful groups like the NRA involved. Nobody can deny the obvious numbers that show that gun controlled countries have lesser incidence of violent and self inflicted death, than non controlled countries.

Now I'm done,..... before you shoot me

[elwopo]

Interesting point. Yes....if there is a gun in the room that raises the potential that someone could get shot. What do you feel the "likelihood" would be of someone getting punched, shoved, stabbed, or otherwise abused in your same scenario?

We don't know because you did not present any kind of intelligent details regarding the point you were trying to make.

Put a bow and arrow in the same room you speak of.....eventually someone will get skewered.

I realize that you were trying to make a point....it's just that it did not make any sense.

Please bear in mind that my comments are not intended to single you out. It may seem that way...but it's merely because you are the only one with the stones to move into this thread. Interesting how some others...with so much to say....have either moved on to their "wristies" threads....or complete silence.

While I do not understand the mindset of people who believe guns are evil.....I try to respect their right to have an opinion.

It would just be nice, for a change, to see any one of these people present a stance based on facts instead of the high level of emotion they feel.

Guns...in any form....are not the problem. The real problem is society. The lack of values that our worldwide society perpetuates. We HAVE to have the great car...the big house...the display for nothing other than others to see.

To do this now....everyone has to work. There's no more stay at home parents. Raise kids?!? Hell no! Everybody works so that we can have the "stuff" to keep up with our neighbors. The schools and babysitters take care of the spawn so we don't have to be bothered in our quest for cool stuff.

Then we wonder why they are so messed up as they grow older.

If some people don't like guns.....that is their right. I do sincerely wish that their convictions are never tested.

All I know is that if someone enters my home with the intention of doing harm.....I have more to protect my family than just my ability to beg.

[andreww]

Interesting point. Yes....if there is a gun in the room that raises the potential that someone could get shot. What do you feel the "likelihood" would be of someone getting punched, shoved, stabbed, or otherwise abused in your same scenario?

The likelihood would be very good, but your chances of surviving these events is far greater than a gun attack.

Put a bow and arrow in the same room you speak of.....eventually someone will get skewered.

Thats just silly. The problem is that handguns can be concealed. Try getting to school with a bow and arrow in your jeans.

I realize that you were trying to make a point....it's just that it did not make any sense.

Makes all the sense in the world. What happens in a microcosm generally occurs in a macrocosm as well.

Please bear in mind that my comments are not intended to single you out. It may seem that way...but it's merely because you are the only one with the stones to move into this thread. Interesting how some others...with so much to say....have either moved on to their "wristies" threads....or complete silence.

Because these threads never come to a conclusion. You have people with common sense and then you have people with guns. Who wins?

Guns...in any form....are not the problem. The real problem is society.

Great, you fix society, then you can have your guns okay?

if someone enters my home with the intention of doing harm.....I have more to protect my family than just my ability to beg.

Statistics show that the odds are far far greater that you will kill somebody other than an intruder first.

[capt_cope]

Yeah you put one gun in there, someone will get shot at some point, only chances are it won't be just one person shot, it'll be as many people dead as the shooter can manage. Now toss 100 guns in the room. If anyone gets shot, you can be sure the undesirable element will be removed post-haste, problem solved.

Why is it guns are so notorious? Everyone likes to throw out these pretty charts of how the more guns there are, the more people die from GSW. But have you ever looked at the bigger picture? Assault (all forms, not just assault with a gun)doesn't even make the top 10 causes of death in the US. The number 1 cause of death: heart disease. Where are all the sniveling liberals marching for the ban of fatty food? Where are the supporters of food control? I mean surely far more lives would be saved if people were forced to eat foods that aided health and well being. The number two cause of death? Cancer. Yet all the bleeding-heart liberal politicians continue to rake in the money on taxing cancer causing products like cigarettes. Where is the million mom march when it comes to soda? It's been proven to promote diabetes, the number 6 cause of death in the US.

Guns aren't bad. They are inanimate objects. I happen to like mine very much, and I'd appreciate it if those who don't enjoy them would stop trying to remove mine. It's rude at best.

Oh and when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Be prepared to take care of yourself.

[andreww]

The number 1 cause of death: heart disease. Where are all the sniveling liberals marching for the ban of fatty food? Where are the supporters of food control? I mean surely far more lives would be saved if people were forced to eat foods that aided health and well being. The number two cause of death? Cancer. Yet all the bleeding-heart liberal politicians continue to rake in the money on taxing cancer causing products like cigarettes. Where is the million mom march when it comes to soda? It's been proven to promote diabetes, the number 6 cause of death in the US.

The difference is that all the examples you list are self inflicted poisons. Guns usually kill someone else.

[capt_cope]

So a self inflicted death is somehow less tragic than a death caused by another?

[andreww]

So a self inflicted death is somehow less tragic than a death caused by another?

Certainly suicides are less tragic than homicides. But guns account for a lot of those too.

[archibald]

It's basic logic really, I sleep with two UZI under my pillow

[V]

I've never seen a real gun in my life and I am 31 years old

Should I be ashamed like if I was a 'virgin' then?

[capt_cope]

That's pretty sad to hear andreww. The amount of loss when someone dies should NOT be measured by the means in which they died.

[dieselpower]

Yet again the obsession with guns never ceases to amaze me. Just for the hell of it I'd like to add a couple of things to the debate.

There are plenty of people in the UK with guns. I think what makes a difference is that guns are not so easy to get hold of. I am not an expert on the subject but I know you have paperwork to do. Gun cabinets have to be inspected etc etc. As a consequence there are far less guns in circulation in the UK and the link between that and the (relatively) low death rate by firearms cannot be denied. I don't think any sane person cannot therefore conclude that the fewer guns there are in circulation in a society the fewer deaths by guns you will have. As an ardent Brit basher (I feel I have the right to be as I am one) I have to admit that it is one of our greatest achievements that our police do not routinely carry guns.

It is the ease of access to guns that is the problem.

We have all I'm sure experienced moments when interacting with other human beings that arguments have ensued and tempers have been lost. This is normal. When you throw easily available (and portable) lethal weapons into that equation the result is well... potentially lethal. (Not rocket science is it).

Therefore my argument is a simple one. If you make guns more difficult to get hold of, less people will die by them. I would actually argue that less people would die overall.

As for countries where there are lots of guns in circulation? I'm sorry but you are already f****d. You can not wind the clock back. But when others point out that this availability is not necessarily the best course of action a society may have chosen don't get all defensive about it, just admit that it was a mistake, one that can't be helped, one that happened for a myriad of reasons and smile sweetly and go about your business which preferably does not include blowing your neighbours brains out because his dog pooped on your lawn.

[andreww]

That's pretty sad to hear andreww. The amount of loss when someone dies should NOT be measured by the means in which they died.

My brother killed himself not long ago. I didn't say that it wasn't tragic, simply that those that chose to kill themselves have made a choice. You do not have that option when you are facing someone with a loaded gun. All human loss is tragic, but it is more tragic when it could have been avoided.

[andreww]

When you throw easily available (and portable) lethal weapons into that equation the result is well... potentially lethal. (Not rocket science is it).

You would think this was a pretty easy point of view to grasp, but when groups like the NRA get their knickers in a knot over such ideas as mandatory 24hr waiting periods to purchase a weapon, you have to wonder

[capt_cope]

You would think this was a pretty easy point of view to grasp, but when groups like the NRA get their knickers in a knot over such ideas as mandatory 24hr waiting periods to purchase a weapon, you have to wonder

Yeah,I have to wait a full 3 days to pick up my guns, and I'm in a pretty lax state. And someone mentioned something about it being too late to wind back the clock... AMEN. There are already so many guns in the hands of criminals, to remove or severely restrict them from law abiding citizens would do little to stop deaths from guns. That's something that always amazed me: If we've got all these laws in place concerning guns, and none of the criminals are following them (big suprise eh? A criminal who isn't obeying the law.) WHY in the name of God is adding another half dozen going to suddenly make the criminal stop. Take a double take, and swiftly turn himself in? All gun control can do now is make more victims. And to think it was a mistake is wrong. Look at the role firearms played throughout the history of the US. There is a reason we have the second amendment, regardless of what dumb shits and their "it's only for militias, NOT citizen" bs. They helped us conquer the west and innumerable other things, but I'm running late for work. I'll finish this later.

[sssurfer]

Guns...in any form....are not the problem. The real problem is society.

Almost correct. But the problem is man rather than society. Man ("human" world intentionally missed) society arises whenever and everywhere two men meet, but even a single man is dangerous to any other living beings. Man (as well as Macacus Rhesus and other beings provided with machiavellan intelligence) is obviously a cancer to Earth. Agent Smith was right.

Great, you fix society, then you can have your guns okay?

Naturally.

Btw, do you think that forbidding weapons would fix man/society?

In the country where I live guns are forbidden. The obvious result is that only criminals have guns.

My only weapons are reduced to knives, my car, my body, and my anatomical and physiological knowledge. But I can assure you that I would not hesitate a second to killl (or severely wound, depending on the threat) anyone who threatens me or my family, if I were given a chance. In case of threat, guns only decide who hits first, and I regret of almost surely being the last one who can hit.

And -- not just to give a false impression about me -- I am one who never attacks on his own initiative, one who takes care of others (literally), one who cares not to even crush ants under his foot when he walks.

[docblackrock]

Much against my better judgement, I'll bite and then say no more...

Firstly elwopo, much as I like the HKP avatar ('Spot' was my hero though), I think this is an ill-thought and inappropriate thread to dig up and restir again. This is an international WATCH forum where you're always going to get your "gun-toting Yankees", "pacifist liberals", and "agnostic disapproving Europeans". In other words, it's a pointless argument here. Lobby your MP, Representative, Senator, whatever, instead, if you feel that strongly.

Capt Cope - your arguments are way off-base - using disease analogies is deeply flawed - there are simply other dynamics involved in that arena.

Dieselpower - seriously, you really think guns are hard to come by in the UK?! And require paperwork?! I wish it were true...

V - surprised to hear that not only because of your compulsory military service as a youngster, but also considering the city where you live and the terrible (statistically-supported) reputation it has...

Andrew - sorry to hear that - admire your stance, especially as it goes against the grain over that side of the Pond.