Teddy Bear

[DET11]

I am also of the belief that there are limits to our purpose in the middle east.....zealous men are ever showing you the strength of their belief, while judicious men are showing you their grounds of it.

[cornerstone]

Wow, if you think they were harsh on the teacher, just think what they'll do to the poor kid with the teddy bear the first time he plays "what's your porn name?"

[hambone]

Today there were about a thousand protesters at the ministry of justice demanding that this woman, a kindly educator who

molds the fragile minds of young children, be executed because she dared to name the kids teddy bear Mohammed, which is a generic name in islam, much the same as 'John ' is in western society.

How can there even be a God if he does not smote these stupid, stupid jackoffs with lightning bolts right up there arseholes?

[Emmzy]

The UnBearable Lightness of Being

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...849#description

Laughter is often the best defense.

Briiliant. English humour at it's best! I've bid....the proceeds go to a worthy and non religious cause.

[Guest watchbuff]

Ironically, I fail to see a difference between your POV and theirs. People like you scare me

Sorry if I'm scary. I thought the zealots would have me beat. Pug, love ya like a brother but I lost friends in the middle east, I was only a few steps away from 1 world trade center when #2 came down.

I have been to more funerals than I want to count. Abu Gharib is nothing more than soldiers venting, no one was "murdered". Embarrassed is more like it but I'll take that over a beheading any day.

I'm not saying America is right. I love my country and will not stand by and "let" them murder another human being. Even after they have been warned not to go to a 3rd world country. I give up.

Lose someone close to you over this Jihad, you may see things differently.

[cornerstone]

I lost friends in the middle east

I know you know, but just to keep the thing on topic we are of course talking about somewhere in Africa. And a teddy bear.

When I saw those people protesting it made me think of the kind of xenophobic vitriol you find in the Daily Mail or the media pretty much anywhere. That the attack is not about teddy bears or Islam, it's about outsiders not being "one of us" and arseholes in general. Swap around a few of the facts (but keeping the foreigner theme) and I wonder if the story could be transplanted to most countries.

Indeed, the strength of the 'public' response seems so on cue it made me think (very cynically) of 'Scoop', which is set in the same region. There's no doubt that there's no news here in the people of Sudan thinking it's a bit lame, no - we want to see machetes in the street. That's the story. I wonder if the story wasn't just given, you know, a little, itty bitty push...

[TeeJay]

Sorry, but that old expression "When in Rome..." comes to mind here. I don't approve of what's happened, and it actually sounds like the 'complaint' against the teacher were actually motivated by personal beef, not 'religious objection', but the fact of the matter is, as Ken pointed out above, the teacher should have been much more aware of what would, or would not be acceptable, so responsibility for that, should also rest on the agency which employed her to work in the country.

In all honesty, she's getting off lightly, given that she could have been on the receiving end of fourty lashes. Two weeks in a filthy jail, and then deported from the country. Certainly not as bad as the tabloids, which were practically begging for her to be flogged, just so they could shift more copies of their sleazy rags, where suggesting would be the outcome.

Also, before people start getting all worked up about Islam and Muslims, just remember that these people in Sudan are about as 'Islamic', as the 'Christians' who live in the UK and US and never set foot in a church or observe any other religious holidays. I'm sure the people there go through all the motions involved with Islam, but in an indoctrinated way rather than one of personal choice. It wouldn't matter if the people in Sudan where Muslims, Christians, Buddhists or even Athiests, they would still have a [censored]ed up country and outlook on life.

If anyone wants to start saying anything else against Islam, they'd better have read the Holy Qur'an and actually make quotes from it, rather than just acting in a manner which, if attributed to something other than religion, would be considered both bigoted and racist.

[Dani]

In both muslims and jews religion their is a law you cant eat meat if the animal has not suffer by having their throat cut and bleed to death just that ONE singel fact about both their religion makes me sick and not whanting to "understand" their religion or co excist whit them.

In Norway we are 1 of 4 countrys in Europe to ban such animal abuse,here in Norway the jews has to order meat from the US and the muslims gets to halal slautger only if the animal is druged to sleep but seems that is not ok for many muslims here.

What did Gandi say about this

[TeeJay]

In both muslims and jews religion their is a law you cant eat meat if the animal has not suffer by having their throat cut and bleed to death just that ONE singel fact about both their religion makes me sick and not whanting to "understand" their religion or co excist whit them.

In the UK, pigs are slaughtered by being suspended by their back trotters, having a 12 inch blade rammed into their chest, and then bleeding to death. Neither Jews nor Muslims eat pork. Christians do though...

It is my understanding, that in the UK, animals killed in accordance with Islamic practice, are electronically stunned before being killed.

If someone does not like the method an animal is killed by, then they should avoid animal-based products all together. That is not religious issue, but one of personal morals. I am not someone who would tollerate any kind of animal cruelty, but I do accept that food beasts are raised and killed precicely for the purposes of supplying food, and are (or certainly should be) killed in as humane manner as possible. Having one's jugular vein slit, and instantly becoming unconscious and dying, is much less traumatic than being suspended by the back legs and having a 12 inch blade rammed into one's chest and then flopping about while bleeding to death.

[Edited to add]

I forgot to say, that the Holy Qur'an specifies, not only which animals are forbidden, but also prohibits eating animals which died in suffering, such as in a fall, or strangled or gored. Back in the time of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, slitting the juggular vein of an animal (and markedly different from simply "cutting it's throat") was the most humane method of dispatching a food beast.

What did Gandi say about this

I don't know, what did Ghandi say about it?

Edited December 1, 2007 by TeeJay

[ryyannon]

Swap around a few of the facts (but keeping the foreigner theme) and I wonder if the story could be transplanted to most countries.

Most countries where?

Zimbabwe or similar shiteholes?

How 'bout Australia.... Got machete?

I wonder if the story wasn't just given, you know, a little, itty bitty push...

That's a strange coincidence: I often wonder about the UFOs flying around the World Trade Center towers before they came down.

Cripes, C-Stone, watcha been smoking?

[Victoria]

I know you know, but just to keep the thing on topic we are of course talking about somewhere in Africa. And a teddy bear.

When I saw those people protesting it made me think of the kind of xenophobic vitriol you find in the Daily Mail or the media pretty much anywhere.

This is not remotely close to anything spewed by the Daily Hate and similar rags around Europe, Cornerstone. You tell me one EU administration which would encourage its citizens to shout death slogans against a woman, because on paper, they could give her the lash.

I understand that some people feel queasy at Western "triumphalism", and become moral relativists to compensate for that, but there are some things our societies have conquered, one bitter rung in the civilised ladder after another.

These people are about 300 years behind Westeners, just where we were around the Thirty Year's War.

It's going to be a long wait, watching them catch up on their own.

[Victoria]

Sorry, but that old expression "When in Rome..." comes to mind here.

Earlier, I had written then promptly deleted, "in our replies, please let's be aware that we have at least one prominent Muslim in the group", but I realised that sounded both out of place and preachy.

Just to let you know, this is why I am using the word zealots constantly, because I know YOU would never condone such an action, TeeJay. But then, you're a convert...

Just a few points, since on paper, you said some things I agree with otherwise.

Also, before people start getting all worked up about Islam and Muslims, just remember that these people in Sudan are about as 'Islamic', as the 'Christians' who live in the UK and US and never set foot in a church or observe any other religious holidays.

Generally these nominally "Christian" people don't use religion as their crutch, though. These people do.

I'm sure the people there go through all the motions involved with Islam, but in an indoctrinated way rather than one of personal choice.

Quite so, in madrassas the world over.

So where are the converts in this situation, petitioning, and calling for calm amongst their Umma? Surely they have some pull in the matter? Surely they must know that every time this happens, it makes the rest of them look bad?

Every one speaks of moderate Muslims, but moderate Muslims do not speak. This is the problem in this region.

[Emmzy]

Every one speaks of moderate Muslims, but moderate Muslims do not speak. This is the problem in this region.

Exactly my point Vic.

Just what is it the moderate Muslims are afraid of? They would gain so much respect if the waged a 'war' against the extremists.

Let's hear their voices on TV, in the press, etc.

[Pugwash]

This is not remotely close to anything spewed by the Daily Hate and similar rags around Europe, Cornerstone. You tell me one EU administration which would encourage its citizens to shout death slogans against a woman, because on paper, they could give her the lash.

Change the word "Blasphemer" to "Paedophile" and the vitriol is the same.

[Victoria]

Change the word "Blasphemer" to "Paedophile" and the vitriol is the same.

Change the word from Paedophile to Conservative and the vitriol is the same, in some other quarters.

[Pugwash]

Let's hear their voices on TV, in the press, etc.

It doesn't make for exciting news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7122562.stm

[Pugwash]

Change the word from Paedophile to Conservative and the vitriol is the same, in some other quarters.

No, you don't get people on the streets saying "Hang 'em high" about Conservatives. Maybe you missed the national rage over paedophiles in the UK a few years ago. It was exactly like the Teddy issue, apart from there were no machetes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/872436.stm

[Victoria]

Every one speaks of moderate Muslims, but moderate Muslims do not speak. This is the problem in this region.

Exactly my point Vic.

Just what is it the moderate Muslims are afraid of? They would gain so much respect if the waged a 'war' against the extremists.

Let's hear their voices on TV, in the press, etc.

Emmzy, they would be hunted down and killed. Not because ALL Muslims would be in favour of this. On the contrary. But it's enough that there are a few active zealots who the rest are scared of, to shut the moderates up. Obviously, I'm not speaking of the Sudanese in these crowd shots. They are numerous enough.

One thing is to be perceived as an unbeliever. It's quite another thing to be an apostate.

[Victoria]

No, you don't get people on the streets saying "Hang 'em high" about Conservatives. Maybe you missed the national rage over paedophiles in the UK a few years ago. It was exactly like the Teddy issue, apart from there were no machetes.

I have a cousin who was targetted at his University for being a Conservative (capital C) BY HIS PROFS, so let's just leave it at that.

Whatever outrage du jour we have in the UK, does not remotely resemble sentencing a woman to 90 lashes, and then deporting her from the country because she dared to name a teddy bear Mohammed, with calls for her death for good measure.

Unless you're making the argument that this "outrage" and the "outrage" at penetrating children's orifices is some way morally equivalent?

[Dani]

In the UK, pigs are slaughtered by being suspended by their back trotters, having a 12 inch blade rammed into their chest, and then bleeding to death. Neither Jews nor Muslims eat pork. Christians do though...

It is my understanding, that in the UK, animals killed in accordance with Islamic practice, are electronically stunned before being killed.

If someone does not like the method an animal is killed by, then they should avoid animal-based products all together. That is not religious issue, but one of personal morals. I am not someone who would tollerate any kind of animal cruelty, but I do accept that food beasts are raised and killed precicely for the purposes of supplying food, and are (or certainly should be) killed in as humane manner as possible. Having one's jugular vein slit, and instantly becoming unconscious and dying, is much less traumatic than being suspended by the back legs and having a 12 inch blade rammed into one's chest and then flopping about while bleeding to death.

[Edited to add]

I forgot to say, that the Holy Qur'an specifies, not only which animals are forbidden, but also prohibits eating animals which died in suffering, such as in a fall, or strangled or gored. Back in the time of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, slitting the juggular vein of an animal (and markedly different from simply "cutting it's throat") was the most humane method of dispatching a food beast.

I don't know, what did Ghandi say about it?

Gandi said a society will be judged by the way they treat the animals.I dont agree fully whit Mr.Gandi as i belive we are predators and meat eaters by nature but we shoud go forward not backwards when it comes to humanly slaughter animals.

So to avoid human nature as meat eater is not the way to go,but to expect people to have empati and humanly kill the animals is..

Jews and muslims have a way of slauther animals that is beyond crulety and that is just facts not fiction..

I can only speak about countrys i now but in Norway and Sweden animals get stunned to death is thakes maybe and at worst case senario 10sec to die,by having your throat cut it thakes much longer in a Kosher slaughter house in the US they filmed a calf suffer for over 5min and it even stand up on it legs

I have seen both humans and animals get their throat cut the way halal and kosher is done and its horribel to see even if its only on a pc screen..

But i dont see have my rant here will change this desert religions.

D

[DET11]

Lets not even get started about the way the Chinese treat their animals!

[Victoria]

But i dont see have my rant here will change this desert religions.

But you see, Dani, this is the mindset in Norway that allows your beloved breed of dog to be banned. Because they are thinking of the welfare of the dog, and its effect on society...

[Pugwash]

Whatever outrage du jour we have in the UK, does not remotely resemble sentencing a woman to 90 lashes, and then deporting her from the country because she dared to name a teddy bear Mohammed, with calls for her death for good measure.

Unless you're making the argument that this "outrage" and the "outrage" at penetrating children's orifices is some way morally equivalent?

Paedophilia: Something we find so morally repugnant that extremists call for executing the offenders.

Blasphemy: Something Muslims find so morally repugnant that extremists call for executing the offenders.

And she wasn't sentenced to 90 lashes. 15-days in prison isn't that far from western sentencing for some offences, like, for instance, a Judge imprisoning an entire courtroom (47 people) because one person's mobile phone went off.

[Victoria]

Paedophilia: Something we find so morally repugnant that extremists call for executing the offenders.

Blasphemy: Something Muslims find so morally repugnant that extremists call for executing the offenders.

Paedophilia in the West: If proven, allows the State/Crown to sentence you to a period of incarceration.

Blasphemy amongst Muslims: If even hinted at, allows the State/Crown to sentence you to death.

There is a big difference between mob rule and rule of law, but when there isn't, it's for the State to intervene.

Here the State is part of the mob.

And she wasn't sentenced to 90 lashes. 15-days in prison isn't that far from western sentencing for some offences, like, for instance, a Judge imprisoning an entire courtroom (47 people) because one person's mobile phone went off.

Recently, in Peru (I know this because I watch SUR, a round-up cable channel transmitting 24/7 coverage of all the Hispanic South American newscasts) a girl was expelled from San Martin de Porres University in Lima, because her mobile went off during class. One ring. She had forgotten that one time to turn it off. Her prof and Dean objected, and she was summarily sent down.

Bureaucratic excess is nothing new under the sun. It happens everywhere, even in my sainted "Western world" examples.

What is different is the lack of volubility amongst moderates. The lack of fair coverage towards the other side, by media. And the lack of balanced laws by the State.

I'm not saying CNN are suddenly going to present "The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)" in a positive light, but they will invite spokesmen on to support their points (disgusting though they are), and they will certainly refer to potential suicide bombers as freedom fighters.

[ryyannon]

Everyone here keeps saying that 'she' (the teacher) was the one who named the teddybear.

I have read elsewhere - on a news forum - that she asked the class to name it.

Meaning the idea came from the kids themselves.

If this was true, how the hell was she to know what she was setting herself up for?